NM ST has always been more successful and draws more attendance for Hoops than Football. Hard to make football work in a small state competing against a Flagship university for talent. NMST would be better off dropping football and putting all of it's $ into hoops. Stay in the WAC since they have one auto berth and try to beef up the non conference part of the schedule. Win those non conf games and they should get a decent NCAA tourney seed when they win the WAC auto bid. It's worked for Wichita State why not NMST. Football is expensive and unless you a flagship program or a secondary program in a large state with a good talent base or deep pockets; football is an almost no win situation.

Much better chance at growing visibility and earning $ in hoops as the more tourney games you win the more credits you earn. No chance for an SBC team to get a BCS bowl bid. NIU needed many things to fall it's way last year in order to get the Orange Bowl Bid.

(05-12-2013 04:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Whatevers ~ I meant NDSU, not UND, but now that you mention it, the same would apply to UND as well as the school from my family's side of the border, USD.

Except none of the AAC, MWC, CUSA or the MAC are going to invite them, so its beside the point whether they could fit in.

CUSA is not looking to fill a spot, nor is The American or the MWC, and none of the Majors would consider an FCS upgrade. The Sunbelt is looking to fill a spot, and the MAC might be, but the MAC wouldn't fill a spot with NDSU.

North Dakota is not at the same level as NDSU. NDSU has won 10 national championships. eight at the Division II level and two and the FCS level (the two most recent years). The quality of their program is impressive.

NDSU isn't looking to move up at this time. When they do feel that they are ready and are actively pursuing conferences, I would be surprised to see them go to the SBC. And I don't see them going to a BCS conference so that leaves the ones I mentioned.

conference realignment is not over, it wont be for some time.

(05-12-2013 04:45 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The comments of the Wichita president when the MVC added Loyola-Chicago imply that WSU wanted Denver but some of the poorer eastern MVC schools had a hissy fit over travel costs to Denver. If they were so upset about Denver, they'd be even less likely to consider NMSU, because it's much easier to travel to Denver than Las Cruces, and also NMSU would be more expensive because NMSU would have more sports participating in the MVC than Denver would have, thus more trips to/from Las Cruces for MVC teams.

Or the real reason could be that Denver said no right when the MVC started looking and that it's no use adding a school that's location would benefit one, maybe two teams. WAU doesn't want to travel to the Eastern edge of the conference actually. And adding NMSU is not probable due to the non-football schools not wanting schools to put an emphasis on sports that they do not have.

Besides, unless you see Saint Louis and Dayton wanting to join the MVC, they will not move past 10.

(05-12-2013 07:15 PM)NoDak Wrote:  In an earlier interview, NMSU's new President himself had mentioned the MVC and the Big Sky, so that's why I did.

http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-new...g-football

Suspect the MVC really just wanted a Chicago school for the media market. Denver, Kansas City, or Nashville could be future markets. If the fuss is truly about travel, Denver is a school that could almost certainly find affiliate status for all its sports except M/W basketball, and W volleyball. With the needs of the WAC, Summit, and MPSF for affiliate membership, NMSU could probably find numerous affiliate memberships if travel for non-revenue sports in the MVC is truly that bad of an issue.

They did want a Chicago school, as much as you may read it was down to UIC, Loyola, and Valpo.

UIC is not private so it lost, Valpo isn't in Chicago so that didn't help, and Loyola has been spending a lot of money.

Don't expect any more moves from the MVC as a conference, though.

(05-13-2013 12:10 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  North Dakota is not at the same level as NDSU. NDSU has won 10 national championships. eight at the Division II level and two and the FCS level (the two most recent years). The quality of their program is impressive.

NDSU isn't looking to move up at this time. When they do feel that they are ready and are actively pursuing conferences, I would be surprised to see them go to the SBC. And I don't see them going to a BCS conference so that leaves the ones I mentioned. Conference realignment is not over, it wont be for some time.

Nobody in the MVFC or FCS right now is at the level of NDSU - including FBS moveups Old Dominion, Ga Southern, and Appalachian St - so what's the point? They should not have moved up either?

North Dakota leads the all-time series against NDSU. Prior to NDSU moving to DI, UND dominated for 13 years, and also in the 1970's. The history since 1960 has been NDSU puts together some great teams, and then UND closes the gap and then dominates for a stretch, and then NDSU surges way ahead again. NDSU being good only forces UND to put even more money into football, unlike most MVFC schools.

So you're saying that NDSU doesn't even have FBS on the radar? The NDSU just gave a minimum cost of moving to FBS, so that can't possibly be true that FBS isn't on their mind. The SBC, CUSA, and the MAC certainly don't have them on the radar, so they have to look at other options, and the Big Sky is the only one that has shown them a possible path. The fan base at NDSU just feels sour grapes toward the Big Sky, because repeated public overtures by NDSU's President toward the Big Sky a decade ago were rejected, causing the NDSU fan base public humiliation. NDSU's fans are not forgiving, but their new President is. The Big Sky was always NDSU's (and UND's) dream conference since the 1960's, and that hasn't changed from an institutional standpoint. The West is where alumni are and where new money is.

Quote:Or the real reason could be that Denver said no right when the MVC started looking and that it's no use adding a school that's location would benefit one, maybe two teams. WAU doesn't want to travel to the Eastern edge of the conference actually. And adding NMSU is not probable due to the non-football schools not wanting schools to put an emphasis on sports that they do not have.

Besides, unless you see Saint Louis and Dayton wanting to join the MVC, they will not move past 10.

The MVC early on decided on a Chicago or Kansas City team for media and travel purposes. Denver graciously pulled out because they knew they wouldn't get in at this time. Denver would have never said "no", but only conceded there was no chance of acceptance. The Summit asked Denver to make a statement so the Summit would "look" like it was preferred, which is absolute B.S. Denver would do practically anything to get into the MVC or WCC.

Quote:They did want a Chicago school, as much as you may read it was down to UIC, Loyola, and Valpo.

UIC is not private so it lost, Valpo isn't in Chicago so that didn't help, and Loyola has been spending a lot of money.

Don't expect any more moves from the MVC as a conference, though.

Wichita State isn't exactly a happy camper. WSU wanted DU for WSU's alumni base in Denver, plus it adds another private to satisfy that bloc. The MVC private schools need to at least listen to some of WSU desires.

(05-13-2013 12:39 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Nobody in the MVFC or FCS right now is at the level of NDSU - including FBS moveups Old Dominion, Ga Southern, and Appalachian St - so what's the point? They should not have moved up either?

I did not say anything of the sort, don't put words in my mouth. I said that NDSU is better than the SBC and could get into, and be competitive in a short while, another non-BCS conference. And if Eastern Carolina's name has been thrown around with the SEC I wouldn't say that it's a stretch to talk about NDSU with the conferences that I have.

North Dakota leads the all-time series against NDSU. Prior to NDSU moving to DI, UND dominated for 13 years, and also in the 1970's. The history since 1960 has been NDSU puts together some great teams, and then UND closes the gap and then dominates for a stretch, and then NDSU surges way ahead again. NDSU being good only forces UND to put even more money into football, unlike most MVFC schools.

All I said was that NDSU has a better football program than UND. And NDSU does have the largest football budget (but not the largest athletic budget), but the teams that it is far higher than are the South Dakota teams, MSU, and WIU. The rest are all fairly close. UND would actually have one of the smallest football budgets if it were in the MVFC.

So you're saying that NDSU doesn't even have FBS on the radar? The NDSU just gave a minimum cost of moving to FBS, so that can't possibly be true that FBS isn't on their mind. The SBC, CUSA, and the MAC certainly don't have them on the radar, so they have to look at other options, and the Big Sky is the only one that has shown them a possible path. The fan base at NDSU just feels sour grapes toward the Big Sky, because repeated public overtures by NDSU's President toward the Big Sky a decade ago were rejected, causing the NDSU fan base public humiliation. NDSU's fans are not forgiving, but their new President is. The Big Sky was always NDSU's (and UND's) dream conference since the 1960's, and that hasn't changed from an institutional standpoint. The West is where alumni are and where new money is.

NDSU has said that they want to move up but want to do it on their own terms and when they are ready financially. The Big Sky Conference is FCS and unless the NCAA grants them some miracle, they can't do anything. I also don't know if NDSU would want to split from even more Dakota schools.


The MVC early on decided on a Chicago or Kansas City team for media and travel purposes. Denver graciously pulled out because they knew they wouldn't get in at this time. Denver would have never said "no", but only conceded there was no chance of acceptance. The Summit asked Denver to make a statement so the Summit would "look" like it was preferred, which is absolute B.S. Denver would do practically anything to get into the MVC or WCC.

UMKC was never going to happen. Kansas city would be a nice market to get into, but the school is public, does not have the program or fan base, and has just recently changed conferences. Denver is in a new part of the country, has good attendance, and a decent program as of late, but nothing too amazing. The MVC is a reactive conference that seems to want to stick to where it has been (since 1996)

Wichita State isn't exactly a happy camper. WSU wanted DU for WSU's alumni base in Denver, plus it adds another private to satisfy that bloc. The MVC private schools need to at least listen to some of WSU desires.

WSU and the private schools have a similar look because of the lack of football programs or, in the case of Drake, scholarships.

My opinion for what it is worth.

NMSU has made two big mistakes in their history.

Mistake #1. They fled the Valley to the Big West because the Big West needed I-A members and the Valley was giving up on I-A because only Tulsa, Wichita State, and NMSU met requirements. The Big West was a league at cross-purposes and went out of the business of football. If they had stayed in the Valley they would have had two choices, play as an indy like Tulsa and Wichita (who later gave up football), or reclassify I-AA and played Gateway, later MVFC football. If they had stayed connected to Tulsa, they may very well have ended up CUSA or the group of southern independents who always seemed to be one team short of finally getting a conference formed might not have been a team short and it might have formed before the SWC break-up. If they took a football de-emphasis approach they would have been in a comfortable home for basketball.

Mistake #2. Leaving the Sun Belt for the WAC. The WAC would have been at 8 in 2005, barely hanging on to FBS instead of being at 9. Boise's departure would have been the nails in the coffin rather than the departures of Nevada and Fresno. Boise's story might have turned out differently if 2005-2010 they had filled what was NMSU's spot on the league schedule with a non-conference game against a stronger opponent. UTSA might never have been sitting there about to go through transition when CUSA expanded. Louisiana Monroe might not have received a full invite to the Sun Belt or Florida Atlantic might not have received a Sun Belt invite. More importantly NMSU wouldn't be facing the marketing mess of football and basketball playing in different leagues with different schedules.

@arkstfan ~ whether Mistake #1 is a mistake or not depends on their objectives. If their objectives were to maintain an FBS football program, then it wasn't a mistake, it was simply making the best of a bad situation.

Mistake #2 was definitely a mistake ~ NMSU would have saved a lot of headache if they had just stayed put in the Sunbelt.

(05-13-2013 12:10 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(05-12-2013 04:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Whatevers ~ I meant NDSU, not UND, but now that you mention it, the same would apply to UND as well as the school from my family's side of the border, USD.

Except none of the AAC, MWC, CUSA or the MAC are going to invite them, so its beside the point whether they could fit in.

North Dakota is not at the same level as NDSU.

I never said that they were. When I said North Dakota, I simply forgot to type the "State". I surely was not referring to the Watchamacallits. They're a hockey school: their big realignment move is joining the National Collegiate Hockey Association an inaugural member.

Quote: NDSU isn't looking to move up at this time. When they do feel that they are ready and are actively pursuing conferences, I would be surprised to see them go to the SBC. And I don't see them going to a BCS conference so that leaves the ones I mentioned.

But you are going at it from a different process of elimination in terms of who they would prefer to go to. I was looking at it from a process of elimination of what invitations would be most likely to be available.

Quote: conference realignment is not over, it wont be for some time.

Conference realignment will never be over ~ its got another kick coming in the Division One non-football, and aftershocks of the last few years are still reverberating in Division One FCS, while realignment never stops in Division Two and below.

But at the Major Conference level it appears to be taking a breather, so at the Mid Major level it is slowing down to a very few moves. Even if the Big12 were to raid the Go5 for two more schools, that would still make for much less movement than there has been the past five years.

My process of elimination was not who the Bisons would like to join, but who would be most likely to make an offer to the Bisons. Given that we can rule out the P5, the American and the MWC in terms of making FCS call-ups, that narrows it down to the MAC, CUSA, and the Sunbelt. It won't be the MAC because of the footprint, so that narrows it down to CUSA or the Sunbelt.

That at very least makes it better than 50:50 odds that if the Bisons want to move up, their best prospect for an invite is the Sunbelt.

(05-13-2013 01:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  I never said that they were. When I said North Dakota, I simply forgot to type the "State". I surely was not referring to the Watchamacallits. They're a hockey school: their big realignment move is joining the National Collegiate Hockey Association an inaugural member.

But you are going at it from a different process of elimination in terms of who they would prefer to go to. I was looking at it from a process of elimination of what invitations would be most likely to be available.

I'd still think that the CUSA would be possible. They are a conference that fits its name and throughout its history has taken seemingly random schools to form a usually good conference. For that reason I think that they would be willing to look at NDSU.

Conference realignment will never be over ~ its got another kick coming in the Division One non-football, and aftershocks of the last few years are still reverberating in Division One FCS, while realignment never stops in Division Two and below.

Nothing's sacred anymore.

But at the Major Conference level it appears to be taking a breather, so at the Mid Major level it is slowing down to a very few moves. Even if the Big12 were to raid the Go5 for two more schools, that would still make for much less movement than there has been the past five years.

The ACC kind of put a stop to a large portion of that. Although I still wouldn't be surprised to see a team leave.

My process of elimination was not who the Bisons would like to join, but who would be most likely to make an offer to the Bisons. Given that we can rule out the P5, the American and the MWC in terms of making FCS call-ups, that narrows it down to the MAC, CUSA, and the Sunbelt. It won't be the MAC because of the footprint, so that narrows it down to CUSA or the Sunbelt.

Okay, at least you agree with me on the CUSA. I don't see the SBC happening unless something tragic happens.

That at very least makes it better than 50:50 odds that if the Bisons want to move up, their best prospect for an invite is the Sunbelt.

We all know that they want to, and thanks to money going into the school they are in good shape. They just seem to be catching their breath from moving up from Division II and biding their time.

(05-14-2013 06:55 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(05-13-2013 01:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  I never said that they were. When I said North Dakota, I simply forgot to type the "State". I surely was not referring to the Watchamacallits. They're a hockey school: their big realignment move is joining the National Collegiate Hockey Association an inaugural member.

But you are going at it from a different process of elimination in terms of who they would prefer to go to. I was looking at it from a process of elimination of what invitations would be most likely to be available.

I'd still think that the CUSA would be possible. They are a conference that fits its name and throughout its history has taken seemingly random schools to form a usually good conference. For that reason I think that they would be willing to look at NDSU.

Conference realignment will never be over ~ its got another kick coming in the Division One non-football, and aftershocks of the last few years are still reverberating in Division One FCS, while realignment never stops in Division Two and below.

Nothing's sacred anymore.

But at the Major Conference level it appears to be taking a breather, so at the Mid Major level it is slowing down to a very few moves. Even if the Big12 were to raid the Go5 for two more schools, that would still make for much less movement than there has been the past five years.

The ACC kind of put a stop to a large portion of that. Although I still wouldn't be surprised to see a team leave.

My process of elimination was not who the Bisons would like to join, but who would be most likely to make an offer to the Bisons. Given that we can rule out the P5, the American and the MWC in terms of making FCS call-ups, that narrows it down to the MAC, CUSA, and the Sunbelt. It won't be the MAC because of the footprint, so that narrows it down to CUSA or the Sunbelt.

Okay, at least you agree with me on the CUSA. I don't see the SBC happening unless something tragic happens.

That at very least makes it better than 50:50 odds that if the Bisons want to move up, their best prospect for an invite is the Sunbelt.

We all know that they want to, and thanks to money going into the school they are in good shape. They just seem to be catching their breath from moving up from Division II and biding their time.

I'm sorry to break it to you but there is no way CUSA would invite a team from Montana or the Dakotas. CUSA has a tight geographical footprint and no school in that conference would want to incur the travel costs.

The only conference that would take schools in the upper northwest is, ironically, the Sun Belt, and that is only if several schools moved up together to reduce travel costs. The SBC had to take Idaho to survive, but no school wants to travel to Moscow. If the schools I mentioned in my OP moved up together, plus ND if they approve their new stadium, they could sell the idea that no one would have to make the long cross country trip.

The Montana and the Dakota schools need to realize the SBC is their only chance and Idaho is the beachhead to FBS. The sooner they realize this the better these schools will be. The SBC is at 11 now, and if they get the right #12 the door to FBS could shut for a decade or longer.

Lastly, it appears many schools do not want to join the SBC because of the perception that it is the lowest on the totem pole due to the CUSA's frequent raids, but if you look at W/L records, the rich recruiting grounds and the level of interest of each school's fans then the SBC has a lot to offer.

But you would not be the first to turn your nose up at the opportunity.

(05-14-2013 07:17 AM)Lurker Above Wrote:  I'm sorry to break it to you but there is no way CUSA would invite a team from Montana or the Dakotas. CUSA has a tight geographical footprint and no school in that conference would want to incur the travel costs.

What? It never has and is not close to being so. Fargo is closer to El Paso and Greenville, NC than those two are to each other. Even the furthest current city form Fargo is still closer than those two cities.

The only conference that would take schools in the upper northwest is, ironically, the Sun Belt, and that is only if several schools moved up together to reduce travel costs. The SBC had to take Idaho to survive, but no school wants to travel to Moscow. If the schools I mentioned in my OP moved up together, plus ND if they approve their new stadium, they could sell the idea that no one would have to make the long cross country trip.

Northern Iowa doesn't have the money and Missouri State doesn't have the recent history.

The Montana and the Dakota schools need to realize the SBC is their only chance and Idaho is the beachhead to FBS. The sooner they realize this the better these schools will be. The SBC is at 11 now, and if they get the right #12 the door to FBS could shut for a decade or longer.

With the constant changes that is not the truth.

Lastly, it appears many schools do not want to join the SBC because of the perception that it is the lowest on the totem pole due to the CUSA's frequent raids, but if you look at W/L records, the rich recruiting grounds and the level of interest of each school's fans then the SBC has a lot to offer.

It is though. Look at all of the success CUSA teams have had and where they are now.

But you would not be the first to turn your nose up at the opportunity.

A lot of MVFC teams did.

(05-14-2013 08:42 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(05-14-2013 07:17 AM)Lurker Above Wrote:  I'm sorry to break it to you but there is no way CUSA would invite a team from Montana or the Dakotas. CUSA has a tight geographical footprint and no school in that conference would want to incur the travel costs.

What? It never has and is not close to being so. Fargo is closer to El Paso and Greenville, NC than those two are to each other. Even the furthest current city form Fargo is still closer than those two cities.

The only conference that would take schools in the upper northwest is, ironically, the Sun Belt, and that is only if several schools moved up together to reduce travel costs. The SBC had to take Idaho to survive, but no school wants to travel to Moscow. If the schools I mentioned in my OP moved up together, plus ND if they approve their new stadium, they could sell the idea that no one would have to make the long cross country trip.

Northern Iowa doesn't have the money and Missouri State doesn't have the recent history.

The Montana and the Dakota schools need to realize the SBC is their only chance and Idaho is the beachhead to FBS. The sooner they realize this the better these schools will be. The SBC is at 11 now, and if they get the right #12 the door to FBS could shut for a decade or longer.

With the constant changes that is not the truth.

Lastly, it appears many schools do not want to join the SBC because of the perception that it is the lowest on the totem pole due to the CUSA's frequent raids, but if you look at W/L records, the rich recruiting grounds and the level of interest of each school's fans then the SBC has a lot to offer.

It is though. Look at all of the success CUSA teams have had and where they are now.

But you would not be the first to turn your nose up at the opportunity.

A lot of MVFC teams did.

If you thing CUSA would take you go to the CUSA board and ask them.

Your geography analysis forgets CUSA has two divisions which makes travel easier. Also, CUSA is considering adding two more schools to make such travel even shorter, most likely Arkansas State and Louisiana.

Everyone cannot move up at once. The ones most ready would go first. Probably the Montanas and SDS.

(05-14-2013 08:48 AM)Lurker Above Wrote:  If you thing CUSA would take you go to the CUSA board and ask them.

I don't think that the CUSA would take me because I'm a person and not a school.

Your geography analysis forgets CUSA has two divisions which makes travel easier. Also, CUSA is considering adding two more schools to make such travel even shorter, most likely Arkansas State and Louisiana.

No, everything I said was correct. The CUSA covers a large portion of the United States of America just as the name suggests. And the new additions expand the conference's footprint.

Everyone cannot move up at once. The ones most ready would go first. Probably the Montanas and SDS.

I doubt SDSU moving up that soon.

(05-14-2013 06:55 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(05-13-2013 01:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  I never said that they were. When I said North Dakota, I simply forgot to type the "State". I surely was not referring to the Watchamacallits. They're a hockey school: their big realignment move is joining the National Collegiate Hockey Association an inaugural member.

But you are going at it from a different process of elimination in terms of who they would prefer to go to. I was looking at it from a process of elimination of what invitations would be most likely to be available.

(NB: Threading fixed ~ its "quote" and "/quote" inside brackets)

I'd still think that the CUSA would be possible. They are a conference that fits its name and throughout its history has taken seemingly random schools to form a usually good conference. For that reason I think that they would be willing to look at NDSU.

"Possible" as in conceivable, sure. Possible as in likely? If it weren't for geography, and if NDSU can keep up their BBall success, they'd be a compelling add, a strong FCS football school that would raise the CUSA BBall RPI.

But the geography is what it is. CUSA at present wouldn't want to add a school so far away from its footprint in the Southeast and Texas, and since Major conference realignment is settling down, there's nothing that would drive a change in that over the decade ahead.

Quote:

Quote: Conference realignment will never be over ~ its got another kick coming in the Division One non-football, and aftershocks of the last few years are still reverberating in Division One FCS, while realignment never stops in Division Two and below.

Nothing's sacred anymore.

What I said had nothing to do with anything being sacrosanct. Actually, I believe that to a 90% degree of accuracy, its all about the money. So "Nothing's sacred anymore" doesn't change the prospects for tickets to the FBS in the coming decade.

Quote:

Quote: But at the Major Conference level it appears to be taking a breather, so at the Mid Major level it is slowing down to a very few moves. Even if the Big12 were to raid the Go5 for two more schools, that would still make for much less movement than there has been the past five years.

The ACC kind of put a stop to a large portion of that. Although I still wouldn't be surprised to see a team leave.

Whether or not it would surprise you, can you advance any reason to expect any school in the ACC to leave?

Quote:

Quote: My process of elimination was not who the Bisons would like to join, but who would be most likely to make an offer to the Bisons. Given that we can rule out the P5, the American and the MWC in terms of making FCS call-ups, that narrows it down to the MAC, CUSA, and the Sunbelt. It won't be the MAC because of the footprint, so that narrows it down to CUSA or the Sunbelt.

Okay, at least you agree with me on the CUSA.

CUSA is the only other one that's a remote possibility, but I was considering moves that were most likely to be available, not moves that are remote possibilities.

Quote:I don't see the SBC happening unless something tragic happens.

Don't you rather mean unless something tragic FAILS to happen to CUSA? After all, Conference USA would have to be in fairly deep trouble before it would consider NDSU.