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Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
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TardisCaptain Offline
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Exclamation Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?
04-02-2013 04:50 PM
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GSU Eagles Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 04:50 PM)TardisCaptain Wrote:  http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?

So FCS will implode because App and Ga Southern left. I feel very flattered.
04-02-2013 05:49 PM
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Theodoresdaddy Offline
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
wasn't this guy fired because of the rape scandal at Montana?
04-02-2013 06:37 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
Unless if the Sun Belt has to turn into the WAC to survive, most of the options will be limited for western schools. There really won't be an incentive to create another FBS conference because of how the new BCS structure is set until 2025. There could be a lot of schools upgrading in 2023 to get in for the next cycle.

If the Big 12 goes to 12, that should open the door for two more schools, and if the timing is right it could be C-USA robbing the cradle instead of the MAC or Sun Belt. If more AQ expansion happens an entire FCS conference could disappear by the time the bottom of FBS reloads.
04-02-2013 07:06 PM
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billings Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 04:50 PM)TardisCaptain Wrote:  http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?

No they fired Oday. He did think that Montana would have to move up one day but the new and current president does not think that way.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 07:22 PM by billings.)
04-02-2013 07:21 PM
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billings Offline
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 05:49 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 04:50 PM)TardisCaptain Wrote:  http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?

So FCS will implode because App and Ga Southern left. I feel very flattered.

here is FCS problem Montana averages about 25K for attendance. The playoffs are paid by teams with good attendance hosting games. Here is last years top 25. Who will host and make any money?

2012-2013 Top 25 attendance numbers: (minus Montana)

#1 North Dakota State - 18,516 - Won't be sticking in FCS for long if they remain successful
#2 Sam Houston State - 8,782
#3 Georgia Southern - 18,487 - Leaving FCS
#4 Eastern Washington - 8,089
#5 Montana State - 17,627
#6 Old Dominion - 20,037 - Gone
#7 Wofford - 7,690
#8 Appalachian State - 26,385 - Leaving FCS
#9 Illinois State - 6,512
#10 Central Arkansas - 8,550
#11 Cal Poly - 8,566
#12 Stony Brook - 5,826
#13 New Hampshire - 7,746
#14 Lehigh - 7,206
#15 Towson - 8,691
#16 Villanova - 7,144
#17 South Dakota State - 11,843
#18 Richmond - 8,700
#19 Eastern Kentucky - 9,800
#20 Northern Arizona - 6,787
#21 James Madison - 22,783 - Rumored to leave soon
#22 Wagner - 2,352
#23 Bethune-Cookman - 7,420
#24 Coastal Carolina - 8,030
#25 Harvard - 11,520 - Doesn't participate in the playoffs.
04-02-2013 07:25 PM
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CPslograd Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 07:25 PM)billings Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 05:49 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 04:50 PM)TardisCaptain Wrote:  http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?

So FCS will implode because App and Ga Southern left. I feel very flattered.

here is FCS problem Montana averages about 25K for attendance. The playoffs are paid by teams with good attendance hosting games. Here is last years top 25. Who will host and make any money?

2012-2013 Top 25 attendance numbers: (minus Montana)

#1 North Dakota State - 18,516 - Won't be sticking in FCS for long if they remain successful
#2 Sam Houston State - 8,782
#3 Georgia Southern - 18,487 - Leaving FCS
#4 Eastern Washington - 8,089
#5 Montana State - 17,627
#6 Old Dominion - 20,037 - Gone
#7 Wofford - 7,690
#8 Appalachian State - 26,385 - Leaving FCS
#9 Illinois State - 6,512
#10 Central Arkansas - 8,550
#11 Cal Poly - 8,566
#12 Stony Brook - 5,826
#13 New Hampshire - 7,746
#14 Lehigh - 7,206
#15 Towson - 8,691
#16 Villanova - 7,144
#17 South Dakota State - 11,843
#18 Richmond - 8,700
#19 Eastern Kentucky - 9,800
#20 Northern Arizona - 6,787
#21 James Madison - 22,783 - Rumored to leave soon
#22 Wagner - 2,352
#23 Bethune-Cookman - 7,420
#24 Coastal Carolina - 8,030
#25 Harvard - 11,520 - Doesn't participate in the playoffs.

I think the new FBS playoff payout that the 1AA schools are getting a small slice of will cover the FCS playoffs. But I agree with your premise, it's not the number of schools leaving that is a problem for FCS, it's the quality of the departing programs that is reaching a critical point for FCS. FCS can continue, but it is becoming a reduced product quickly.

Your chart is interesting. Montana no longer makes any sense as FCS. And NDSU and Montana State barely make sense still. But with the WAC gone not sure where they will go. Eventually maybe the SunBelt but that would only be after ULL and Ark State are gone. That could be soon, or could be years away.

Where is Liberty on this list, I thought they had good attendance? Thought Lamar's was fairly decent as well? Are you sure this list isn't just teams that made the playoffs or postseason?

edit: This is a link to the official attendance avgs last year. There are still a fair amount of teams in the 10-16k mark.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/a...NDANCE.pdf
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 07:52 PM by CPslograd.)
04-02-2013 07:48 PM
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CPslograd Offline
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 07:06 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Unless if the Sun Belt has to turn into the WAC to survive, most of the options will be limited for western schools. There really won't be an incentive to create another FBS conference because of how the new BCS structure is set until 2025. There could be a lot of schools upgrading in 2023 to get in for the next cycle.

If the Big 12 goes to 12, that should open the door for two more schools, and if the timing is right it could be C-USA robbing the cradle instead of the MAC or Sun Belt. If more AQ expansion happens an entire FCS conference could disappear by the time the bottom of FBS reloads.

Not sure what you mean. Why?
04-02-2013 08:15 PM
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billings Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 07:48 PM)CPslograd Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 07:25 PM)billings Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 05:49 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 04:50 PM)TardisCaptain Wrote:  http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?

So FCS will implode because App and Ga Southern left. I feel very flattered.

here is FCS problem Montana averages about 25K for attendance. The playoffs are paid by teams with good attendance hosting games. Here is last years top 25. Who will host and make any money?

2012-2013 Top 25 attendance numbers: (minus Montana)

#1 North Dakota State - 18,516 - Won't be sticking in FCS for long if they remain successful
#2 Sam Houston State - 8,782
#3 Georgia Southern - 18,487 - Leaving FCS
#4 Eastern Washington - 8,089
#5 Montana State - 17,627
#6 Old Dominion - 20,037 - Gone
#7 Wofford - 7,690
#8 Appalachian State - 26,385 - Leaving FCS
#9 Illinois State - 6,512
#10 Central Arkansas - 8,550
#11 Cal Poly - 8,566
#12 Stony Brook - 5,826
#13 New Hampshire - 7,746
#14 Lehigh - 7,206
#15 Towson - 8,691
#16 Villanova - 7,144
#17 South Dakota State - 11,843
#18 Richmond - 8,700
#19 Eastern Kentucky - 9,800
#20 Northern Arizona - 6,787
#21 James Madison - 22,783 - Rumored to leave soon
#22 Wagner - 2,352
#23 Bethune-Cookman - 7,420
#24 Coastal Carolina - 8,030
#25 Harvard - 11,520 - Doesn't participate in the playoffs.

I think the new FBS playoff payout that the 1AA schools are getting a small slice of will cover the FCS playoffs. But I agree with your premise, it's not the number of schools leaving that is a problem for FCS, it's the quality of the departing programs that is reaching a critical point for FCS. FCS can continue, but it is becoming a reduced product quickly.

Your chart is interesting. Montana no longer makes any sense as FCS. And NDSU and Montana State barely make sense still. But with the WAC gone not sure where they will go. Eventually maybe the SunBelt but that would only be after ULL and Ark State are gone. That could be soon, or could be years away.

Where is Liberty on this list, I thought they had good attendance? Thought Lamar's was fairly decent as well? Are you sure this list isn't just teams that made the playoffs or postseason?

edit: This is a link to the official attendance avgs last year. There are still a fair amount of teams in the 10-16k mark.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/a...NDANCE.pdf

I just posted teams attendance that were ranked in the top 25. My list was not top 25 attendance.
04-02-2013 08:25 PM
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jsualumnus Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 07:48 PM)CPslograd Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 07:25 PM)billings Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 05:49 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 04:50 PM)TardisCaptain Wrote:  http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2013/04/mo...-football/

Could this be a sign that Montana is looking at joining the big leagues? Could this open up the flood gates for Montana St, Northern Iowa, Portland St, some Cali schools and or some Dakota schools?

So FCS will implode because App and Ga Southern left. I feel very flattered.

here is FCS problem Montana averages about 25K for attendance. The playoffs are paid by teams with good attendance hosting games. Here is last years top 25. Who will host and make any money?

2012-2013 Top 25 attendance numbers: (minus Montana)

#1 North Dakota State - 18,516 - Won't be sticking in FCS for long if they remain successful
#2 Sam Houston State - 8,782
#3 Georgia Southern - 18,487 - Leaving FCS
#4 Eastern Washington - 8,089
#5 Montana State - 17,627
#6 Old Dominion - 20,037 - Gone
#7 Wofford - 7,690
#8 Appalachian State - 26,385 - Leaving FCS
#9 Illinois State - 6,512
#10 Central Arkansas - 8,550
#11 Cal Poly - 8,566
#12 Stony Brook - 5,826
#13 New Hampshire - 7,746
#14 Lehigh - 7,206
#15 Towson - 8,691
#16 Villanova - 7,144
#17 South Dakota State - 11,843
#18 Richmond - 8,700
#19 Eastern Kentucky - 9,800
#20 Northern Arizona - 6,787
#21 James Madison - 22,783 - Rumored to leave soon
#22 Wagner - 2,352
#23 Bethune-Cookman - 7,420
#24 Coastal Carolina - 8,030
#25 Harvard - 11,520 - Doesn't participate in the playoffs.

I think the new FBS playoff payout that the 1AA schools are getting a small slice of will cover the FCS playoffs. But I agree with your premise, it's not the number of schools leaving that is a problem for FCS, it's the quality of the departing programs that is reaching a critical point for FCS. FCS can continue, but it is becoming a reduced product quickly.

Your chart is interesting. Montana no longer makes any sense as FCS. And NDSU and Montana State barely make sense still. But with the WAC gone not sure where they will go. Eventually maybe the SunBelt but that would only be after ULL and Ark State are gone. That could be soon, or could be years away.

Where is Liberty on this list, I thought they had good attendance? Thought Lamar's was fairly decent as well? Are you sure this list isn't just teams that made the playoffs or postseason?

edit: This is a link to the official attendance avgs last year. There are still a fair amount of teams in the 10-16k mark.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/a...NDANCE.pdf

Yeah, but 9 of the Top 25 teams in the 2012 avg attendance are HBCU teams that will stay in the FCS for rivalries. Starting at the 16k mark would be JSU, then Liberty, followed by several HBCU's. Move on up to Montana St., North Dakota St., Delaware, Montana, and JMU...(the obvious moves up already taken out)...

1. Liberty is a private school which the Sun Belt may not want. (I like them)
2. The western schools aren't making any moves in the near future
3. Delaware could be MAC material, not Sun Belt
4. JMU is the most likely choice, but they aren't making a move until their study is completed and reviewed.
5. Jax State is ready to go now and would be an instant rival to Troy, Ga Southern, USA, and maybe even Ga. State...

Lamar's attendance was 11k+, Sam Houston was 8k+, JSU was 16k+ and should grow, and Liberty was just ahead of JSU with 16k+ also. Does the Sun Belt want to invite a private school...? (which would be the only private school...no offense Liberty fans as I am a fan of the school and what you stand for)...

I think Jax State will be one of most viable options here in the next few weeks.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 09:55 PM by jsualumnus.)
04-02-2013 09:52 PM
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Post: #11
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
CPslograd-Liberty averaged just over 16k.

I do think that it is interesting that Idaho's AD recently said this...

Quote:As you can see, conference revenue from being in an FBS conference is significant and most likely will influence other Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) schools to look at opportunities to join an FBS conference. As you know, the Sun Belt also announced that two premier FCS schools (Appalachian State and Georgia Southern) also will be joining its conference. The Big Sky is currently an FCS conference for football.

I predict that in the next 3-5 years you will see other FCS programs move to the FBS level and possibly form another FBS football league.

http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=11421547
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 10:31 PM by FargoBison.)
04-02-2013 09:54 PM
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
I would think the WAC could once again start sponsoring FBS football if enough schools were interested.
04-02-2013 10:21 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 09:54 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  Liberty averaged just over 16k.

I do think that it is interesting that Idaho's AD recently said this...

Quote:As you can see, conference revenue from being in an FBS conference is significant and most likely will influence other Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) schools to look at opportunities to join an FBS conference. As you know, the Sun Belt also announced that two premier FCS schools (Appalachian State and Georgia Southern) also will be joining its conference. The Big Sky is currently an FCS conference for football.

I predict that in the next 3-5 years you will see other FCS programs move to the FBS level and possibly form another FBS football league.

http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=11421547

The return of the WAC...COGS
04-02-2013 10:21 PM
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CPslograd Offline
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 10:21 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 09:54 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  Liberty averaged just over 16k.

I do think that it is interesting that Idaho's AD recently said this...

Quote:As you can see, conference revenue from being in an FBS conference is significant and most likely will influence other Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) schools to look at opportunities to join an FBS conference. As you know, the Sun Belt also announced that two premier FCS schools (Appalachian State and Georgia Southern) also will be joining its conference. The Big Sky is currently an FCS conference for football.

I predict that in the next 3-5 years you will see other FCS programs move to the FBS level and possibly form another FBS football league.

http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=11421547

The return of the WAC...COGS

What's funny to me, is that the WAC leftovers turned their nose up at the non BSC options like Lamar and JSU. But they're joining the Belt which is now largely FCS moveups and likely to have even more moveups. They should have freaking invited Lamar a couple years ago. And JSU for football only. Then maybe TxSt would have stayed and the WAC could have added NDSU and a couple of other schools. I'm not a Benson fan but the WAC screwed up by not listening to him in this case. Not inviting Lamar was D-U-M-B.
04-02-2013 11:52 PM
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 09:52 PM)jsualumnus Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 07:48 PM)CPslograd Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 07:25 PM)billings Wrote:  here is FCS problem Montana averages about 25K for attendance. The playoffs are paid by teams with good attendance hosting games. Here is last years top 25. Who will host and make any money?

Where is Liberty on this list, I thought they had good attendance? Thought Lamar's was fairly decent as well? Are you sure this list isn't just teams that made the playoffs or postseason?

Yeah, but 9 of the Top 25 teams in the 2012 avg attendance are HBCU teams that will stay in the FCS for rivalries.
Lamar's attendance was 11k+, Sam Houston was 8k+, JSU was 16k+ and should grow, and Liberty was just ahead of JSU with 16k+ also. Does the Sun Belt want to invite a private school...? (which would be the only private school...no offense Liberty fans as I am a fan of the school and what you stand for)...

Billings's point was regarding the FCS Playoffs, which are similar to the NIT Basketball Tournament in that the home team has to pay the NCAA money to host the games and cover the visiting team's travel costs. Attendance, particularly in the first round, tends to be low, so some teams opt not to bid anything and voluntarily play road games.

Many HBCUs have decent attendance, but of the two HBCU conferences, the SWAC does not participate in the playoffs and the MEAC rarely gets more than its AQ into the playoffs. Liberty and Lamar have never made the playoffs. The 2 or 3 decent attendance Ivies do not participate in the playoffs. The list of semi-regular playoff contenders who also have high enough attendance to justify paying a lot for a home game is down to Montana, Delaware, maybe JMU, Northern Iowa, and NDSU. There might be a couple others I'm forgetting. Is Montana State a postseason regular?

Anyway, the point is that there aren't going to as many teams bidding for games anymore, which is going to keep bids down, which means FCS will likely be spending more money on travel than they make off the games. That's going to put pressure on the system, which recently expanded from a 16 team tournament to a 20 team tournament, and is expected to reach 24 soon to create more AQ spots for conferences which don't have AQs.
04-03-2013 08:15 AM
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jsualumnus Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-03-2013 08:15 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 09:52 PM)jsualumnus Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 07:48 PM)CPslograd Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 07:25 PM)billings Wrote:  here is FCS problem Montana averages about 25K for attendance. The playoffs are paid by teams with good attendance hosting games. Here is last years top 25. Who will host and make any money?

Where is Liberty on this list, I thought they had good attendance? Thought Lamar's was fairly decent as well? Are you sure this list isn't just teams that made the playoffs or postseason?

Yeah, but 9 of the Top 25 teams in the 2012 avg attendance are HBCU teams that will stay in the FCS for rivalries.
Lamar's attendance was 11k+, Sam Houston was 8k+, JSU was 16k+ and should grow, and Liberty was just ahead of JSU with 16k+ also. Does the Sun Belt want to invite a private school...? (which would be the only private school...no offense Liberty fans as I am a fan of the school and what you stand for)...

Billings's point was regarding the FCS Playoffs, which are similar to the NIT Basketball Tournament in that the home team has to pay the NCAA money to host the games and cover the visiting team's travel costs. Attendance, particularly in the first round, tends to be low, so some teams opt not to bid anything and voluntarily play road games.

Many HBCUs have decent attendance, but of the two HBCU conferences, the SWAC does not participate in the playoffs and the MEAC rarely gets more than its AQ into the playoffs. Liberty and Lamar have never made the playoffs. The 2 or 3 decent attendance Ivies do not participate in the playoffs. The list of semi-regular playoff contenders who also have high enough attendance to justify paying a lot for a home game is down to Montana, Delaware, maybe JMU, Northern Iowa, and NDSU. There might be a couple others I'm forgetting. Is Montana State a postseason regular?

Anyway, the point is that there aren't going to as many teams bidding for games anymore, which is going to keep bids down, which means FCS will likely be spending more money on travel than they make off the games. That's going to put pressure on the system, which recently expanded from a 16 team tournament to a 20 team tournament, and is expected to reach 24 soon to create more AQ spots for conferences which don't have AQs.

"...Is Montana State a postseason regular?"

They made the playoffs in 1984, 2002, 2003, 2006, and 2012...FCS. They had a really good team last year and lost to Sam Houston in the 3rd round of the playoffs...
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 11:19 AM by jsualumnus.)
04-03-2013 11:18 AM
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Post: #17
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-02-2013 11:52 PM)CPslograd Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 10:21 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 09:54 PM)FargoBison Wrote:  Liberty averaged just over 16k.

I do think that it is interesting that Idaho's AD recently said this...

Quote:As you can see, conference revenue from being in an FBS conference is significant and most likely will influence other Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) schools to look at opportunities to join an FBS conference. As you know, the Sun Belt also announced that two premier FCS schools (Appalachian State and Georgia Southern) also will be joining its conference. The Big Sky is currently an FCS conference for football.

I predict that in the next 3-5 years you will see other FCS programs move to the FBS level and possibly form another FBS football league.

http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=11421547

The return of the WAC...COGS

What's funny to me, is that the WAC leftovers turned their nose up at the non BSC options like Lamar and JSU. But they're joining the Belt which is now largely FCS moveups and likely to have even more moveups. They should have freaking invited Lamar a couple years ago. And JSU for football only. Then maybe TxSt would have stayed and the WAC could have added NDSU and a couple of other schools. I'm not a Benson fan but the WAC screwed up by not listening to him in this case. Not inviting Lamar was D-U-M-B.

I doubt adding Lamar would have had any effect on getting western schools to move up. If they had been added, there would have been 3 homeless at the time instead of the 2.
04-03-2013 11:33 AM
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Post: #18
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
What the WAC needed was Montana. That would have gotten NDSU's attention.
04-03-2013 11:56 AM
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RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
(04-03-2013 11:56 AM)FargoBison Wrote:  What the WAC needed was Montana. That would have gotten NDSU's attention.

What Montana and the WAC needed was time. Lamar and JSU could have bought time. If NDSU is waiting on Montana then they are in the same boat as all the BSC schools. Not sure why everyone out west is letting Missoula dictate.
04-03-2013 01:19 PM
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dtd_vandal Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Jim O'Day's article on FCS football
What the WAC needed was a hard commit from Montana and Montana St. This would have put more pressure on the other move-ups that may have been on the fence (Sac St., UC Davis, Cal Poly, Portland St., NDSU, etc.). If that would have happened, Lamar could have then been added and the makings of a restructured conference in place. Instead, Montana declined and the WAC was forced to add all the AAA schools to remain a conference for everything but football and leaving little to no options for western move-ups in the foreseeable future.
04-03-2013 01:42 PM
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