(07-11-2013 11:22 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 10:48 PM)Poliicious Wrote:  Illinois club hockey team has been among the best in the ACHA. They have an on campus facility. If the athletic administration decided to upgrade to D1, attendance for hockey would easily be the #3 sport and quite frankly with the talent the state of Illinois has in NCAA college hockey (#5 or#6 behind only MN, MI, MA, NY and about tied with PA) coupled with the fact that no other instate program exists; Illinois has a much better opportunity of qualifying for a Frozen 4 Bid than an AQ bowl game.

If they could Illinois should drop football and put that revenue toward hockey, again much better chance of winning a national title in that sport than football.

if they have the arena and think they can compete and have the option to get 2 mill a year....moving up should be a no brainer

If the city does rebuild/renovate War Memorial, SU should field a D-I hockey team and use Tennity Ice Pavilion as a practice facility. Given our location, with state-of-the-art game facilities and an on-campus facility, SU could field nasty teams and make good money doing it.

(07-11-2013 11:42 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 07:59 PM)orangefan Wrote:  That is crazy tv money for college hockey, but Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and Michigan State are probably among the top 6 or 7 most valuable brands in college hockey. I posted recently on the ACC board that Hockey East's deal with NESN provides no cash consideration, with a link to the contract, which is publicly available. A deal similar to the B1G deal is simply not going to be available to anyone else.

The $2 mill estimate for each Big Ten hockey team likely also includes revenue from the new Big Ten Hockey Tournament three day autobid tournament, which will alternate between St Paul and Detroit.  The former WCHA championships (Final Five games) used to bring in over 100,000 fans for sessions over three days.  The CCHA finals would draw very well if Michigan, Michigan St, and maybe WMU were in the finals.  If Minnesota is playing Wisconsin in a Big Ten final in Detroit, the gate will be horrible. The WCHA used to allow its schools to sign contracts with their own networks, so Minnesota had a big contract with Fox Sports North. All North Dakota homes games were formerly televised nationally on Fox College Sports, while Denver had a contract with Fox Rocky Mountain.

Notre Dame's hockey will be broadcast exclusively on the NBC Sports Network, so it's hard to break out those hockey numbers from Notre Dame's existing NBC contract.

Can't find a link, but thought I heard the CBS Sports Network deal with the new NCHC will provide $100,000 / team. Notre Dame insistence on having its own contract was what probably sent Notre Dame to Hockey East, rather than the NCHC.

If that's true, Hockey East's days on top of the hockey world are very limited. The B1G already blows HE out of the water in big game attendance, plus B1G schools are bigger (more alumni) and have more stable revenue streams (BCS football, big-time basketball, and so on.)

B1G hockey isn't necessarily dominating the recruiting wars, so there's still hope for the NCHC and Hockey East. Here's the college players (mostly freshmen) drafted by the NHL. N Dakota lead with six drafted players. ECAC teams Yale and Quinnipiac were finalists last year, largely IMHO because of the number of 4-year players that stayed at those schools. Drafted players often leave before they are seniors, giving the "lower teams" a chance to win with experience and four years of team work.
http://www.uscho.com/2013/06/30/2013-nhl...-selected/

(07-11-2013 11:57 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 11:42 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 07:59 PM)orangefan Wrote:  That is crazy tv money for college hockey, but Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and Michigan State are probably among the top 6 or 7 most valuable brands in college hockey. I posted recently on the ACC board that Hockey East's deal with NESN provides no cash consideration, with a link to the contract, which is publicly available. A deal similar to the B1G deal is simply not going to be available to anyone else.

The $2 mill estimate for each Big Ten hockey team likely also includes revenue from the new Big Ten Hockey Tournament three day autobid tournament, which will alternate between St Paul and Detroit.  The former WCHA championships (Final Five games) used to bring in over 100,000 fans for sessions over three days.  The CCHA finals would draw very well if Michigan, Michigan St, and maybe WMU were in the finals.  If Minnesota is playing Wisconsin in a Big Ten final in Detroit, the gate will be horrible. The WCHA used to allow its schools to sign contracts with their own networks, so Minnesota had a big contract with Fox Sports North. All North Dakota homes games were formerly televised nationally on Fox College Sports, while Denver had a contract with Fox Rocky Mountain.

Notre Dame's hockey will be broadcast exclusively on the NBC Sports Network, so it's hard to break out those hockey numbers from Notre Dame's existing NBC contract.

Can't find a link, but thought I heard the CBS Sports Network deal with the new NCHC will provide $100,000 / team. Notre Dame insistence on having its own contract was what probably sent Notre Dame to Hockey East, rather than the NCHC.

If that's true, Hockey East's days on top of the hockey world are very limited. The B1G already blows HE out of the water in big game attendance, plus B1G schools are bigger (more alumni) and have more stable revenue streams (BCS football, big-time basketball, and so on.)

B1G hockey isn't necessarily dominating the recruiting wars, so there's still hope for the NCHC and Hockey East. Here's the college players (mostly freshmen) drafted by the NHL. N Dakota lead with six drafted players. ECAC teams Yale and Quinnipiac were finalists last year, largely IMHO because of the number of 4-year players that stayed at those schools. Drafted players often leave before they are seniors, giving the "lower teams" a chance to win with experience and four years of team work.
http://www.uscho.com/2013/06/30/2013-nhl...-selected/

That may be true, but how much longer do you think that will last if B1G teams can have budgets that are 20x what Hockey East budgets are?
As I understand it, the B1G has yet to formally drop a puck, so comparing currently non-existent B1G hockey to Hockey East isn't exactly fair. Only time will tell how the B1G does together, but given that the conference is concentrating a lot of fire power and a LOT of money into one place, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a synergistic effect. To be honest, I don't know a lot about college hockey, but I do know a lot about other college sports. It isn't a coincidence that Alabama football has been spending the most recently (by far) and has been absolutely dominant in that time. Unless hockey is a crazy outlier, the same should hold true.

Conspiracy Theory?

This isn't being driven at all by current revenues of Big Ten hockey. This is a strategic investment by the Big Ten to dominate college hockey. With Big Ten hockey on BTN, and with a big budget advantage, how long is Minnesota-Duluth going to stay competitive with U of Minnesota, how long is Western Michigan going to stay on the same level as Michigan and Michigan State, can Miami-Ohio keep up with Ohio State?

(07-12-2013 12:01 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  That may be true, but how much longer do you think that will last if B1G teams can have budgets that are 20x what Hockey East budgets are?
As I understand it, the B1G has yet to formally drop a puck, so comparing currently non-existent B1G hockey to Hockey East isn't exactly fair. Only time will tell how the B1G does together, but given that the conference is concentrating a lot of fire power and a LOT of money into one place, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a synergistic effect. To be honest, I don't know a lot about college hockey, but I do know a lot about other college sports. It isn't a coincidence that Alabama football has been spending the most recently (by far) and has been absolutely dominant in that time. Unless hockey is a crazy outlier, the same should hold true.

The new NCHC is specifically tayloring its type play and officiating to be competitive with the Major Junior system in Canada for recruits. Minnesota, which should be THE power, isn't for a couple of reasons: their emphasis on Minnesota-only kids directly from Minnesota high schools vs spending age 18, 19, and 20 in the USHL (a development league popular in the Midwest) and what some NHL teams view as poor preparation for the NHL, causing Twin City kids to look away from the gophers for better development. Minnesota fans are highly parochial toward home-grown kids and aren't really welcoming to those from outside the state. Wisconsin plays a defense first system, making it unattractive to offensive players (and more and more to Wisconsin fans). Denver and N Dak's type of play is often looked at more favorably by NHL teams, which helps with recruiting. Both DU and UND also have hockey facilities that are better than even NHL teams, while Michigan and Michigan State lag badly behind in hockey facilities. Boston College has practically owned the past 10 years: probably would take their coach retiring to drop them down enough notches.

(07-12-2013 12:30 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Conspiracy Theory?

This isn't being driven at all by current revenues of Big Ten hockey. This is a strategic investment by the Big Ten to dominate college hockey. With Big Ten hockey on BTN, and with a big budget advantage, how long is Minnesota-Duluth going to stay competitive with U of Minnesota, how long is Western Michigan going to stay on the same level as Michigan and Michigan State, can Miami-Ohio keep up with Ohio State?

I've been wondering the same thing about Big West baseball and the Pac12. Traditionally the top of the Big West has been competitive with the Pac, but they keep pumping more money into it, keep taking Big West coaches, and now they have the TV recruiting advantage. Pac12 baseball attendance is generally underwhelming, so if the Big West could get big crowds, they could recruit on that. But other than Hawaii and Fullerton, the Big West hasn't excelled at attendance either.

(07-12-2013 01:01 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 12:01 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  That may be true, but how much longer do you think that will last if B1G teams can have budgets that are 20x what Hockey East budgets are?
As I understand it, the B1G has yet to formally drop a puck, so comparing currently non-existent B1G hockey to Hockey East isn't exactly fair. Only time will tell how the B1G does together, but given that the conference is concentrating a lot of fire power and a LOT of money into one place, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a synergistic effect. To be honest, I don't know a lot about college hockey, but I do know a lot about other college sports. It isn't a coincidence that Alabama football has been spending the most recently (by far) and has been absolutely dominant in that time. Unless hockey is a crazy outlier, the same should hold true.

The new NCHC is specifically tayloring its type play and officiating to be competitive with the Major Junior system in Canada for recruits. Minnesota, which should be THE power, isn't for a couple of reasons: their emphasis on Minnesota-only kids directly from Minnesota high schools vs spending age 18, 19, and 20 in the USHL (a development league popular in the Midwest) and what some NHL teams view as poor preparation for the NHL, causing Twin City kids to look away from the gophers for better development. Minnesota fans are highly parochial toward home-grown kids and aren't really welcoming to those from outside the state. Wisconsin plays a defense first system, making it unattractive to offensive players (and more and more to Wisconsin fans). Denver and N Dak's type of play is often looked at more favorably by NHL teams, which helps with recruiting. Both DU and UND also have hockey facilities that are better than even NHL teams, while Michigan and Michigan State lag badly behind in hockey facilities. Boston College has practically owned the past 10 years: probably would take their coach retiring to drop them down enough notches.

I think his point is they will start taking your coaches and building equal or better facilities. Look how fast Oregon got good in baseball by spending tons or money.

(07-12-2013 12:30 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Conspiracy Theory?

This isn't being driven at all by current revenues of Big Ten hockey. This is a strategic investment by the Big Ten to dominate college hockey. With Big Ten hockey on BTN, and with a big budget advantage, how long is Minnesota-Duluth going to stay competitive with U of Minnesota, how long is Western Michigan going to stay on the same level as Michigan and Michigan State, can Miami-Ohio keep up with Ohio State?

Whatever Barry Alvarez seems to push for, Barry Alvarez gets. He hated the idea that Wisconsin had to fight with UM-Duluth and St Cloud St for playoff spots and hockey recruits . The B1G hockey league solved that.

The Dakota schools have also been pulling in Wisconsin and Minnesota football recruits that otherwise would be Wisconsin or Minnesota walk-ons, reducing Wisconsin's (and especially Minnesota's depth). So his solution: ban B1G schools from playing FCS games, so these kids don't get their one shot at the home-state team to prove themselves - which often sells them at looking at a Dakota school. Minnesota is like 1-3 vs Dakota schools, while Wisconsin has been in extremely tight games vs regional FCS schools (like N Iowa). NDSU, UND, SDSU, and USD football team rosters are mostly from those two states.

Ban playing FCS schools to protect the B1G's pride and recruiting depth.

(07-12-2013 01:09 AM)CPslograd Wrote:  I think his point is they will start taking your coaches and building equal or better facilities. Look how fast Oregon got good in baseball by spending tons or money.

Practically impossible to replicate UND's facility. Miami and Duluth and certainly UND's coaches can't be bought off by the B1G. (Penn State tried to get Duluth's).

(07-12-2013 01:09 AM)CPslograd Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 01:01 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 12:01 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  That may be true, but how much longer do you think that will last if B1G teams can have budgets that are 20x what Hockey East budgets are?
As I understand it, the B1G has yet to formally drop a puck, so comparing currently non-existent B1G hockey to Hockey East isn't exactly fair. Only time will tell how the B1G does together, but given that the conference is concentrating a lot of fire power and a LOT of money into one place, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a synergistic effect. To be honest, I don't know a lot about college hockey, but I do know a lot about other college sports. It isn't a coincidence that Alabama football has been spending the most recently (by far) and has been absolutely dominant in that time. Unless hockey is a crazy outlier, the same should hold true.

The new NCHC is specifically tayloring its type play and officiating to be competitive with the Major Junior system in Canada for recruits. Minnesota, which should be THE power, isn't for a couple of reasons: their emphasis on Minnesota-only kids directly from Minnesota high schools vs spending age 18, 19, and 20 in the USHL (a development league popular in the Midwest) and what some NHL teams view as poor preparation for the NHL, causing Twin City kids to look away from the gophers for better development. Minnesota fans are highly parochial toward home-grown kids and aren't really welcoming to those from outside the state. Wisconsin plays a defense first system, making it unattractive to offensive players (and more and more to Wisconsin fans). Denver and N Dak's type of play is often looked at more favorably by NHL teams, which helps with recruiting. Both DU and UND also have hockey facilities that are better than even NHL teams, while Michigan and Michigan State lag badly behind in hockey facilities. Boston College has practically owned the past 10 years: probably would take their coach retiring to drop them down enough notches.

I think his point is they will start taking your coaches and building equal or better facilities. Look how fast Oregon got good in baseball by spending tons or money.

Exactly. Coaches and facilities are cheap when you make 20x what the competition makes.

(07-12-2013 01:17 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The Dakota schools have also been pulling in Wisconsin and Minnesota football recruits that otherwise would be Wisconsin or Minnesota walk-ons, reducing Wisconsin's (and especially Minnesota's depth). So his solution: ban B1G schools from playing FCS games, so these kids don't get their one shot at the home-state team to prove themselves - which often sells them at looking at a Dakota school.

Whether or not that is his solution, it would take a highly blinkered and parochial perspective to believe that is what drove the Big Ten consensus, given that Iowa and the Illini would be arguing against the ban. It seems much more likely that it was the advice from the networks that FCS games water down the product that drove the conference decision to stop scheduling FCS games.

(07-11-2013 07:25 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Yeah, its no accident that the three existing Big Ten Lax schools, the Buckeyes, that School Up North and Penn State, are the three largest stadium, largest athletic department revenue schools.

It might be coincidence. Those are also the 3 schools that are farthest East. Lacrosse is more popular in the East. For example, Ohio has 50% more high school LAX programs than Illinois, despite Illinois having 11% bigger in population.

(07-12-2013 12:49 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 07:25 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Yeah, its no accident that the three existing Big Ten Lax schools, the Buckeyes, that School Up North and Penn State, are the three largest stadium, largest athletic department revenue schools.

It might be coincidence. Those are also the 3 schools that are farthest East. Lacrosse is more popular in the East. For example, Ohio has 50% more high school LAX programs than Illinois, despite Illinois having 11% bigger in population.

outside the east coast lax has hotspots all over the place. doesnt matter how many in state lax schools their are, as long as columbus is a hotspot that generates intrest, lax at osu will be successful. thats why we see cases where schools like denver and florida that can field decent programs. it all comes down to the local level not the state level

even if illinois or ohio has lots of lax HS programs, they dont turn out that many good lax players because the mentality of that sport over in that part of the country is that its for those not good enough for the baseball team. there are plenty of east coast kids to recruit. osu lax has 50 players, of which only 10 are from the state of ohio, of which ONLY ONE is not from the columbus area. osu doesnt need to recruit the entire state of ohio to be successful. they just need to look east and keep their top out of state talent from going elsewhere

(07-12-2013 12:41 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 01:17 AM)NoDak Wrote:  The Dakota schools have also been pulling in Wisconsin and Minnesota football recruits that otherwise would be Wisconsin or Minnesota walk-ons, reducing Wisconsin's (and especially Minnesota's depth). So his solution: ban B1G schools from playing FCS games, so these kids don't get their one shot at the home-state team to prove themselves - which often sells them at looking at a Dakota school.

Whether or not that is his solution, it would take a highly blinkered and parochial perspective to believe that is what drove the Big Ten consensus, given that Iowa and the Illini would be arguing against the ban. It seems much more likely that it was the advice from the networks that FCS games water down the product that drove the conference decision to stop scheduling FCS games.

There's no doubt that TV dollars drove those decisions, but Barry Alvarez was out strongly advocating on these issues in the media when he knew Minnesota (and Iowa on the FCS issue, especially because of N Iowa) strongly opposed his view. The hockey situation in Minnesota needed to be handled with kid gloves due to Minnesota's alignment with Minnesota State schools (which could have caused a firestorm in the Minnesota legislature), but Alvarez was like a bull in a china shop, pouring gasoline on the situation in the media. No one else in the Big Ten acted in the same manner.

I'd guess some are revenue generators out west too. Maybe baseball for some western schools?

The thing I would like to change most here is add baseball to revenue generating, but I'm not sure with the college season it's possible in cold weather states.

dude you have no idea, colleges/high schools in central new york have to practice in a basketball gyms more times than they can practice outside. it is insane as to how bad the weather makes it for these programs

(07-12-2013 12:49 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  It might be coincidence. Those are also the 3 schools that are farthest East. Lacrosse is more popular in the East. For example, Ohio has 50% more high school LAX programs than Illinois, despite Illinois having 11% bigger in population.

But the Buckeyes Lacrosse program was established in 1953, so I don't think the growth in HS lacrosse over the past decade can be used to explain the existence of the program.

(07-12-2013 03:36 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'd guess some are revenue generators out west too. Maybe baseball for some western schools?

The thing I would like to change most here is add baseball to revenue generating, but I'm not sure with the college season it's possible in cold weather states.

dude you have no idea, colleges/high schools in central new york have to practice in a basketball gyms more times than they can practice outside. it is insane as to how bad the weather makes it for these programs

It's like the heat in the south.

(07-12-2013 03:47 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 03:36 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'd guess some are revenue generators out west too. Maybe baseball for some western schools?

The thing I would like to change most here is add baseball to revenue generating, but I'm not sure with the college season it's possible in cold weather states.

dude you have no idea, colleges/high schools in central new york have to practice in a basketball gyms more times than they can practice outside. it is insane as to how bad the weather makes it for these programs

It's like the heat in the south.

yeah my northern upbringing prefers cold over burning heat anyday, but the snow is what causes issues with fields which is why football needs turf and baseball has just no chance to get good

(07-12-2013 03:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 03:47 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 03:36 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'd guess some are revenue generators out west too. Maybe baseball for some western schools?

The thing I would like to change most here is add baseball to revenue generating, but I'm not sure with the college season it's possible in cold weather states.

dude you have no idea, colleges/high schools in central new york have to practice in a basketball gyms more times than they can practice outside. it is insane as to how bad the weather makes it for these programs

It's like the heat in the south.

yeah my northern upbringing prefers cold over burning heat anyday, but the snow is what causes issues with fields which is why football needs turf and baseball has just no chance to get good

Back in the day when Colorado was good at football, Stoops would hold practice outdoors on the coldest days before we took a trip to Boulder. Just to get them acclimated to the change.

(07-12-2013 04:16 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 03:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 03:47 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(07-12-2013 03:36 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'd guess some are revenue generators out west too. Maybe baseball for some western schools?

The thing I would like to change most here is add baseball to revenue generating, but I'm not sure with the college season it's possible in cold weather states.

dude you have no idea, colleges/high schools in central new york have to practice in a basketball gyms more times than they can practice outside. it is insane as to how bad the weather makes it for these programs

It's like the heat in the south.

yeah my northern upbringing prefers cold over burning heat anyday, but the snow is what causes issues with fields which is why football needs turf and baseball has just no chance to get good

Back in the day when Colorado was good at football, Stoops would hold practice outdoors on the coldest days before we took a trip to Boulder. Just to get them acclimated to the change.

boulder vs syracuse have huge differences, playing outside in boulder in the fall isnt that big of a change for me....but then again im not from oklahoma