I just watched the ESPN video regarding the desire to change the name of the Washington Redskins to something else. I wondered what other folks opinions are on these type issues. I know it has effected college sports and at least one ACC member.

Ironically, when I was traveling out west last month, I drove through a Native American Reservation and past a sign for the local High School. You know what their name was? Yep... Redskins. You know what their school logo was? Yes again... the Washington Redskins logo!

I, personally, have no issue with whatever you name a team. Someone will always be offended by a name. There are so many names that someone could consider offensive, where do you draw the line? If the name is offensive to me, I won't be a fan, or attend a game. But I'm not gonna tell someone they can't use that name.

Just wondering about various opinions you might have.

(05-10-2013 02:30 PM)army56mike Wrote:  I just watched the ESPN video regarding the desire to change the name of the Washington Redskins to something else. I wondered what other folks opinions are on these type issues. I know it has effected college sports and at least one ACC member.

Ironically, when I was traveling out west last month, I drove through a Native American Reservation and past a sign for the local High School. You know what their name was? Yep... Redskins. You know what their school logo was? Yes again... the Washington Redskins logo!

I, personally, have no issue with whatever you name a team. Someone will always be offended by a name. There are so many names that someone could consider offensive, where do you draw the line? If the name is offensive to me, I won't be a fan, or attend a game. But I'm not gonna tell someone they can't use that name.

Just wondering about various opinions you might have.

Dang, screw political correctness.

1. Washington Redskins
2. Cowboys - outlaws that killed indians.
3. Giants- insensitive to obese people.
4. Packers- slur for gay people.
5. Vikings- pillaging pirates.
6. Saints- not inclusive of all religions.
7. Buccaneers- see note for Vikings.
8. 49ers- none environmentally friendly capitalists.
9. Patriots- international rebels.
10. Titans- see NY Giants.
11. Broncos- cruelty to animals.
12. Chiefs- see Redskins.
13. Raiders- lawless thugs.

And that just covers the NFL.

1. Yankees- insensitive to southern folks
2. Royals- all uppity and discredits the little man... the average working American
3. Indians- See Redskins and Chiefs
4. A's- insensitive to people who aren't athletes
5. Angels- religious intollerance
6. Braves- See Redskins, Chiefs and Indians
7. Mets- insensitive to those who live in rural America
8. Reds- espouses communism
9. Pirates- See Buccaneers, Vikings, Raiders
10. Brewers- encourages alcoholism
11. Giants- see NY Giants
12. Padres- see Angels
13. Dodgers- draft dodgers

And that just covers MLB. The list can go on and on and on...

Mike, I am Scottish, Pictish and Norman-English decent. So all of these will have to go:

Pirates
Gaels
Fighting Irish
Norsemen
North Men
Vikings
Normans
Celtics
Sea Raiders
High Landers
Raiders Warriors
Saxons

(05-10-2013 03:18 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Mike, I am Scottish, Pictish and Norman-English decent. So all of these will have to go:

Pirates
Gaels
Fighting Irish
Norsemen
North Men
Vikings
Normans
Celtics
Sea Raiders
High Landers
Raiders Warriors
Saxons

Lol, "wotsa wuck" with those, Wilkie (Is that politically incorrect?).

As the only Irish citizen on this board (as far as I know) and with my Irish/Celtic Y-DNA test results showing my Irish/Scottish DNA matches, I have to personally veto your request to get rid of these nicknames.

Sorry, that is just the way it is. No appeals allowed. :)


P.S. I know you are just joking.

To be offensive, a name has to have three basic things.

1. it must be based on a description, caricature, or characteristic shared by a set group of individuals
2. it must either be considered to be derogatory by the group of individuals to which it is being applied or it the intention behind the term must be malicious
3. it must be applied to the group of individuals by individuals who are outside of the targeted group
   

The reason some in the Native American community consider "redskin" to be an offensive term is because it fits all three of the criteria listed above. It is a racial descriptor for the indigenous peoples of the Americas that was applied by European colonizers from the Western Hemisphere.

Now let's look at some of the examples you gave and see if they can really by considered offensive or not.

(05-10-2013 02:56 PM)army56mike Wrote:  2. Cowboys - outlaws that killed indians.

Incorrect useage. A cowboy is an animal herder who tends cattle on ranches in North America, traditionally on horseback. The term "cowboy" describes a job; not an ethnicity, race, sexual preference, etc. Also, it is a term that is used by those doing that line of work. Furthermore, being a cowboy does not mean you had to be an outlaw that killed Native Americans (just as being a human doesn't make you a rapist even though some humans are).

(05-10-2013 02:56 PM)army56mike Wrote:  3. Giants- insensitive to obese people.

Incorrect useage. The owner of the team decided on term "Giants" because his team would play at the Polo Grounds, the home of baseball’s New York Giants (now the San Francisco Giants). The original Giants derived their name from the city’s giant buildings, not from a person's weight. Furthermore, the term "giant" is often used in common parlance to signify something that is tall or large in size. It is not often used to refer to someone's weight.

(05-10-2013 02:56 PM)army56mike Wrote:  4. Packers- slur for gay people.

Incorrect useage. The word "Packers" refers to the Indian Packing Company. This company provided the team with money for uniforms and equipment on condition that the team be named for its sponsor. The name "Packers" described what the original sponsor company did (i.e. packed meat into cans); it was not intended as a pejorative term for a homosexual.

(05-10-2013 02:56 PM)army56mike Wrote:  5. Vikings- pillaging pirates.

Correct but not offensive for two reasons. First, the vikings peoples existed from the 8th to the mid-11th centuries. Modern Scandinavians might trace their ancestry back to viking families, but vikings don't exist in the modern day (it is impossible to offend that which does not exist). Second, the word víkingr is the actual word those individuals used to describe their own actions (to go raiding). It isn't a word or term that was assigned to them by someone else nor would they have considered it offensive.

(05-10-2013 02:56 PM)army56mike Wrote:  6. Saints- not inclusive of all religions.

????? The name "Saints" is an allusion to the jazz song most identified with New Orleans – "When the Saints Go Marching In". Furthermore, the word "saint" is never used in an insulting or demeaning fashion for a group of individuals (e.g. you can't insult a Catholic by calling them a saint).


I suppose you were trying to make a point, but those examples were horrible ones to pick as none of them really fit what any rational human being could consider offensive.

I, for one, don't like the Washington nick name. I have no problem with using native American mascots. Teams are named for the positive characteristics of the group. I dont thingk there are any teams called the "Snails." This name was created to be a racial surr. Substitute any others race color for red and it is equally offensive. Assigning it to a team doesn't lessen the slur. I say keep the mascot and rename the team for a local tribe.

It is not uncommon for minorities to use racial slurs among themselves. It doesn't make it right or mean that they want others to call them that.

(05-10-2013 02:49 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Dang, screw political correctness.

I view political correctness like food. Too little or too much are bad for a person, but having a moderate amount is a good thing.

For example, this forum discourages the use of personal insults and offensive language. That is one form of political correctness and it is what allows us to communicate and argue different idea in a civil and respectful manner. I think that happens to be a good thing.

On the other hand, political correctness can cause individuals to feel pressured even when their intentions are good. For example, I've seen people specifically avoid talking about certain issues or asking for help with particular problems because they didn't want others to think of them as being racist.

IMO, it is a two way street. You need some form of political correctness in order to maintain some sense of civility and respect for your fellow human beings. Conversely, too much correctness can stifle conversation.

UofLGrad07... dawg, you're looking way too much into it. army56mike is totally joking.

There is no right to not be offended. That road leads to a heckler's veto for any free speech. If Redskins is good enough for a Native American highschool, it should be ok for a pro team. No one names their team as an insult. It's really the ultimate respect.

(05-10-2013 03:45 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 03:18 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Mike, I am Scottish, Pictish and Norman-English decent. So all of these will have to go:

Pirates
Gaels
Fighting Irish
Norsemen
North Men
Vikings
Normans
Celtics
Sea Raiders
High Landers
Raiders Warriors
Saxons

Lol, "wotsa wuck" with those, Wilkie (Is that politically incorrect?).

As the only Irish citizen on this board (as far as I know) and with my Irish/Celtic Y-DNA test results showing my Irish/Scottish DNA matches, I have to personally veto your request to get rid of these nicknames.
sorry, that is just the way it is. No appeals allowed. :)


P.S. I know you are just joking.

Hell, Terry, I was being sarcastic. I am a descendant of Cináed mac Ailpín (Modern Gaelic: Coinneach mac Ailpein),[1] commonly Anglicised as Kenneth MacAlpin and known in most modern regnal lists as Kenneth I (810 – 13 February 858) was king of the Picts and, according to national myth, first king of Scots, earning him the posthumous nickname of An Ferbasach, "The Conqueror". Hell, he was from the Irish Clan/tribe called the Scoti. His mother was a Pict princess. My mothers maiden name is MacCubbin, McCubbins in America. My surname Wilkerson is Norman and arrived in England in 1066. I have the right to those names!

Oh, I left two out, the WASPs and the Orangemen.

(05-10-2013 07:41 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 03:45 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 03:18 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Mike, I am Scottish, Pictish and Norman-English decent. So all of these will have to go:

Pirates
Gaels
Fighting Irish
Norsemen
North Men
Vikings
Normans
Celtics
Sea Raiders
High Landers
Raiders Warriors
Saxons

Lol, "wotsa wuck" with those, Wilkie (Is that politically incorrect?).

As the only Irish citizen on this board (as far as I know) and with my Irish/Celtic Y-DNA test results showing my Irish/Scottish DNA matches, I have to personally veto your request to get rid of these nicknames.
sorry, that is just the way it is. No appeals allowed. :)


P.S. I know you are just joking.

Hell, Terry, I was being sarcastic. I am a descendant of Cináed mac Ailpín (Modern Gaelic: Coinneach mac Ailpein),[1] commonly Anglicised as Kenneth MacAlpin and known in most modern regnal lists as Kenneth I (810 – 13 February 858) was king of the Picts and, according to national myth, first king of Scots, earning him the posthumous nickname of An Ferbasach, "The Conqueror". Hell, he was from the Irish Clan/tribe called the Scoti. His mother was a Pict princess. My mothers maiden name is MacCubbin, McCubbins in America. My surname Wilkerson is Norman and arrived in England in 1066. I have the right to those names!

Oh, I left two out, the WASPs and the Orangemen.

I knew that and I was just messing with you.

I am pretty familiar with Scottish history and know about Kenneth MacAlpin.

My paternal ancestors, the MacDuinnsleibe (my last name in Gaelic Irish), were the Kings of Ulaid in Northeast Ireland for several hundred years, with their stronghold in Downpatrick (now in County Down).

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik...re1100.htm


I know that Irish invaders from that area crossed over and became the Scoti. My kinfolk were probably among them. I have lots of DNA matches in western Scotland as well as in Ireland.

I will be in the Scottish Highlands for five days in late July, staying at a B&B on Loch Ness, halfway between Fort Augustus and Inverness.

I will raise a toast for you while I am in the Highlands.

After that, it is ten days in Ireland for my wife and I. Our last visit to Scotland and Ireland was two years ago. I can't wait to go back.

Have a great trip. Mine, Lord Fergus MacCubbin, came from McCubbinstone near Ayrshire, Scotland and lived at KNOCKDOLIAN CASTLE. Our name changed over the years to McCubbins in Kentucky.

I agree that the Redskins name should be changed. I've seen mock ups for the Washington Warriors.

Snyder is prohibited from moving the team int DC proper (the team is actually in Maryland) unless the name is changed. I think it's more likely that he move it to northern Virginia (but still inside the beltway) to escape the overlap of Ravens fans.

(05-11-2013 07:25 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  I agree that the Redskins name should be changed. I've seen mock ups for the Washington Warriors.

Snyder is prohibited from moving the team int DC proper (the team is actually in Maryland) unless the name is changed. I think it's more likely that he move it to northern Virginia (but still inside the beltway) to escape the overlap of Ravens fans.

Warriors is not on the politically correct list either. Just ask Marquette University. Heck, Bullets isn't even politically correct.

I'm not going to get into a long story about this but lets just say the NCAA went running with their tail between their legs when they tried to get Florida State to remove the Seminole name.

The Seminole Tribe of Florida - http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/ -

The Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma - http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/storie...4407.shtml

The best quotes I ever read from both The Florida Tribe and Oklahoma tribe -

Florida Tribe - "We haven"t signed any peace treaty with the NCAA"
Oklahoma Tribe - "I'm tired of the white man always trying to tell us what to do"


NCAA -
Florida and Oklahoma tribe to the NCAA -
Florida State to the NCAA -

For anyone wondering what the FSU fans think about all of this have a look - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlgfs7bIhys

I for one think it would be awesome if a team made this their mascot!!!!!

(05-11-2013 01:32 PM)Florida State Wrote:  I'm not going to get into a long story about this but lets just say the NCAA went running with their tail between their legs when they tried to get Florida State to remove the Seminole name.

The Seminole Tribe of Florida - http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/ -

The Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma - http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/storie...4407.shtml

The best quotes I ever read from both The Florida Tribe and Oklahoma tribe -

Florida Tribe - "We haven"t signed any peace treaty with the NCAA"
Oklahoma Tribe - "I'm tired of the white man always trying to tell us what to do"


NCAA -
Florida and Oklahoma tribe to the NCAA -
Florida State to the NCAA -

For anyone wondering what the FSU fans think about all of this have a look - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlgfs7bIhys

True dat! Stanford is straight up a bunch of p*ssies!

William and Mary used to be the Iron Indians. Now they get away with being the Tribe.

I liked the Nowipeees tribe from F Troop better!