Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

We are not helping ourselves at all. There are already 9 teams that have recently began the transition from FCS to FBS with talks of more on the way.

That's an entire conference worth of FCS schools we've invited ove the last couple of years to share our revenue and exposure with all so we could keep 5 non-AQ conferences when we only need 4.

If it's too late to kick the 9+ newbies back down to FCS can we at least stop with the new additions? Its getting ridiculous.

(04-13-2013 09:32 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

We are not helping ourselves at all. There are already 9 teams that have recently began the transition from FCS to FBS with talks of more on the way.

That's an entire conference worth of FCS schools we've invited ove the last couple of years to share our revenue and exposure with all so we could keep 5 non-AQ conferences when we only need 4.

If it's too late to kick the 9+ newbies back down to FCS can we at least stop with the new additions? Its getting ridiculous.

For every addition by the Big 10, the SEC, and the former Pac 10, there will be at least one FCS team moving up. Couple that with the promise of $1 mill per FBS team in lower conferences, and the need for FBS teams playing lower FBS teams at home, and there is a perfect recipe for moving up that the upper conferences themselves created.

Schools moving from FCS to FBS will hasten the big schools eventually breaking away from the pack and forming a "Junior NFL".

That will kill college football as we know it. And millions of fans will tune out.

Well if conferences are losing schools to other conferences, you can't expect them to just sit with their remaining teams, in most cases they need to add some teams, and FCS is the only likely place for most non-AQ conferences.

I like it, who are we to say that a school should not have the shot at the big time?

Listen, power conference fans, if you don't like it, there's a very simple solution: STOP RAIDING LOWER CONFERENCES!

You just helped kill off an entire conference with the demise of the WAC through the trickle down effect of your raiding. Do you know how hard it is to form a brand new FBS conference? You've probably reduced the total number of FBS conferences to 10 permanently, unless you manage to kill off the Sun Belt too. That amounts to a permanent reduction in the maximum number of FBS teams there can be, because you just rammed through a rule which requires an invitation from a FBS conference to move from FCS to FBS. Lower tier conferences have no reason to expand beyond 12 members, unless they anticipate being raided by you again. So once they're full, they're full.

Here's another thought: Aren't football payouts distributed by number of conferences rather than by number of members? In which case, you're already ahead of the game by killing the WAC even if the Sun Belt expands to 24 teams. TV contracts for power conference college football are by far the highest they've ever been in history. You have almost total control of the post season. You don't have a single thing to complain about.

This surge in FCS moves is just a temporary thing anyway, provided there's no more RAIDING. There was a 4 year moratorium on FCS moves that only expired last year which bottlenecked some moves, and then this new conference invitation rule along with the death of the WAC created a sudden scarcity of FBS spots. If you don't move to FBS right this very second, you may never get to, so everyone conceivably capable of doing it is leaping at the chance. Once the bottom tier conferences are full, that's the end, forever. Until you raid them again.

I hate "backfilling" and anyone who uses that word. Sunbelt is the lowest on the totem poll so they are forced to backfill with FCS schools.

When you raid a conference they will replace...and then there is whining that the conference you raided didn't lay down and die for your convenience?

lol...enjoy the world you made.

(04-13-2013 11:32 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  Listen, power conference fans, if you don't like it, there's a very simple solution: STOP RAIDING LOWER CONFERENCES!

You just helped kill off an entire conference with the demise of the WAC through the trickle down effect of your raiding.

No, that's not how WAC football died.

WAC football would still be alive and kicking, even after the departures of Utah and TCU, except for two things:

(1) Karl Benson's "Project" blew up in the WAC's face and the result was the MWC inviting Fresno and Nevada, intentionally crippling the WAC so that BYU wouldn't move to the WAC. (BYU ended up in neither league, of course.)

(2) The Marinatto-led Big East foolishly invited Boise and SDSU to join, resulting in the MWC replacing Boise and SDSU with SJSU and USU from the WAC. Of course Boise and SDSU ended up staying in the MWC anyway, so adding SJSU and USU turned out to be unnecessary, but the damage to the WAC was done and it was the final, fatal blow to WAC football.

If the Big East never embarks on its ill-fated Boise adventure, then SJSU and USU are still in the WAC, and WAC football is still alive.

If Benson doesn't try his hare-brained scheme to lure BYU into the WAC, then the MWC might not have invited Fresno and Nevada.

For that matter, if enough Big Sky schools had fevered dreams of BCS glory like many of their FCS counterparts in the south, then WAC football might still be around even without Fresno, Nevada, SJSU, and USU.

So, you can point your finger in many different directions if you want someone to blame for the end of WAC football -- but this is one thing you cannot credibly blame on any of the five "power conferences".

(04-13-2013 11:32 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  Listen, power conference fans, if you don't like it, there's a very simple solution: STOP RAIDING LOWER CONFERENCES!

You just helped kill off an entire conference with the demise of the WAC through the trickle down effect of your raiding. Do you know how hard it is to form a brand new FBS conference? You've probably reduced the total number of FBS conferences to 10 permanently, unless you manage to kill off the Sun Belt too. That amounts to a permanent reduction in the maximum number of FBS teams there can be, because you just rammed through a rule which requires an invitation from a FBS conference to move from FCS to FBS. Lower tier conferences have no reason to expand beyond 12 members, unless they anticipate being raided by you again. So once they're full, they're full.

Here's another thought: Aren't football payouts distributed by number of conferences rather than by number of members? In which case, you're already ahead of the game by killing the WAC even if the Sun Belt expands to 24 teams. TV contracts for power conference college football are by far the highest they've ever been in history. You have almost total control of the post season. You don't have a single thing to complain about.

This surge in FCS moves is just a temporary thing anyway, provided there's no more RAIDING. There was a 4 year moratorium on FCS moves that only expired last year which bottlenecked some moves, and then this new conference invitation rule along with the death of the WAC created a sudden scarcity of FBS spots. If you don't move to FBS right this very second, you may never get to, so everyone conceivably capable of doing it is leaping at the chance. Once the bottom tier conferences are full, that's the end, forever. Until you raid them again.

The thing is---we don't need more FBS schools. There's plenty. The G5 just needs to be more organized so that nobody is left homeless. Be it a G2 or a G5 or any number in between--- the number of conferences doesn't really matter. We need to stop diluting FBS just so we have can have 5 non-AQ conferences. There's nothing magical about that number. For instance, it would have been way better for everyone had CUSA and the MW merged. Instead they got all hyped over a handful of NCAA credits. It worked out ok for the MW, but not so great for CUSA and the Sunbelt (at least in the short term). Worked out terrible for the WAC. I think a CUSA/Sunbelt merger would have made more sense (after the MW merger fell through) than all these FCS call-ups.

(04-14-2013 01:10 AM)Wedge Wrote:  So, you can point your finger in many different directions if you want someone to blame for the end of WAC football -- but this is one thing you cannot credibly blame on any of the five "power conferences".

BYU never would have lost its mind and gone rogue if the Pac-12 hadn't invited Utah.

The Pac-12's failed attempt to raid Texas etc. from the Big 12 is what led to the new Big 12 TV deal, which pissed off Texas A&M because it gave Texas such favorable terms, leading Texas A&M to move to the SEC.

This caused the SEC to need a 14th team, picking up Missouri.

This caused the Big 12 to need another team to get back to 10, picking up TCU.

This created the openings in the Mountain West to raid Nevada and Fresno.

Nobody raided the Pac-12, but their discontent with having only 10 members can be traced back to jealousy of the Big Ten's disproportionate new revenue streams.

The Big Ten had recently raided Nebraska, creating the instability that made the Pac-12 think Texas could be poached, though they ultimately ended up with only Colorado.

The Big Ten needed a 12th member because they had 11 due to Penn State.

They had Penn State because a bunch of non-football-playing Catholic schools blocked Penn State's admission to the Big East.

The Big East rift caused by the Penn State decision set the stage for the ACC raids.

The Big East replaced members lost to the ACC from the MWC (temporarily) and CUSA.

The MWC replaced lost members from the WAC.

CUSA replaced lost members from the WAC, Sun Belt and FCS.

The Sun Belt replaced lost members from the WAC and FCS.

Every single conference except the MAC had a hand in the death of the WAC, but ultimately it started at the top, with the Pac-12 owning the distinction of creating the most chaos without provocation.


EDIT: I forgot about the Big 12 raiding the Big East and the Big East raiding TCU before the Big 12 did, but the basic principle of causation remains intact.

(04-13-2013 09:50 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Schools moving from FCS to FBS will hasten the big schools eventually breaking away from the pack and forming a "Junior NFL".

That will kill college football as we know it. And millions of fans will tune out.

So, just to be clear, when the "Big 5" decide that they can handle losing tax-exempt status and they break from the NCAA, their motivation will be to protect the integrity of college football which is under assault from small schools who have abandoned all principles for the chance to get their greedy little paws on some cash? I'd love to be a fly on the wall at The Boys Club when those fat cats from Appy St., Georgia Southern, James Madison, and the rest choke on their cigars and Courvoisier upon hearing the announcement from the Cartel that they can no longer stand idle as their decades of efforts imbuing college football with integrity and purity of purpose are systematically undone.

Vive la révolution!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

(04-13-2013 09:32 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

We are not helping ourselves at all. There are already 9 teams that have recently began the transition from FCS to FBS with talks of more on the way.

That's an entire conference worth of FCS schools we've invited ove the last couple of years to share our revenue and exposure with all so we could keep 5 non-AQ conferences when we only need 4.

If it's too late to kick the 9+ newbies back down to FCS can we at least stop with the new additions? Its getting ridiculous.

It's a free market. Were you complaining when the BIG expanded and added a CCG? If lower level schools have the resources to move up and compete on a higher level they should be allowed to do so.

(04-13-2013 09:32 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

My only question here is, who is this "we" you speak of?

Its silly to pretend that the "adding new markets" is the driving force for the call-ups. The driving force for the call-ups are the efforts of Mid-Major FBS conferences to survive while coping with the aftershocks of Major FBS conference expansion.

If Major FBS conference expansion stops, the FCS call-ups will come to a stop shortly thereafter.

So in the end this is a call for "can we please stop the game of Major FBS conference realignment", and while I'm all for it, its not quite clear who this "we" is on this board who is doing the game of Major FBS conference realignment and who can therefore stop doing it.

(04-14-2013 09:25 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-13-2013 09:32 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

My only question here is, who is this "we" you speak of?

Its silly to pretend that the "adding new markets" is the driving force for the call-ups. The driving force for the call-ups are the efforts of Mid-Major FBS conferences to survive while coping with the aftershocks of Major FBS conference expansion.

If Major FBS conference expansion stops, the FCS call-ups will come to a stop shortly thereafter.

So in the end this is a call for "can we please stop the game of Major FBS conference realignment", and while I'm all for it, its not quite clear who this "we" is on this board who is doing the game of Major FBS conference realignment and who can therefore stop doing it.

I think the whole points, how many overlapping non-AQ conferences are rally needed to give everyone a home? Do we really need a MAC, Sunbelt, CUSA, and a AAC? Probably not.

What we really need is a serious meeting of the G5 schools where all exit and entry fees are suspended. Have tv people there. Let the schools that want to be together be together. Reorganize and hopefully come up with new conference lineups that make sense for everyone and cut costs while allowing like universities to associate. Make it a week long and have tv people and NCAA there to aid in the decision making. The only rule is that at the end of the conference, everyone has a home. The goal is ending the stream of FCS move ups. After this conclave there is a moratorium on move ups. Come to think of it, maybe the power 5 should have one of one of these too (before the G5 has theirs).

(04-13-2013 11:19 PM)gatek99 Wrote:  I like it, who are we to say that a school should not have the shot at the big time?

+3 Spot on!

(04-14-2013 02:12 AM)LastMinuteman Wrote:  BYU never would have lost its mind and gone rogue if the Pac-12 hadn't invited Utah.

The Pac-12's failed attempt to raid Texas etc. from the Big 12 is what led to the new Big 12 TV deal, which pissed off Texas A&M because it gave Texas such favorable terms, leading Texas A&M to move to the SEC.

Really have your facts wrong. The Pac 16 idea got A&M thinking and they decided at the time the Pac 16 fell through to go to the SEC according to their President. They just didn't act for another year. The new Big 12 TV deal was less favorable to Texas than the previous deal (and less favorable to A&M). It shared the revenues equally rather than basing it partly on appearances as the previous deal did. Instead of the Baylors and ISUs getting 70% of the average and Texas, OU and Kansas getting 120% of the average, everyone got the same.

There may be more overall schools in FBS but I think the G5 made out well here since the WAC got crushed.

The non-AQ hierarchy before:

7. Mountain West (BYU, Utah, TCU)
8. Conference USA (Houston, Tulsa, UCF)
9. Western Athletic (Boise, Fresno, Nevada)
10. Mid American (Ohio, Toledo, NIU)
11. Sun Belt (MTSU, ULL, Ark St)

The G5 hierarchy after:

6. American Athletic (Houston, Cincinnati, Navy)
7. Mountain West (Boise, Fresno, Air Force)
8. Mid American (Ohio, Toledo, NIU)
9. Conference USA (Marshall, La Tech, USM)
10. Sun Belt (Ark St, ULL, App St)

The G5 collectively is a lot stronger than it was before. The AQ leagues almost have to play the AAC in a few bowl games therefore pushing the MAC up the bowl selection ladder.

If the performance of the old non-AQ group was enough to force an automatic bid to a 6 bowl CFP system I could see in another 6 years the system expanded to 8 bowls and 2 automatic bids for the G5.

Orange Bowl (Miami)
Citrus Bowl (Orlando)
Peach Bowl (Atlanta)
Sugar Bowl (New Orleans)
Cotton Bowl (Dallas)
Fiesta Bowl (Phoenix)
Holiday Bowl (San Diego)
Rose Bowl (Los Angeles)

If you make it an 8 bowl system and give a bowl like the Holiday a secondary agreement like PAC/B12 which those leagues would desire after watching the SEC/B1G partner in the Rose Bowl then you have a set of 8 games that represents the largest and best bowl markets.

The remaining AQ bowls with pre-90's tradition (Gator, Sun) lack the market to be viable CFP bowls. The Citrus and Holiday are the only ones with the market to be viable, IMO.

I think over the next 6 years you'll have some G5 teams left out of a CFP bowl ranked #16 or higher bumped by a Top 10 AAC or MWC team which will lead to a second automatic bid over say elevating the AAC/MWC to AQ status.

(04-13-2013 09:32 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

We are not helping ourselves at all. There are already 9 teams that have recently began the transition from FCS to FBS with talks of more on the way.

That's an entire conference worth of FCS schools we've invited ove the last couple of years to share our revenue and exposure with all so we could keep 5 non-AQ conferences when we only need 4.

If it's too late to kick the 9+ newbies back down to FCS can we at least stop with the new additions? Its getting ridiculous.

Based on the NCAA's 2011 attendance report (the most recent that I could find), four of those newbies you consider yourselves above (Appalachian State, UTSA, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion) would be above the MAC's average. App State and UTSA would lead the conference easily among current members, and so would James Madison if they moved up. ODU would be second, and that's with a small stadium as a rate limiter.

I'm sorry, but you're not really in a position to get all haughty about FCS callups diluting the pristine waters of the FBS.

(04-13-2013 09:32 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Can we please stop diluting FBS by calling up every community college with a goal post in the name of "adding new markets"?

We are not helping ourselves at all. There are already 9 teams that have recently began the transition from FCS to FBS with talks of more on the way.

That's an entire conference worth of FCS schools we've invited ove the last couple of years to share our revenue and exposure with all so we could keep 5 non-AQ conferences when we only need 4.

If it's too late to kick the 9+ newbies back down to FCS can we at least stop with the new additions? Its getting ridiculous.

10 conferences in FBS is about right.

The problem is when you drop to 9 or 8 conferences is who will everyone play? The MAC can't just play CUSA in 4 bowl games.

The rule should have always been that a move to FBS requires an invite from a current FBS conference. If that would of been in place programs like Akron, Troy and ULM would have never moved up.

The Sun Belt would have never formed. CUSA would have been forced to reload with existing FBS teams like ULL. UCF probably would have been invited to the FBS ranks and Marshall to the MAC.

The most recent problem is when CUSA decided to invite Charlotte and ODU to FBS instead of adding WKU/MTSU. That was completely unnecessary to grow to 14 with FCS schools like that.

FCS upgrade problem can be fixed if UMass moved to the SBC, taking the MAC down to 12 and forever locking in its membership. With the MAC, AAC and MWC locked at 12 when the next raid comes hopefully CUSA sees the wisdom of 12.