(06-02-2013 08:49 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  I'm not really sure why everyone's getting so worked up for an associate membership. I mean, Cal Poly is an associate member of the PAC-12 for swimming and nobody makes a big deal out of it.

This is a big deal because:

1) Johns Hopkins has won the second-most men's national championships all-time.
2) This gives the B1G enough teams to form a conference with an AQ to the post season.
3) There was speculation that other conferences (Big East, ACC) were trying to get JH to join.
4) This probably kills the ECAC Lacrosse league.

As for what happens to the rest of the ECAC teams....Fairfield can join the MAAC. Not sure why they're not there already; they're not Loyola. The NEC needs teams as Quinnipiac is leaving for the MAAC. Hobart would fit there or the MAAC. Bellarmine could go to the new A-Sun-sponsored conference. Not sure what Air Force will do. Maybe the Patriot League will take them.

(06-02-2013 06:08 PM)goofus Wrote:  I don't know much about the "other" sports in the Big Ten. I always thought that the Big Ten did not have affiliate members, which is one reason Notre Dame could not join the Big Ten.

Also thought that all members of the Big Ten were CIC members too. This move confuses me.

Isnt the University of Chicago a B1G affliate member?

(06-02-2013 10:24 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 06:08 PM)goofus Wrote:  I don't know much about the "other" sports in the Big Ten. I always thought that the Big Ten did not have affiliate members, which is one reason Notre Dame could not join the Big Ten.

Also thought that all members of the Big Ten were CIC members too. This move confuses me.

Isnt the University of Chicago a B1G affliate member?

Yes, because they were an original big ten school, they just don't have any D1 sports.

Hopkins is essentially going to be Uchicago with lax.

Yet another Mid Atlantic top grade Institution to add to the Big Ten. I realize most folks here will look at this in simplistic fashion but a few folks seem to have the idea.

Lacrosse does have a small fan base true, it may be growing but that isnt even necessary. The small portion of people that do follow Lacrosse are very disproportionate in terms of influence.

JHU is a big grab for the Big Ten and for the CIC. The world does not revolve around sports. At certain levels, sports are just an excuse to get together and talk about more important things. Lacrosse is like an unrealized Golf.

I imagine we will be seeing some Big Ten Institutional announcements about raising up some Lacrosse clubs to full competition level. They are all going to want to get in on this.

(06-02-2013 10:38 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yet another Mid Atlantic top grade Institution to add to the Big Ten. I realize most folks here will look at this in simplistic fashion but a few folks seem to have the idea.

Lacrosse does have a small fan base true, it may be growing but that isnt even necessary. The small portion of people that do follow Lacrosse are very disproportionate in terms of influence.

JHU is a big grab for the Big Ten and for the CIC. The world does not revolve around sports. At certain levels, sports are just an excuse to get together and talk about more important things. Lacrosse is like an unrealized Golf.

I imagine we will be seeing some Big Ten Institutional announcements about raising up some Lacrosse clubs to full competition level. They are all going to want to get in on this.

Not to mention, unlike the case with Big East/ACC + Notre Dame, you have a conference taking on a big-name institution not only for academics but for them being one of the best of the best of all time in the specific sport.

Notre Dame historically is above average in basketball, great in lacrosse, but legendary in football. And refuses to join anyone for football. They're a great add for any conference due to their excellence in academics and all-around sports, but the issue is that they do not bring their #1, legendary program to the fray. This is why the Big Ten wouldn't give in to Notre Dame, and vice versa, Notre Dame couldn't get what they wanted out of the Big Ten in what basically was a half century long courtship that was never successfully closed.

Hopkins is legendary in lacrosse and joining for lacrosse, which is why it makes more sense for the conference to add them as an associate member.

i think alot of people are making to much of this, it really boils down to very few schools can remain independent in todays NCAA. unlike football which generates revenue, lacrosse is growing but largely remains a niche sport. also keep in mind that JHU has it's own tv deal with ESPN that they aren't giving up, so their membership is not going to produce much content for the BTN.

(06-02-2013 10:58 PM)mj4life Wrote:  i think alot of people are making to much of this, it really boils down to very few schools can remain independent in todays NCAA. unlike football which generates revenue, lacrosse is growing but largely remains a niche sport. also keep in mind that JHU has it's own tv deal with ESPN that they aren't giving up, so their membership is not going to produce much content for the BTN.

JHU gets Big Ten programs seen more on ESPN2 which can drive more Big Ten alumni and fans to watch Big Ten Lacrosse. Then they can go and watch the other teams on BTN as their interest rises.

Indirectly JHU can still help drive BTN viewership of Lacrosse.

(06-02-2013 08:49 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  I'm not really sure why everyone's getting so worked up for an associate membership. I mean, Cal Poly is an associate member of the PAC-12 for swimming and nobody makes a big deal out of it.

Partly because Hopkins is one of the biggest programs in the sport. Partly because lacrosse is the 3rd biggest revenue sport for a lot of D-1A schools, and some smaller schools even have it as their biggest revenue sport. That puts it ahead of every other sport except hockey, mbb, and fb.

And partly because it's freaking Johns Hopkins joining the CIC. They're the #1 research school in the world by a huge margin, with a budget of over $2 billion a year. There's only three other universities that have more than half the research funding that Hopkins does, and two are in the Big 10 (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Washington). While the Ivy League could make an argument before that they were even with the CIC, the additions of Rutgers, UMD, and Hopkins put the CIC way ahead.

(06-02-2013 08:52 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 08:47 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Lacrosse is one of the fastest growing sports in the country. The ACC and B1G will dominate for years to come.

Maybe it's a midwest/mid-Atlantic thing. Here in California I've never heard anyone ever utter the word lacrosse unless it was related to the Duke lacrosse team scandal. I doubt you could even find 1 person out of 100 who could describe what the game or the equipment look like.

I've heard more discussion of and enthusiasm for curling here in LA than for lacrosse.

It's a big subject for this board, but living in Columbus, Ohio I've never really heard anyone say anything about it.

(06-02-2013 10:38 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yet another Mid Atlantic top grade Institution to add to the Big Ten. I realize most folks here will look at this in simplistic fashion but a few folks seem to have the idea.

It certainly legitimizes them for the sport immediately having both JHU and Maryland.

Since they basically overlap the same markets I'm not convinced it increases their foothold significantly in the mid-Atlantic per se.

But the real test of how well the BiG's eastern strategy will work depends upon PSU football not falling too far back as a result of their recent woes and Maryland and Rutgers having some success in conference in both revenue sports.

The other issue for the BiG is that despite having a more substantive presence along the I-95 corridor than the ACC can it brand itself as the conference of both the Midwest and the Northeast?

In the latter regard, I think the ACC has the natural edge if the Old ACC institutions can get on board with it. But I never underestimate the BiG.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-02-2013 10:26 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 10:24 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 06:08 PM)goofus Wrote:  I don't know much about the "other" sports in the Big Ten. I always thought that the Big Ten did not have affiliate members, which is one reason Notre Dame could not join the Big Ten.

Also thought that all members of the Big Ten were CIC members too. This move confuses me.

Isnt the University of Chicago a B1G affliate member?

Yes, because they were an original big ten school, they just don't have any D1 sports.

Hopkins is essentially going to be Uchicago with lax.

No, Chicago is only a member of the CIC. Chicago is not an affiliate of the Big Ten Conference. The CIC is a separate entity from the Big Ten Conference with separate membership invitations (RU and MD are joining this year) and with separate annual membership dues and separate governance, although obviously it closely aligned and influenced by the B10 since their memberships are identical except for Chicago. Chicago fully withdrew from the Big Ten prior to the formation of the CIC and was invited only into the CIC, by the CIC, after its formation. People may not realize it, but until recently the UIC (University of Illinois at Chicago) held guest membership in the CIC (not full membership). The CIC in theory makes its own decisions.

There is also some confusion about "full" and "partial" and "affiliate" membership. In the world of conference legalities, a full member is a school with full voting rights. Notre Dame is a full member of the ACC, they just don't participate in ACC football. Likewise, Clemson is a full member of the ACC that doesn't participate in ACC lacrosse. Now, you might think ND is the only school to field a sport as an independent while not participating in the conference of their primary membership, but off the top of my head I can think of two instances: Miami was an independent in baseball while a member of the Big East and Providence has recently been an independent in women's volleyball as a member of the Big East. Perhaps you can call these partial memberships, I don't know, but legally, they were all full memberships with full voting rights.

Affiliate membership happens all the time and the affiliate schools have little or no legal standing with the main decision making bodies of the conference, although they will usually have some say with the committees that make decision about the sports the are affiliates in. Famously, Temple was an affiliate of the Big East for football prior to 2003, and that is how they were so easily removed: they were never a full member. Kentucky and South Carolina are currently affiliate members of of Conference USA for soccer. San Diego State is a current affiliate member of Pac-12 soccer. Unless there is something unprecedented afoot, JHU is going to be an affiliate member of Big Ten lax and that is it. They aren't going to be given full membership, or partial membership, but affiliate membership only in men's and women's lax. Whether the CIC decides to invite them (and if they accept) is a totally different decision. The CIC could in theory invite anyone it wanted to, including Harvard, Yale and Princeton. But if JHU has secured its demands outlined by its affiliation committee's letter to alumni, such as retaining its ESPNU contract with full rights to home games, a membership evaluation after three years, and only an initial member term of five years, then I highly doubt the CIC will even consider inviting them. Perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, as been outlined numerous times, it would not be a significant development in the real world of actual research for any of the schools involved no matter what sort of fluff would be on the press release.

(06-02-2013 11:08 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 10:38 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yet another Mid Atlantic top grade Institution to add to the Big Ten. I realize most folks here will look at this in simplistic fashion but a few folks seem to have the idea.

It certainly legitimizes them for the sport immediately having both JHU and Maryland.

Since they basically overlap the same markets I'm not convinced it increases their foothold significantly in the mid-Atlantic per se.

But the real test of how well the BiG's eastern strategy will work depends upon PSU football not falling too far back as a result of their recent woes and Maryland and Rutgers having some success in conference in both revenue sports.

The other issue for the BiG is that despite having a more substantive presence along the I-95 corridor than the ACC, is can it brand itself as the conference of both the Midwest and the Northeast?

In the latter regard, I think the ACC has the natural edge if the Old ACC institutions can get on board with it. But I never underestimate the BiG.

Cheers,
Neil

How does the ACC have the natural edge? It's a southern conference half made up of Big East members. At best it's a push.

(06-03-2013 12:20 AM)woomba Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 11:08 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 10:38 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yet another Mid Atlantic top grade Institution to add to the Big Ten. I realize most folks here will look at this in simplistic fashion but a few folks seem to have the idea.

It certainly legitimizes them for the sport immediately having both JHU and Maryland.

Since they basically overlap the same markets I'm not convinced it increases their foothold significantly in the mid-Atlantic per se.

But the real test of how well the BiG's eastern strategy will work depends upon PSU football not falling too far back as a result of their recent woes and Maryland and Rutgers having some success in conference in both revenue sports.

The other issue for the BiG is that despite having a more substantive presence along the I-95 corridor than the ACC, is can it brand itself as the conference of both the Midwest and the Northeast?

In the latter regard, I think the ACC has the natural edge if the Old ACC institutions can get on board with it. But I never underestimate the BiG.

Cheers,
Neil

How does the ACC have the natural edge? It's a southern conference half made up of Big East members. At best it's a push.

Because it's a natural extension in terms of perception. Think East Coast version of the Pac.

Besides, where do northeasterners, sports fans or not basically wind up? In Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, and especially Florida not just in terms of employment but early retirements as well.

Now midwesterners certainly wind up in NYC and DC areas due to employment, but how many actually wind up in Jersey and Maryland per se that aren't due to employment in and around those two metro areas?

Marketing is about visualization. If the brand makes sense to people, it's easier to sell. The ACC brand never truly made sense except in the states of Maryland, Virginia, and the Carolinas.

They expanded southward to Georgia and Florida and then expanded both northward, south, and in the middle of ACC territory back in 2003. The expansion in 2011 was to the north and the last two additions were geographical midwestern and a combo southern/midwestern.

But here, even the outliers ND and Louisville have strong (ND) to solid (Louisville) brand recognition in the northeast as being associated with the northeast.

That's not true for the outliers in the BiG.

Now, can the BiG overcome that? Sure. But the edge is to the ACC.

Cheers,
Neil

(06-02-2013 09:46 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 08:52 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 08:47 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Lacrosse is one of the fastest growing sports in the country. The ACC and B1G will dominate for years to come.

Maybe it's a midwest/mid-Atlantic thing. Here in California I've never heard anyone ever utter the word lacrosse unless it was related to the Duke lacrosse team scandal. I doubt you could even find 1 person out of 100 who could describe what the game or the equipment look like.

I've heard more discussion of and enthusiasm for curling here in LA than for lacrosse.

well SOMEONE outside of the east coast must have heard of lacrosse and know something about it. Since the following schools ?(among others) do have some form of a team

oregon
oregon state
washington
washington st
colorado
colorado st
texas
texas tech
tcu
baylor
smu
arizona
arizona st
california
michigan st
georgia tech
georgia
tennessee
arkansas
alabama
kentucky
florida
florida st
iowa
iowa st
purdue
indiana
wisconsin
minnesota
minnesota st
boise st
byu
stanford
usc
unlv
utah
clemson
missouri
kansas
kansas st
lsu
miami fla
idaho
montana
nebraska
vandy
ole miss
oklahoma

The only reason a lot of schools have women's LAX is to meet Title9. Hopefully beach volleyball will replace it at most CA schools. It would at least meet a demand, womens LAX does not.

The SEC should add Jai Alai to target the crucial and disproportionately wealthy Cuban demographic for their new network.

(06-03-2013 12:38 AM)omniorange Wrote:  

(06-03-2013 12:20 AM)woomba Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 11:08 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 10:38 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yet another Mid Atlantic top grade Institution to add to the Big Ten. I realize most folks here will look at this in simplistic fashion but a few folks seem to have the idea.

It certainly legitimizes them for the sport immediately having both JHU and Maryland.

Since they basically overlap the same markets I'm not convinced it increases their foothold significantly in the mid-Atlantic per se.

But the real test of how well the BiG's eastern strategy will work depends upon PSU football not falling too far back as a result of their recent woes and Maryland and Rutgers having some success in conference in both revenue sports.

The other issue for the BiG is that despite having a more substantive presence along the I-95 corridor than the ACC, is can it brand itself as the conference of both the Midwest and the Northeast?

In the latter regard, I think the ACC has the natural edge if the Old ACC institutions can get on board with it. But I never underestimate the BiG.

Cheers,
Neil

How does the ACC have the natural edge? It's a southern conference half made up of Big East members. At best it's a push.

Because it's a natural extension in terms of perception. Think East Coast version of the Pac.

Besides, where do northeasterners, sports fans or not basically wind up? In Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, and especially Florida not just in terms of employment but early retirements as well.

Now midwesterners certainly wind up in NYC and DC areas due to employment, but how many actually wind up in Jersey and Maryland per se that aren't due to employment in and around those two metro areas?

Marketing is about visualization. If the brand makes sense to people, it's easier to sell. The ACC brand never truly made sense except in the states of Maryland, Virginia, and the Carolinas.

They expanded southward to Georgia and Florida and then expanded both northward, south, and in the middle of ACC territory back in 2003. The expansion in 2011 was to the north and the last two additions were geographical midwestern and a combo southern/midwestern.

But here, even the outliers ND and Louisville have strong (ND) to solid (Louisville) brand recognition in the northeast as being associated with the northeast.

That's not true for the outliers in the BiG.

Now, can the BiG overcome that? Sure. But the edge is to the ACC.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree. In the formative times leading up to what would eventually become the Big East, a lot of those northern programs were well aware of the ACC and keen on their successful basketball model and eager to adopt it, just to a northern slant. When it became more feasible for conferences to grow and absorb, schools like the ones the ACC took from the Big East were only different in name only. Syracuse is about as natural an ACC school as one could get.

Gotta hand it to the B1G for this one. I'm sure UMD was no sideline player in this.

Get ready for that Fairfield and/or Siena to the CAA headline...

(06-02-2013 09:53 PM)zibby Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 08:49 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  I'm not really sure why everyone's getting so worked up for an associate membership. I mean, Cal Poly is an associate member of the PAC-12 for swimming and nobody makes a big deal out of it.

This is a big deal because:

1) Johns Hopkins has won the second-most men's national championships all-time.

They've won the first-most, and it's not even close.

(06-03-2013 07:19 AM)justinslot Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 09:53 PM)zibby Wrote:  

(06-02-2013 08:49 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  I'm not really sure why everyone's getting so worked up for an associate membership. I mean, Cal Poly is an associate member of the PAC-12 for swimming and nobody makes a big deal out of it.

This is a big deal because:

1) Johns Hopkins has won the second-most men's national championships all-time.

They've won the first-most, and it's not even close.

Yep, people forget about the pre-NCAA chosen champions. JHU has 24 of those.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...ssociation

Cheers,
Neil

(06-03-2013 01:29 AM)CPslograd Wrote:  The SEC should add Jai Alai to target the crucial and disproportionately wealthy Cuban demographic for their new network.

Why the animosity towards Lacrosse and people discussing it?

(06-03-2013 08:36 AM)brista21 Wrote:  

(06-03-2013 01:29 AM)CPslograd Wrote:  The SEC should add Jai Alai to target the crucial and disproportionately wealthy Cuban demographic for their new network.

Why the animosity towards Lacrosse and people discussing it?

My guess is that people rail against things that are considered "elitist" and lacrosse is very much one of those things.