(06-02-2013 06:28 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:33 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The don't work because they aren't enforced...I mean how long has EMU been allowed to just have the parents of the players and the band in the stands but nothing said to them

Actually EMU does get the attendance but gets it later after pepsi buys the tickets at the end of the season. Crazy enough it fits the rules. Whatever rule you can think of that won't screw somebody important in a P5 conference can be circumvented with some creativity (just like about every law ever made).

They already tried to ditch the MAC once and failed I guess we go for round two.

In some ways the MAC makes sense making the cut. There is no other conference behind the Big 10 in the Midwest. The AACK!, CUSA and Sun Belt cover much of the same territory.

(05-31-2013 01:29 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 11:13 AM)redfan Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 10:53 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 09:48 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 09:13 AM)redfan Wrote:  This problem that has been brought up several times.What happens to the p5 conference members that do not play football at a level comparable to most of their conference? Including these schools would start the lawsuits. Would conferences expel schools like Kentucky to get what they want?

It is about $$$, not competition. Kentucky brings money, as does Kansas. Kentucky football brings in more money that their basketball program.

Even though this is hard to type, Yes Kentucky has one of the Best Fan bases anywhere. BB a No Brainer unreal support, FB, If a team playing at Their Best even while not winning will outdraw most SEC , ACC, B1G schools with over 60,000 fans weekly. They travel extremely well in many sports. All They needed is a Good Football coaching staff and They may have it now. Damn, My fingers are Burning !

It is hard to believe that a school like Kentucky could get expelled from their conference. However the "they make lots of money argument" for inclusion while excluding others would probably not fair well in court. Arbitrary and Capricious?

It goes the other way, as well. Good luck to these conferences to expel an educational member based on athletic performance, especially a founding member. You can't be short-sighted about these things, either. I know UK specifically is not the point, but every program has ups and downs (prime example is Colorado). UK's all time football record is 579-583-44 (49.8 winning %). That looks pretty darn average to me, and average, by definition, is where most people/places/things land. It is more about the relationship than the wins and losses. I guarantee that the titans of college football prefer to keep some of the weaker teams with higher prestige/exposure, anyway. The last few years, has there been a major different in UK or WKU football? Not really, but which school turns the dial and gets the BBN marching?

But the point was how could the NCAA allow P5 to keep these conference teams(any bottom of any P5 conference teams) while teams outside the P5 that are equivalent or better are barred entry to this new division. And who would decide? There would be lawsuits from schools and individuals. It would be foolish for anybody outside the P5 to place themselves in legal jeopardy by being any part of this ill conceived proposal. I believe the P5 would have to leave the NCAA to create this division. Even then their action would prompt charges of damages and resulting litigation.

(06-02-2013 07:05 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 06:28 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:33 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The don't work because they aren't enforced...I mean how long has EMU been allowed to just have the parents of the players and the band in the stands but nothing said to them

Actually EMU does get the attendance but gets it later after pepsi buys the tickets at the end of the season. Crazy enough it fits the rules. Whatever rule you can think of that won't screw somebody important in a P5 conference can be circumvented with some creativity (just like about every law ever made).

They already tried to ditch the MAC once and failed I guess we go for round two.

In some ways the MAC makes sense making the cut. There is no other conference behind the Big 10 in the Midwest. The AACK!, CUSA and Sun Belt cover much of the same territory.

the AACK! I LOLed :)

(05-30-2013 08:08 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  I can see it happening this way. However, I don't think it's as easy as drawing a line between P5 / G5 and calling it a day.

This!

They will have to set standards for membership in the new conference and let the G5 conferences *try* to keep up. # of sports, # of scholarships, stipends.... Something!

CFB is the only sport where levels are determined by money rather than how good teams are. I mean, why does attendance matter? And which attendance numbers would you use, actual attendance or sold tickets?

(06-01-2013 12:41 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 10:08 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 09:56 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:47 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I just dont see this happening on the basis of conference affiliation. There will be criteria created for the new D-1 membership that schools either meet of they dont meet. Each individual conference, based upon how thier membership looks in the light of these criteria will have to determine in what division they can continue to exist. Then, individual schools who qualify for D-1, but whos leagues are predominately D-2 will have to decide if they wish to move down to D-2 with the rest of thier league or if they want to brave the future as an independent in the new D1. These new indy D-1's will either survive as indy schools, be absorbed by existing P-5 conferences, or if there are enough schools in a similar circumstance, they may be able to form a new D-1 conference to give the orphan upper level programs a home.

Most will not go willingly this time and will put up a fight with politics and lawyers as will their conferences. They may not win...but you never know what happens when you get in front of a judge.

The criteria will have to be carefully crafted to not drop teams they want to keep and affect those they want to drop. Carefully crafting criteria to protect your friends but damage others can be problematic.

And schools that meet the criteria but are orphaned by the power conferences will file ant-trust lawsuits based on not having the same options/benefits as the 64 member schools.

The P5 conferences are raking in money hand over fist. Piles of it. Millions and millions of dollars. So much that they have difficulty spending it sometimes.

The rest of us either make just a little...or are in the red.

Why is this a problem for them? They are really risking all of that just to keep us out of the crumbs?Not really. There is a lot of arrogance, ego, and snobbery involved on the part of Presidents..AD's..coaches..and fans.

Fans at some point need to really stop for a moment and ponder whether their leadership, their school, and their fans are really acting like good guys...or bad guys in all this. Do they have the best interests of the game at heart. A good place to start is Gordon Gee and work your way out.

Reminds me of a Christmas special, how does that go? Oh yea

"You're a mean one...Mr. Grinch. You reallllly aaaarrreee a heeeel!"

If they decide to go with a new Division I that would mean all the current non-P5 schools would be reclassified to Division II.

There has always been a single sport exception in other sports so could leagues like the MAC be grandfathered into Division I for football but have their other sports play in Division II?

There are 351 schools with only 65 in the P5. A division II with 27 conferences (minus B1G, ACC, SEC, PAC, B12) would still have a very marketable NCAA basketball tournament.

Big East
Atlantic 10
Colonial Athletic
American Athletic
Conference USA
MAC
Horizon
Ivy League
Missouri Valley
Sun Belt
Mountain West
West Coast

That is 12 conferences right there outside of the P5 that would be compelling TV draws and worthy of multiple bids in the NCAA tournament. The P5 may control 90% of the TV viewership in football but its more like 25% in basketball.

The NCAA tournament isn't just the money paid out to the participants, a large portion is distributed back to the conferences in grants-in-aid support an amount close to 1 million per school.

Back in 1996 at the conclusion of the last big reshuffling period, the money schools of FBS football pushed to have the voting structure changed to the benefit of the big football schools. The ACC, B1G, BE, SEC, B12, PAC and CUSA were all given 3 votes (21 in total). At the time there was about 28 conferences in total and 250 schools. The other 21 conferences were given 1 vote each so the 7 biggest football conferences had equal voting power with the other 21 conferences. Notre Dame was also given 1 vote.

Over the last 15 years more schools moved up. There are now 32 conferences. To compensate the NCAA gave each of the MAC, SBC, WAC and MWC an extra 1/2 vote (1.5 total). Then realignment comes around and all of the sudden a have not like MTSU is in a 3 vote conference and the WAC has 1.5 votes for teams like Grand Canyon University. The BE still has 3 votes but is now a basketball only league while the AAC only has one.

What was once a coalition of the willing for the Big Football schools in FBS no longer works because they only control 15 votes to 33 votes from the other conferences. To make matters worse they don't have the leverage as 65 schools to force a rebalancing of the votes. When it was all of the FBS conferences plus the BB only of CUSA and BE they had the leverage to say to the NCAA we can take our ball and walk.

The NCAA tournament has 20 years to go on its conference and many new basketball powers have surfaced over the last 15 years. They are not dependent on the ACC, B1G, SEC, PAC, B12 for viewership. This is why the president of NCAA is like go ahead and leave to form a 4th subdivision, see if anyone cares.

(06-02-2013 06:28 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:33 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The don't work because they aren't enforced...I mean how long has EMU been allowed to just have the parents of the players and the band in the stands but nothing said to them

Actually EMU does get the attendance but gets it later after pepsi buys the tickets at the end of the season. Crazy enough it fits the rules. Whatever rule you can think of that won't screw somebody important in a P5 conference can be circumvented with some creativity (just like about every law ever made).

They already tried to ditch the MAC once and failed I guess we go for round two.

The main reason the MAC was selected by Division 1-A was that at the time the B1G and PAC were against the split and wanted the MAC and Big West to be involved as counterweights to the College Football Association (CFA)

The CFA controlled the TV rights of the SEC, ACC, WAC and Independents and negotiated a shared contract worth 1 million per school. It is for the very reason of their participation in the CFA that CUSA and the WAC landed a 1 million per school TV deal when the CFA broke up in the 90's and have been at that level ever since.

(05-31-2013 10:02 AM)CommuterBob Wrote:  The stipend is an excuse. For what I have no idea. The reality is that the P5 schools are not in solidarity on the stipend issue. There were P5 schools that helped shoot it down. It wasn't just the rest of D1. It's really laughable that they are claiming this as the issue that is driving the wedge, when it really isn't.

The P5 already have the lion's share of the revenue, have the majority of power within the NCAA structure, and have successfully scapegoated the NCAA into being the perceived evil of college athletics (when it really and truly is the universities themselves). If they want to breakaway, fine. Let them. But at least be honest with those intentions. What purpose does a breakaway really serve?

More money? Not that much more really.

More power? Hardly.

More prestige? Doubtful.

A break away has everything to do with one thing, voting rights.

Realignment has mucked up the voting structure to the point where Middle Tennessee has as much voting power as Tennessee. That is not what the Big Boys intended when they redistricted the voting rights back in 1997.

The redistricting has given CUSA, MAC, MWC, WAC and BE additional votes to use against P5 legislation and the P5 don't have any leverage for redistricting because the NCAA Tournament has 20 more years on its contract and with 351 schools if 65 leave it wouldn't destroy March Madness with the development of the mid major conferences over the last 15 years.

What I could see happening is the P5 split and leave the super division BUT allow other leagues to come with if they'll accept a redistricting. The P5 leagues with 2 votes and the G5 with 1 votes. The G5 will accept this deal rather than be forced down a division.

To spice things up for other sports, I can see the P5 inviting the Big East, WCC, MVC, Big West and Atlantic 10 just to give an option for Independents. Army and Navy would have to move from the Patriot to the A10. Idaho would have to switch from the Big Sky to the Big West.

A super division of 15 conferences and 180 schools would be the ideal size. Since the FB conferences wouldn't be raiding the BB only leagues there would not be a fear of membership creep. Additions to the G5 ranks would be minimal since everyone has a membership of 12.

The general public would hardly know the difference if the other 17 conferences went missing. Football would go on as is and the new NCAA basketball tournament would have all the familiar names.

(06-02-2013 06:28 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:33 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The don't work because they aren't enforced...I mean how long has EMU been allowed to just have the parents of the players and the band in the stands but nothing said to them

Actually EMU does get the attendance but gets it later after pepsi buys the tickets at the end of the season. Crazy enough it fits the rules. Whatever rule you can think of that won't screw somebody important in a P5 conference can be circumvented with some creativity (just like about every law ever made).

They already tried to ditch the MAC once and failed I guess we go for round two.

EMU averages less than 4000 fans per game according to the data... Biloxi Senior High School...5500.

(06-09-2013 12:02 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 06:28 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 12:33 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  The don't work because they aren't enforced...I mean how long has EMU been allowed to just have the parents of the players and the band in the stands but nothing said to them

Actually EMU does get the attendance but gets it later after pepsi buys the tickets at the end of the season. Crazy enough it fits the rules. Whatever rule you can think of that won't screw somebody important in a P5 conference can be circumvented with some creativity (just like about every law ever made).

They already tried to ditch the MAC once and failed I guess we go for round two.

EMU averages less than 4000 fans per game according to the data... Biloxi Senior High School...5500.

Only every other year though.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...17526.html


Slive's turn.

(06-16-2013 09:23 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...17526.html


Slive's turn.

This issue may decide who forms their own division and who doesn't come long before the P5 breaks off for other reasons.... good article H1.

(05-30-2013 07:39 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  D-super 1

The in crowd!

(05-31-2013 08:35 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 07:43 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 06:05 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  Its going to happen eventually. A P5 FB division within the NCAA is the best compromise.

It's going to happen and no whining from the G5 is going to stop it.

Right now there is pretty sharp divide between the conferences that average 50K+ in attendance (The P5) and the ones that average less than 30K (everybody else)

Ok sure lets make the dividing line 50k in attendance. Not to mention there's at least a dozen P5 that don't average 50k.

Conference average, not individual school average.

That's a stupid way to go about doing that. It's one thing to say you should have to have a 50k stadium and average 40k to be in the new division. What your proposing is just going to create a whole new level of leeches named Iowa States, Indiana's, Oregon States, Dukes, etc.