Adding Navy as an all-sport member?

(06-15-2013 05:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Adding Navy as an all-sport member?

Yeah that would be funny if somebody suggested that.

Love the maps GTS. Excellent work!

That said, I really don't understand the need/desire to "fill in the map". UofL wasn't invited to the ACC because of some need to connect Indiana (Notre Dame) to the rest of the conference. It wasn't invited because Kentucky is a contiguous state to Virginia. UofL was invited to the conference because the ACC felt UofL was the best candidate for membership.

Geography is nice but in my mind it takes a back seat to things like overall athletic success, financial and community support, TV appeal (which is not the same thing as home TV market), and the ability to increase (or at least not decrease) conference revenues. If Texas wanted to join the ACC as a full member (and I am not saying they do), would anyone say "No thanks, you aren't in our footprint".

(06-15-2013 05:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Adding Navy as an all-sport member?

The best move for ACC now is to add Cincinnati, UConn and West Virginia as full members and Navy as football only member. This will destablize Big 12 because they lose West Virgina and no available replacment. Then Kansas will move to B1G. Texas and Oklahoma have to choose among Pac12, B1G and SEC. And Power of Five becomes Power of Four.

(06-15-2013 11:14 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(06-15-2013 05:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Adding Navy as an all-sport member?

Yeah that would be funny if somebody suggested that.

It has been suggested multiple times on this board...

(04-29-2013 12:37 PM)esayem Wrote:  I don't really get the Cincy fascination. Philly > Cincy

I think it is a combination of four things mainly.

#1. Cincinnati has had a lot of recent football success. Since 2008, they've had four 10+ win seasons, claimed an outright or shared Big East championship four times, played in two BCS bowls, and finished in the Top 25 four times. That is much better than UofL's record over the same time period and probably better than most every ACC team's record as well.

#2. The belief that having an in-state school will automatically unlock recruiting for the conference in that state. Ohio is one of the most talent rich states for football in the entire country and high school football in Cincinnati is huge.

#3. Some of the schools in the conference have a history with UC. UofL has been a regular conference mate of UC's since around the mid 1960s so there is a lot of history between the schools.

#4. There isn't an obvious solution that is realistically available. Notre Dame isn't going to join unless it is forced to do so by something outside of its own power. Schools like Penn St, Texas, etc have no financial or institutional/cultural incentives to jump leagues and are also bound by GOR agreements. That means that if you want to discuss realistic expansion, you are left talking either about schools that are presently available and willing (Temple, UC, UConn, etc) or that are not presently available but would probably be willing in the future (WVU).

(04-30-2013 12:58 PM)Bearcat T Wrote:  Cincinnati is a metro area of over 2.5 million people. You have nothing in northern KY a Cincinnati suburb booming area 3 miles from our campus.
You have nothing in Southeast Indiana a Cincy suburb you have nothing in southern ohio to West Virginia. That is All Cincy TV market.

#1. That actually is false. Louisville does get occasional press in northern Kentucky and Cincinnati via the Enquirer. Does UofL get as much coverage as UK, the Reds, the Bengals, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Xavier, or UC? No. But they do get occasional coverage. UofL also has WCKY 1530 AM in Cincinnati as a radio affiliate.

Also, UC is not very popular at all in northern Kentucky. UK, the Bengals, and the Reds are the three most popular teams in northern Kentucky with everyone else pretty far behind. Check out the sports tab at the Kentucky enquirer and you'll see tabs for UK, the Reds, and the Bengals but nothing for UC.

#2. UC's TV market does not stretch to West Virginia. Here is a map of Ohio showing all of the state's counties. This map shows Cincinnati's total television market while this one shows what Ohio counties fall into Cincinnati's TV market. UC's TV market doesn't cover all of southern Ohio to West Virginia.

#3. The ACC has nothing in Los Angeles, Dallas-Fort Worth, San Francisco, Houston, Detroit, Phoenix, Seattle, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Cleveland, Denver, Sacramento, Saint Louis, Portland, Baltimore, San Diego, Nashville, Hartford, Kansas City, or Salt Lake City (all of which are bigger than Cincinnati's). That doesn't mean the ACC needs to run out and add a program in any of them.

(04-30-2013 12:58 PM)Bearcat T Wrote:  You also could really use an annual top 25 Football program to compete against the other Bigs...We already have beaten a good portion of these teams in the last five years, Syracuse about 4 times Pitt about four times, UL about three times, Duke last year with out a coach!, N C State split with 2 of last 3 years, VA Tech last year. In football we would be a perfect addition. In basketball we don't even need to go over wins over NC. NC State, Wake, Fla State, Duke, UL, Pitt, Syracuse, etc .........I don't think anyone in the nation thinks of Cincy as a MAC School. In the last two tears alone Cincy is one of six schools to be ranked in top 25 in both sports.

One of the main problems is that it is easy to over-emphasize recent success in football and potential recruiting gains while overlooking other qualities that are just as important. For example, UC's reported athletic budget for the 2011-2012 fiscal year was $39,577,731. That is significantly less than Louisville ($84,483,791), Syracuse ($69,187,052), and Pitt ($56,338,449) and suggests that UC may not have the financial means to maintain its current success long term (link to data).

Besides a lack of financial resources, UC also has issues with fan support. UC's alumni association reports that the number of living alumni is more than 260,000 with approximately half (131,000) residing in the greater Cincinnati area (link). Despite a large local alumni base and a tremendous amount of recent success, the Bearcats still struggle to sell out their 35,000-seat stadium on a consistent basis. According to their AD, they were about 83 percent full on their bleacher seating this past season and didn't sell out one game (link). It isn't like UC was having a bad season either as they started out 5-0 and finished the regular season with a 9-3 record. In 2011, the Bearcats drew only 40,971 fans to watch UC play rival Louisville at 65,000 seat Paul Brown Stadium on a Saturday afternoon (link). Basketball has similar support issues as UC averaged only 8,069 fans in the 13,176 seat Fifth Third Arena last seasonlink.

Furthermore, UC hasn't really had a lot of recent success outside of football. UC has 7 total Big East titles since joining the conference in 2006 and only three of those are outside of football (2 regular season titles in women's volleyball and 1 regular season title in men's soccer). I realize that that is due in large part to the 2009 decision to reduced scholarship funding for Olympic sports and eliminate all scholarships for men’s cross country, men’s track and field and men’s swimming and diving. However, it also illustrates the point above about lacking the financial means to run a successful athletic department long term. In men's basketball, the Bearcats made the tournament three times and only advanced to the sweet sixteen once.

As for opening up Ohio recruiting, I don't really buy that argument for a few reasons (I know you didn't make that argument but I see it brought up a lot). First, the Big Ten heavily recruits the state of Ohio and a lot of kids in the state grow up on Big Ten football. I'm not sure ACC teams are going to start regularly landing Ohio recruits over schools like Ohio St, Michigan, etc just because UC is a member of the conference. Having UC as a member of the Big East might have helped UC recruit local/Ohio kids, but it didn't really result in a huge uptick in Ohio recruits for other Big East schools. Is getting 2-3 extra recruits a year (if that) worth the cost of admission? Third, you have two, soon-to-be ACC members sitting right on the border of Ohio. Louisville is a 1.5 hour drive to Cincinnati and Pitt is less than an hour away from the Ohio state line. Pittsburgh is actually closer to northeastern Ohio than Cincinnati is. Having Cincy out of the top 5 conferences might actually help schools like Pitt and UL to out recruit them for Ohio recruits.

(04-30-2013 01:57 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  This may be one reason Cincinnati doesn't get the credit it deserves

I think the biggest reason UC hasn't gotten as much respect as it is due is because of its BCS bowl games. Because Big East football tended to be viewed as a sub-par conference, I think the media and a lot of casual fans tend to put more emphasis on OOC game/bowl game results than regular season results. Losing by 13 to VTech in the 2009 Orange Bowl and by 27 to Florida in the 2010 Sugar Bowl didn't do much to elevate the image of the UC's program and I think those two losses stand out more than the Big East championships UC won.

Case in point is Louisville. I think a lot of people in the media perceive UofL to be a better football program than UC even though in reality, UC has been much better over the last 5 years. I think a big part of that is because UofL is 2-0 in its BCS games while UC is 0-2. Look how much pre-season hype UofL has gotten since beating Florida and how quickly people have forgotten the spanking from Cuse and the head-scratching loss to UConn.

(04-30-2013 01:57 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  the UC TV market is actually divided across several states. UC can't win its own state, but when you combine them all Bearcat Nation is pretty big.
(Still, there is that embarrassingly low home attendance)

#1. I think UC Track and Field coach Bill Schnier summed it up pretty well. “If you look at the prototype of the big-time college program in Division I, it usually is in a college town, set aside for that university, centered around that university. In most cases, they are the flagship school of the state. [UC is] in-between. We’re in a larger city. We have lots of competition. We don’t even have the whole attention of our whole community because there’s also Xavier. There’s also Miami. There’s also Ohio State. So when you look at our fan base, to an extent, we’re painted into a corner and the corner is divided by the state lines.” (link)

The big problem for UC is that it has tons of competition in its own market. Cincinnati is a pro-sports market and the Bengals and Reds are very popular. UK is hugely popular in northern Kentucky and Ohio State and Notre Dame both have a lot of fans on the Ohio side. Then you have in-city rival Xavier competing for attention during basketball.

#2. Don't conflate the size of a TV market with the size of a fan base. Just because a TV market is large does not mean that the fan base is big (case in point: Temple).

(06-14-2013 06:27 PM)omniorange Wrote:  Since ND isn't happening and neither is my preferred PSU/MD happening, the ACC should just bite the bullet and add WVU and Cincy for all sports and either Georgetown or UConn for all sports but football. The latter assumes UConn would be willing to abandon football.

Cheers,
Neil

My question is why does the ACC need to do this?

We don't need to do it! That's why I don't understand people that keep suggesting Cincinnati. Cincinnati is a less prestigious Wake Forest and they aren't going to magically make an ACC presence in Ohio.

If Notre Dame ever joins for football, which I doubt they will, I think Navy (football-only) would be a good companion. That is assuming Texas is not involved.

LOL. Cincinnati sure does seem to get a lot more mentions on this board than ACC programs like Wake, NC State and Boston College!

The ACC is at 14 full members + Notre Dame, correct? I just don't see Notre Dame ever compromising their independence, so to me adding Navy as a football only member and UConn/UC/Temple/USF/etc as a full member some time in the future makes the most sense. However, this isn't an urgent issue.

If I was in charge of the ACC, I would choose Connecticut as #16...but that is just me. Adding Cincinnati would make me very happy though.

The only thing the ACC needs to do in terms of expansion is have some very surreptitious talks w/ WVU (I know there are some in the conf. who do not like/want them, but they have a good football pedigree and they fit really well) about bailing on the B-12 just as soon as their GoR is up.

We don't want them to challenge the GoR before as it could destabilize the ACC, too. Get the Eers away from the B-12, then there is a better likelihood Kansas goes B1G, and maybe TX/OK and 2 lil bros go Pac.

There likely can be only one b/w the ACC and B-12, it needs to be this conference. As far as a partner for WVU, pick 'em from UCoon, or Cincy. Then we go w/ 17 all sports. The BE was going to go w/ that number when TCU was invited, but obviously never fully got there. But 17 in hoops is workable, the BE thought so and they did have much practice in juggling scheduling that large...

Another thing I want to add...I think the Ohio recruiting area actually works against Cincinnati. Why would a program like Louisville or Boston College (they recruiting the GCL heavily) want more recruiting competition in the Cincinnati area? Right now both can offer something UC can't, adding UC would take away that advantage. Just another thing to think about...

The newest ACC members want to bring all their old Big East friends (WVU, Cincy, UConn)...everyone else would like to stay as-is.

(06-16-2013 04:34 PM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 06:27 PM)omniorange Wrote:  Since ND isn't happening and neither is my preferred PSU/MD happening, the ACC should just bite the bullet and add WVU and Cincy for all sports and either Georgetown or UConn for all sports but football. The latter assumes UConn would be willing to abandon football.

Cheers,
Neil

My question is why does the ACC need to do this?

Does it absolutely need to do it? No.

But in case you didn't notice, since about the third post onward, this thread turned into an ACC expansion thread.

Since I don't see ND coming fully on board, since I don't see PSU/MD leaving the BiG to join/rejoin the ACC, I gave my opinion as to what expansion should look like based upon those assumptions.

Cheers,
Neil

How many people advocating for WVU have ever attended a football game there (as the opponent)?

(06-16-2013 07:54 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  How many people advocating for WVU have ever attended a football game there (as the opposing team)?

Is it really that bad?

(06-16-2013 07:52 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  The newest ACC members want to bring all their old Big East friends (WVU, Cincy, UConn)...everyone else would like to stay as-is.

Ummm...third post of this thread by GTSwagger:

This map makes it pretty clear that West Virginia is the best pairing with ND... much to my shagrin.

The map shows a huge gap in the footprint that generated the discussion.

Hokie Mark's response to GTSwagger:

Ohio (Cincinnati) works just as well, as does Navy (Maryland).

Just for the record.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-16-2013 07:56 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-16-2013 07:54 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  How many people advocating for WVU have ever attended a football game there (as the opposing team)?

Is it really that bad?

yes, worse even. That said, in the hypothetical, Pitt would probably be on board with them getting an invite.

(06-16-2013 07:56 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-16-2013 07:54 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  How many people advocating for WVU have ever attended a football game there (as the opposing team)?

Is it really that bad?

Yes. It really is.

I know a lot of people will try to tell you that it is all made up and exaggerated.

Things I encountered at WVU:
The section next to the visitors would chuck their bourbon soaked ice (I think some was piss-soaked though it's hard to be sure) over into our section every time they finished a drink. Besides the ice raining down on you there were random objects like cups, batteries (I was surprised when this one came to pass as well), coins, anything in their pockets pretty much.

You couldn't go anywhere alone. Some of the girls in our group were assaulted in the bathroom line. A few WVU fans took the door that was propped open and slammed it back into their nose bloodying up their face in front of the State Police. The officer just said if we wanted to stay safe we should stay in Blacksburg.

There was profanity everywhere. In addition to the profanity there was always someone stopping to try to start an altercation. We all tried our best to laugh it off and tell them how amazing they were to get them to walk along. I've never been anywhere where people wanted so badly to find someone to hit.

Then you have the oversized speakers in the endzone playing while you are on offense. This is probably only done for VT games though. The refs had no control over the stadium. There should be 15yd penalties doled out until it is corrected.

Things I didn't experience that contributed to VT cancelling the series included tour buses of fans and players being rocked by the crowd. Port-a-potties being turned over w/ VT fans inside. The players had to wear their helmets the whole game for many years at WVU. The crowd would throw objects at them. Marcus Vick famously flipped the WVU crowd off on camera (not that he was a saint by any means) but most people that had knowledge of the racial slurs being said to him thought he was well justified in doing so.

My friend went to the game as a guest of Grant Nole's family. Grant was from WV. His family questioned why anyone would wear VT gear to the game. It is just accepted in WV that you should abuse opposing fans. It isn't the rogue fan doing it. It is institutionally ingrained there. (Oh, I left out how the fans cussed at his family the entire game. About how he was gay, he f-ed sheep, pretty much any vulgar comment they could come up with. Because to them, treating your parents like sh!t is all part of the game).

I've been to a lot of games all over. I've come to accept that if someone cusses at me or pushes me I'll live. WVU takes physical threats to another level. I don't trust them to stop at cussing and pushing...someone is going to get killed in that atmosphere.