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big east was the most under rated conference of all time
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
Excellent post john01992 04-cheers
07-13-2013 10:15 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #42
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-12-2013 11:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  12 of the victories against the SEC came against Kentucky, Vanderbilt and Mississippi State.

That aside I agree with the OP that the Big East was greatly underrated for the vast majority of its existence and in it's prime was without question the equal of, or the better of, the other power conferences.
Mississippi State was ranked, or getting votes, both times WVU played - and beat 'em. WVU also beat SEC Champion Georgia in the 2006 Sugar Bowl, relocated to the Georgia Dome (another home game for the Dawgs) because of Hurricane Katrina...

I still remember UGA All-American Greg Blue talking about showing the Mountaineers some real SEC speed, about an hour before Steve Slaton started running right past Blue - untouched - every time he touched the ball, it seemed. Slaton ran 26 times for 204 yards and 3 TDs, and Greg Blue never touched him the whole game...

The Mountaineers ran for 382 yards, all told. That was a great day for WVU fans...
07-13-2013 10:21 AM
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Post: #43
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
The story probably goes back to the late 1970s early 1980s. The Big East had formed and Penn St tried to form an eastern all sports league. The trick though was that there would have been unequal revenue sharing in football. The choice for Syracuse and BC was to either stay in the BE or join the new league under those conditions. The two schools decided to stay. The BE tried to add Penn St but was voted down. To prevent the new league from forming though, the BE added Pitt which did have the votes. The thing eventually evolved to where you had the Eastern Indys (with Vt instead of PSU) and Easten bball powers in one league. Doesn't sound like a big deal but there is a big differences between the two groups that made living together hard.

It was and is impossible to have an Eastern football league that would be strong enough to garner national respect and not have Penn St.

Jackson
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2013 10:30 AM by Jackson1011.)
07-13-2013 10:26 AM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 01:51 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 01:04 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:37 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:15 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:03 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  What was the main cause of its demise?

There may be many different answers to that question. Some might think they should have raided the ACC before the ACC raided them, but I think it was the Big 10's winning of Penn State that helped to start their slide. Had Paterno thrown in with the Big East I think they would still be a great conference today. But in life it is always what it is, not what it could have been.

paterno was all in on the big east. what stopped that from happening was Providence. but even if they joined the BE things would have been interesting. miami, bc, cuse & pitt all fell right off the charts after psu was lost. (northeast football died when psu started looking west) plus you have the possibility that after psu, the BE could have nabbed fsu & nd

psu is like texas, there is a lot of ego/demanding special treatment that comes with that school, had they been in the BE who knows how that conference would have turned out

What do you mean by "Providence" the school or the conference HQ?

the school

You're mistaken about that. For those of you that do not know how the PSU "situation" went down, let me inform you.
PSU wanted to form a NEW all sport league. Syracuse and BC werent warm to the idea of leaving the relatively new BE. It was suggested that Penn St consider joining the BE in all sports except FB just like those 2 were. In fact it was Providence guy Gavitt that pushed it and really wanted it. I believe he was reluctant at 1st but did come around and became a proponent of PSU.
There was never an official vote nor did PSU "officially" apply, but there were several discussions about Penn St to gauge support. In the end syracuse, BC, Providence, Seton Hall and UConn were in favor while Georgetown , Villanova and ST johns were not. The idea died and the rest is history
Ive found this "vote" interesting because on this board many people lay the blame on the "BB SCHOOLS" for the failure to land PSU, when it was only 3 of them. (The same 3 that many wanted to include in a new hybrid BE)
07-13-2013 10:29 AM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 03:09 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:49 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:41 PM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:03 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  What was the main cause of its demise?

oh lets see,

1. having basketball schools & football schools with conflicting interests

2. letting one school (with a huge ego) run the show

3. rejecting penn state

4. the basketball schools telling miami to stick it

5. turning down a billion dollar tv contract

wasn't Pitt's chancellor in charge of negotiating the last TV contract; didn't he advise the BE to reject it right before Pitt, and Syracuse, announced they were leaving for the ACC?

is that the TV contract you mean?

this was before pitt/cuse left. the 8 football schools voted yes, the 7 basketball schools + notre dame turned it down.

yes thats right.....the deal failed because 8 non football schools voted against it

during the c7 split someone leaked a story about how when they got a 2nd offer the 8 FB schools offered to give 25% of the revenue to the BB schools if they agreed to vote yes. this was proposed during a meeting and an official from one of basketball schools said they should get 75% (of the football revenue) because this was "their basketball conference"

you cant fix that kind of stupid......this conference had some serious issues

You are so full of it. Pitt and Rutgers voted against it, in fact Pitt led the charge to turn it down! You are the trolliest of trolls or you are clueless about the events of the last 18 months.

from the reports ive read, the only BB schools to voye against it were seton hall and georgetown
07-13-2013 10:33 AM
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Post: #46
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 10:09 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 08:22 AM)Underdog Wrote:  The Big East was not "the most under rated conference of all time" or it wouldn’t have been raided multiple times. In fact, the ACC thought very highly of the Big East and did most of the raiding.

In other words, the _actual_ football strength of the Old Big East was better than the _perceived_ football strength, which meant that by moving schools from the Big East to the ACC, they would be more valuable. Because the existing conference was underrated.

The ACC may have thought, PRIVATELY, that the Old Big East was strong. But they kept that to themselves.

I agree with your point, but not with the term "underrated”. If the Big East had been a football first conference without the C7, it would have been perceived differently. The Big East was structured differently than the other power conferences. They seem to have the attitude that: "This basketball conference isn't on the same level as us when it comes to football, and we will prove it on the field." Moreover, I think that it was more arrogance on their part than the Big East being underrated or it wouldn't have received a BCS AQ. However, I agree that the ACC realized after on the field competition that the Big East was just as good if not better than it in football. Consequently, it made multiple raids on the Big East to improve its football brand and control the east coast—a.k.a. Atlantic Cartel Conference.
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2013 10:51 AM by Underdog.)
07-13-2013 10:43 AM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
lets be honset here, the ACC wisely went after the BE because they posed a threat to the ACC in FB as well as BB. They hoped to destroy their closest and biggest rival and become THE dominant all sport east coast(mostly) conference
07-13-2013 10:50 AM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 10:50 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  lets be honset here, the ACC wisely went after the BE because they posed a threat to the ACC in FB as well as BB. They hoped to destroy their closest and biggest rival and become THE dominant all sport east coast(mostly) conference

And the rest is history. 07-coffee3
07-13-2013 10:55 AM
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Post: #49
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 10:50 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  lets be honset here, the ACC wisely went after the BE because they posed a threat to the ACC in FB as well as BB. They hoped to destroy their closest and biggest rival and become THE dominant all sport east coast(mostly) conference

I’m in agreement with you—a.k.a. Atlantic Cartel Conference...
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2013 10:57 AM by Underdog.)
07-13-2013 10:56 AM
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Post: #50
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-12-2013 10:25 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 10:19 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 10:04 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  http://mcubed.net/ncaaf/tvc/sec/bigeast.shtml

thats the same site i used LOL

I was just trying to give a reference.

Thank God UGA is only listed twice, lol. **** the SEC! GO DAWGS!!
07-13-2013 11:09 AM
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Post: #51
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 10:55 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 10:50 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  lets be honset here, the ACC wisely went after the BE because they posed a threat to the ACC in FB as well as BB. They hoped to destroy their closest and biggest rival and become THE dominant all sport east coast(mostly) conference

And the rest is history. 07-coffee3

Louisville will appear on the last page of old Big East history. It has earned the right to be in the ACC….
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2013 11:16 AM by Underdog.)
07-13-2013 11:15 AM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 03:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 02:08 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 01:23 AM)billyjack Wrote:  To follow up on what gosports is saying, Providence the school voted in favor of admitting Penn State in the 80s, while Gavitt was still commissioner. Also, on Paterno's being "all in" on the Big East, Paterno wanted ridiculously unequal unfair benefits for Penn State football.

as far as i know the only school confirmed to have voted in psu's favor was syracuse.

the vote was 5-3 (5 yes 3 no, which made it one vote shy)

providence was "the basketball guard" of the big east, they were always the school that wanted to set a minimum basketball standard when adding big name football members. was it provy who cast the deciding vote? who knows. but if any school could have raised enough fuss to kill what should have been a no brainer deal, it was that school.

im not sure if psu ever asked for special treatment, but there is a lot of ego & demanding special treatment associated with that school. maybe that factored into the decisions of the football members, and contrary to popular belief a lot of the original football members were hesitant to form a football league out of the BE. you have reasoning to believe that psu got rejected for fb reasons but you also have reasoning to believe that bb was the reason for psu not being allowed in. but one things for certain, provy was the shotcaller of the conference, and they had the most to lose (political power, smallest school, basketball only) if psu joined

You are wrong as well on this one. Cuse and BC turned down PSU and then voted in Pitt shortly after. You have no knowledge of the history of the Big East, you have been wrong in every single post on this thread. I don't know if you are honestly mistaken or trolling, because if you are genuinely mistaken you are REAAAAALLLY far off.

In 1982, Penn State applied for membership, but was rejected, with only five schools in favor (Penn State needed six out of eight). It was long rumored that Syracuse cast the deciding vote against Penn State, but Mike Tranghese confirmed that this was not the case and that Syracuse had, in fact, voted for Penn State's inclusion.[7]

-straight from wikipedia

if thats not enough for you here lemme take a direct quote from mike tranghese

Despite all the negativity that comes out about Jake, he fought like crazy for Penn State to be in the league. Syracuse and Boston College really fought to have Penn State because Jake understood the importance of Penn State. What happened in the previous fall, Penn State had tried to form a football league. Coach Paterno has laid a lot of this at Jake’s feet, which I think is wrong. What never got written was that the basketball league was being pretty successful and they couldn’t agree on revenue sharing in football. There wasn’t going to be any revenue sharing. Jake just wasn’t going to do that. The next year Dave brought it up for discussion and Jake was absolutely supportive. We voted five different times and all five times Jake voted for Penn State. And Bill Flynn at Boston College, God rest his soul, voted for Penn State all five times. The reason that they didn’t get in was that the league was new, a lot of the directors felt it was a basketball league. Some of the directors felt that the concept of the Big East was big markets. It was a 5-3 vote that changed the face of history
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2013 11:46 AM by john01992.)
07-13-2013 11:45 AM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 07:43 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:49 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:41 PM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:03 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  What was the main cause of its demise?

oh lets see,

1. having basketball schools & football schools with conflicting interests

2. letting one school (with a huge ego) run the show

3. rejecting penn state

4. the basketball schools telling miami to stick it

5. turning down a billion dollar tv contract

wasn't Pitt's chancellor in charge of negotiating the last TV contract; didn't he advise the BE to reject it right before Pitt, and Syracuse, announced they were leaving for the ACC?

is that the TV contract you mean?

this was before pitt/cuse left. the 8 football schools voted yes, the 7 basketball schools + notre dame turned it down.

yes thats right.....the deal failed because 8 non football schools voted against it

Source? Because, although I can't find MY source right now, everything I remember is that in the initial vote (before the PAC deal), it was 12-4 in favor, with Georgetown, Pitt, West Virginia and Rutgers voting no.

Quote:during the c7 split someone leaked a story about how when they got a 2nd offer the 8 FB schools offered to give 25% of the revenue to the BB schools if they agreed to vote yes. this was proposed during a meeting and an official from one of basketball schools said they should get 75% (of the football revenue) because this was "their basketball conference"

Well, it's STILL our basketball conference, and we're getting 66% of the combined BE-AAC TV revenue. Actually, if you assume that 25% of the AAC contract is for basketball, that's $45M/$60M, which brings you to 75% for basketball.

Because if the quote was real, I'm pretty sure it was that the valuable basketball PROGRAMS should get 75%, while the marginal FOOTBALL programs should get 25%. A response to the idea that football accounted for 75% of the revenue and basketball 25%.

Quote:you cant fix that kind of stupid......this conference had some serious issues

this was 25% - 75% of THE FOOTBALL TV CONTRACT. not the basketball money
07-13-2013 11:50 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #54
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
The disrespect of major college football in the Northeast goes back to at least the 1950s when the Ivies decided to stop playing (read: spending) major college football. As soon as that happened, the folks in the South and West began to look at CFB in the Northeast as almost like today people look at the G5 schools. That was always Paterno's primary crusade - establishing respect for major college football in the Northeast.

You have to remember that history always must be viewed in its time, not with the benefit of hindsight. That is almost always the mistake people make in these types of discussions. They fail to understand the time and place and therefore they don't understand (or remember) the landscape as a whole, which in turn leads to all kinds of false assumptions.

I want to make it very clear that Paterno was a brilliant man and that needs to be acknowledged before we can have any discussion on him or Penn State. He took a little cow college in the middle of nowhere and turned it into an absolute monster on every front. Also, as we all have seen over the pat few years, the entire university's culture has been constructed around not only the football program but also around Paterno himself. That is certainly scary on a lot of levels but it is also in some strange was, extremely impressive. I can't think of another university anywhere - not even Duke with Mike Krzyzewski or North Carolina with Dean Smith - whose entire institutional identity has been built around a single coach s happened up in State College.

In addition to being brilliant, Paterno was also extremely controlling and anything but altruistic. He didn't want to form a conference for the good of CFB as a whole or even for the good of CFB in the NE. He wanted to form a conference for his benefit and he had some very specific thoughts for how he wanted to do it. He wasn't interested in negotiating, it was his way or the highway - just as he had always operated up in State College.

Penn State went undefeated several times in the late 60s and early 70s and each time they were snubbed for the MNC by the voters primarily because of where they were located. Their schedule was considered too soft by the critics even though in reality their schedule was pretty similar to the teams they were being snubbed for. That is not at all differen than the criticism Miami faced when it was running the Big East in the 90s and early 2000s or that WVU faced when it took over after Miami, BC and VT defected to the ACC. It is also the same bias the AAC will face going forward even though most of that league is now in the South. Blind bias is always stupid and it will not be confined by petty geography.

Paterno believed that, by forming a conference, he could change that deeply ingrained mentality and that, he claimed, was always his impetus for wanting to form a conference in the first place. The problem was that he, like everyone else involved, wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to split revs equally in MBB and other sports but not at all in FB.

Also, in the late 70s and early 80s, Penn State played its basketball in a league called the Eastern Athletic Association, or as it was known at the time, "The Eastern 8." That league, which was the forerunner to the Atlantic 10, featured a number of different lineups but some of the key players were Villanova, Duquesne, Penn State, West Virginia, George Washington, Massachusetts, Pitt and Rutgers. Later, schools like St. Bonaventure, Rhode Island, St. Joe's and Temple joined but the Eastern 8 that I remember most fondly involved great rivalries between Pitt, Penn State, West Virginia and Duquesne (which at the time was seen as the best basketball program of the bunch by most outsiders).

Those were NASTY rivalries and a LOT of fun. Hell, at the time, Duquesne and West Virginia was more heated than Pitt/WVU. It seemed like every time those two schools played, controversy ensued in the form of bench clearing brawls, crooked time keepers, rowdy fans, you name it. It was a lot of fun to watch unfold.

Paterno, who was always a notorious, know-it-all pain in the arse to deal with - was Penn State's AD and football coach at the time. I think we now know that he remained in that capacity unofficially through the very end in a Vladimir Putin kind of way but that is a story for a different day. Anyway, the Eastern 8 was a great league and perfect fit for Pitt, Duquesne, West Virginia and Penn State. Unfortunately, Paterno came to believe that as long as the E8 and BE were around, his coveted all sports conference would never materialize. So, at the 1978 or '79 Eastern 8 league meetings, I can't remember which, he surprised everyone by promptly resigning from the league and announcing that he was taking PSU indie in everything - just as Notre Dame had done a few years before. However, what most upset everyone else was not that he resigned but rather how he choset to do it - via a press release that Tim Curley (who was then PSU's SID) slipped under everyone's hotel room door as they slept. There was no discussion, no debate, no nothing. Just a middle of the night press release that essentially gave everyone the finger.

So when people talk about this issue and fail to mention the ENORMOUS mistrust that existed at the time between everyone, I think that's a disingenuous discussion. It was MUCH more than the wise old sage Paterno saw the future and others did not. Everyone knew that the Supreme Court's ruling in favor of the CFA was a game-changer. Perhaps we all varied on how much of a game changer it would actually prove to be but nobody failed to recognize that it was going to change a lot of things. Where people disagreed (strongly) was with how the league would be structured and who was going to have the most say on various issues.

Paterno wanted to run the whole thing and that made everyone who had options nervous as they had seen how ruthlessly he operated and they did not wish to be under his control. So, when the Big East offered Pitt membership in the early 80s, we had no choice but to accept their offer. Turning it down would have been a very stupid decision on our part.

As an aside, Paterno's planned all sports league would have consisted of: Army, Boston College, Navy, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia and maybe Maryland. There was never any talk of adding the likes of Virginia Tech, Connecticut, Miami, Florida State, South Carolina, etc. Those are all byproducts of shameless revisionism.

Pfew...and to think that is the Cliff's Notes version of that story.
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2013 12:48 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
07-13-2013 12:27 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
i never meant to say that fsu & co were in talks to join that early, but my logic was that if the indys in the NE could of pulled off sooner or later they could of attracted miami/fsu & notre dame

miami was an outlier no doubt, but they were always from a cultural standpoint, a northeast school.

uconn/rutgers/temple clearly would not have been pressured into joining the be in fb had those schools been around
07-13-2013 12:40 PM
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Post: #56
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 10:50 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  lets be honset here, the ACC wisely went after the BE because they posed a threat to the ACC in FB as well as BB. They hoped to destroy their closest and biggest rival and become THE dominant all sport east coast(mostly) conference

On that note, it's worth mentioning that, growing up in the 1980s in New York and reading Sports Illustrated, I didn't consider the ACC a "major football conference", because they didn't have a spot in a major bowl. The Big Ten and Pac-10 had the Rose Bowl, the SEC had the Sugar Bowl, SWC had the Cotton Bowl, Big 8 had the Orange Bowl. So to me, those were the big time football conferences.

Then the Big East Football Conference formed and the BCS formed, and the independents went away.
07-13-2013 01:58 PM
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Post: #57
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 12:27 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  The disrespect of major college football in the Northeast goes back to at least the 1950s when the Ivies decided to stop playing (read: spending) major college football. As soon as that happened, the folks in the South and West began to look at CFB in the Northeast as almost like today people look at the G5 schools. That was always Paterno's primary crusade - establishing respect for major college football in the Northeast.

You have to remember that history always must be viewed in its time, not with the benefit of hindsight. That is almost always the mistake people make in these types of discussions. They fail to understand the time and place and therefore they don't understand (or remember) the landscape as a whole, which in turn leads to all kinds of false assumptions.

I want to make it very clear that Paterno was a brilliant man and that needs to be acknowledged before we can have any discussion on him or Penn State. He took a little cow college in the middle of nowhere and turned it into an absolute monster on every front. Also, as we all have seen over the pat few years, the entire university's culture has been constructed around not only the football program but also around Paterno himself. That is certainly scary on a lot of levels but it is also in some strange was, extremely impressive. I can't think of another university anywhere - not even Duke with Mike Krzyzewski or North Carolina with Dean Smith - whose entire institutional identity has been built around a single coach s happened up in State College.

In addition to being brilliant, Paterno was also extremely controlling and anything but altruistic. He didn't want to form a conference for the good of CFB as a whole or even for the good of CFB in the NE. He wanted to form a conference for his benefit and he had some very specific thoughts for how he wanted to do it. He wasn't interested in negotiating, it was his way or the highway - just as he had always operated up in State College.

Penn State went undefeated several times in the late 60s and early 70s and each time they were snubbed for the MNC by the voters primarily because of where they were located. Their schedule was considered too soft by the critics even though in reality their schedule was pretty similar to the teams they were being snubbed for. That is not at all differen than the criticism Miami faced when it was running the Big East in the 90s and early 2000s or that WVU faced when it took over after Miami, BC and VT defected to the ACC. It is also the same bias the AAC will face going forward even though most of that league is now in the South. Blind bias is always stupid and it will not be confined by petty geography.

Paterno believed that, by forming a conference, he could change that deeply ingrained mentality and that, he claimed, was always his impetus for wanting to form a conference in the first place. The problem was that he, like everyone else involved, wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to split revs equally in MBB and other sports but not at all in FB.

Also, in the late 70s and early 80s, Penn State played its basketball in a league called the Eastern Athletic Association, or as it was known at the time, "The Eastern 8." That league, which was the forerunner to the Atlantic 10, featured a number of different lineups but some of the key players were Villanova, Duquesne, Penn State, West Virginia, George Washington, Massachusetts, Pitt and Rutgers. Later, schools like St. Bonaventure, Rhode Island, St. Joe's and Temple joined but the Eastern 8 that I remember most fondly involved great rivalries between Pitt, Penn State, West Virginia and Duquesne (which at the time was seen as the best basketball program of the bunch by most outsiders).

Those were NASTY rivalries and a LOT of fun. Hell, at the time, Duquesne and West Virginia was more heated than Pitt/WVU. It seemed like every time those two schools played, controversy ensued in the form of bench clearing brawls, crooked time keepers, rowdy fans, you name it. It was a lot of fun to watch unfold.

Paterno, who was always a notorious, know-it-all pain in the arse to deal with - was Penn State's AD and football coach at the time. I think we now know that he remained in that capacity unofficially through the very end in a Vladimir Putin kind of way but that is a story for a different day. Anyway, the Eastern 8 was a great league and perfect fit for Pitt, Duquesne, West Virginia and Penn State. Unfortunately, Paterno came to believe that as long as the E8 and BE were around, his coveted all sports conference would never materialize. So, at the 1978 or '79 Eastern 8 league meetings, I can't remember which, he surprised everyone by promptly resigning from the league and announcing that he was taking PSU indie in everything - just as Notre Dame had done a few years before. However, what most upset everyone else was not that he resigned but rather how he choset to do it - via a press release that Tim Curley (who was then PSU's SID) slipped under everyone's hotel room door as they slept. There was no discussion, no debate, no nothing. Just a middle of the night press release that essentially gave everyone the finger.

So when people talk about this issue and fail to mention the ENORMOUS mistrust that existed at the time between everyone, I think that's a disingenuous discussion. It was MUCH more than the wise old sage Paterno saw the future and others did not. Everyone knew that the Supreme Court's ruling in favor of the CFA was a game-changer. Perhaps we all varied on how much of a game changer it would actually prove to be but nobody failed to recognize that it was going to change a lot of things. Where people disagreed (strongly) was with how the league would be structured and who was going to have the most say on various issues.

Paterno wanted to run the whole thing and that made everyone who had options nervous as they had seen how ruthlessly he operated and they did not wish to be under his control. So, when the Big East offered Pitt membership in the early 80s, we had no choice but to accept their offer. Turning it down would have been a very stupid decision on our part.

As an aside, Paterno's planned all sports league would have consisted of: Army, Boston College, Navy, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia and maybe Maryland. There was never any talk of adding the likes of Virginia Tech, Connecticut, Miami, Florida State, South Carolina, etc. Those are all byproducts of shameless revisionism.

Pfew...and to think that is the Cliff's Notes version of that story.


I agree with almost everything that you wrote. I have just one nit regarding the highlighted portion.

ND had always been an independent in football and in basketball (until it joined the Big East in 1995).

A minor point, I know. :)

Few people outside of the Pennsylvania area (non-PSU fans) and the Northeast really knew what an angry, controlling, vindictive pain in the ass Joe Paterno really was.

He had the Central Pa. press under control and had a personal fiefdom in Happy Valley.

But, that is another story and the guy is dead and his reputation trashed.

Karma wins out, usually.
07-13-2013 03:43 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #58
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 11:50 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 07:43 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:49 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:41 PM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 11:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  oh lets see,

1. having basketball schools & football schools with conflicting interests

2. letting one school (with a huge ego) run the show

3. rejecting penn state

4. the basketball schools telling miami to stick it

5. turning down a billion dollar tv contract

wasn't Pitt's chancellor in charge of negotiating the last TV contract; didn't he advise the BE to reject it right before Pitt, and Syracuse, announced they were leaving for the ACC?

is that the TV contract you mean?

this was before pitt/cuse left. the 8 football schools voted yes, the 7 basketball schools + notre dame turned it down.

yes thats right.....the deal failed because 8 non football schools voted against it

Source? Because, although I can't find MY source right now, everything I remember is that in the initial vote (before the PAC deal), it was 12-4 in favor, with Georgetown, Pitt, West Virginia and Rutgers voting no.

Quote:during the c7 split someone leaked a story about how when they got a 2nd offer the 8 FB schools offered to give 25% of the revenue to the BB schools if they agreed to vote yes. this was proposed during a meeting and an official from one of basketball schools said they should get 75% (of the football revenue) because this was "their basketball conference"

Well, it's STILL our basketball conference, and we're getting 66% of the combined BE-AAC TV revenue. Actually, if you assume that 25% of the AAC contract is for basketball, that's $45M/$60M, which brings you to 75% for basketball.

Because if the quote was real, I'm pretty sure it was that the valuable basketball PROGRAMS should get 75%, while the marginal FOOTBALL programs should get 25%. A response to the idea that football accounted for 75% of the revenue and basketball 25%.

Quote:you cant fix that kind of stupid......this conference had some serious issues

this was 25% - 75% of THE FOOTBALL TV CONTRACT. not the basketball money

Wrong again. The BBall schools NEVER collected FB TV money. NEVER EVER. The FB had a TV contract and the BBall had a contract and those who played both got paid from both and if you didn't play one of those sports you weren't included in those contracts. The last contract that was voted on and turned down was the first joint TV deal and the FB side said that the BBall schools should only get 25% of that contract, which is kind of insulting. So one of the BBall members said, it's the FB side who should only be getting 25%.

You keep on trying to turn the C7 into the villains of this scenario, like we were bumbling morons who destroyed this league. What destroyed the old Big East was the double dealing of the FB members and the lack of trust on their part in each other and the league as a whole. There was a reason why there was never a major NE FB conference. FB schools always have a wandering eye.
07-13-2013 04:48 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 03:43 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 12:27 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  The disrespect of major college football in the Northeast goes back to at least the 1950s when the Ivies decided to stop playing (read: spending) major college football. As soon as that happened, the folks in the South and West began to look at CFB in the Northeast as almost like today people look at the G5 schools. That was always Paterno's primary crusade - establishing respect for major college football in the Northeast.

You have to remember that history always must be viewed in its time, not with the benefit of hindsight. That is almost always the mistake people make in these types of discussions. They fail to understand the time and place and therefore they don't understand (or remember) the landscape as a whole, which in turn leads to all kinds of false assumptions.

I want to make it very clear that Paterno was a brilliant man and that needs to be acknowledged before we can have any discussion on him or Penn State. He took a little cow college in the middle of nowhere and turned it into an absolute monster on every front. Also, as we all have seen over the pat few years, the entire university's culture has been constructed around not only the football program but also around Paterno himself. That is certainly scary on a lot of levels but it is also in some strange was, extremely impressive. I can't think of another university anywhere - not even Duke with Mike Krzyzewski or North Carolina with Dean Smith - whose entire institutional identity has been built around a single coach s happened up in State College.

In addition to being brilliant, Paterno was also extremely controlling and anything but altruistic. He didn't want to form a conference for the good of CFB as a whole or even for the good of CFB in the NE. He wanted to form a conference for his benefit and he had some very specific thoughts for how he wanted to do it. He wasn't interested in negotiating, it was his way or the highway - just as he had always operated up in State College.

Penn State went undefeated several times in the late 60s and early 70s and each time they were snubbed for the MNC by the voters primarily because of where they were located. Their schedule was considered too soft by the critics even though in reality their schedule was pretty similar to the teams they were being snubbed for. That is not at all differen than the criticism Miami faced when it was running the Big East in the 90s and early 2000s or that WVU faced when it took over after Miami, BC and VT defected to the ACC. It is also the same bias the AAC will face going forward even though most of that league is now in the South. Blind bias is always stupid and it will not be confined by petty geography.

Paterno believed that, by forming a conference, he could change that deeply ingrained mentality and that, he claimed, was always his impetus for wanting to form a conference in the first place. The problem was that he, like everyone else involved, wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to split revs equally in MBB and other sports but not at all in FB.

Also, in the late 70s and early 80s, Penn State played its basketball in a league called the Eastern Athletic Association, or as it was known at the time, "The Eastern 8." That league, which was the forerunner to the Atlantic 10, featured a number of different lineups but some of the key players were Villanova, Duquesne, Penn State, West Virginia, George Washington, Massachusetts, Pitt and Rutgers. Later, schools like St. Bonaventure, Rhode Island, St. Joe's and Temple joined but the Eastern 8 that I remember most fondly involved great rivalries between Pitt, Penn State, West Virginia and Duquesne (which at the time was seen as the best basketball program of the bunch by most outsiders).

Those were NASTY rivalries and a LOT of fun. Hell, at the time, Duquesne and West Virginia was more heated than Pitt/WVU. It seemed like every time those two schools played, controversy ensued in the form of bench clearing brawls, crooked time keepers, rowdy fans, you name it. It was a lot of fun to watch unfold.

Paterno, who was always a notorious, know-it-all pain in the arse to deal with - was Penn State's AD and football coach at the time. I think we now know that he remained in that capacity unofficially through the very end in a Vladimir Putin kind of way but that is a story for a different day. Anyway, the Eastern 8 was a great league and perfect fit for Pitt, Duquesne, West Virginia and Penn State. Unfortunately, Paterno came to believe that as long as the E8 and BE were around, his coveted all sports conference would never materialize. So, at the 1978 or '79 Eastern 8 league meetings, I can't remember which, he surprised everyone by promptly resigning from the league and announcing that he was taking PSU indie in everything - just as Notre Dame had done a few years before. However, what most upset everyone else was not that he resigned but rather how he choset to do it - via a press release that Tim Curley (who was then PSU's SID) slipped under everyone's hotel room door as they slept. There was no discussion, no debate, no nothing. Just a middle of the night press release that essentially gave everyone the finger.

So when people talk about this issue and fail to mention the ENORMOUS mistrust that existed at the time between everyone, I think that's a disingenuous discussion. It was MUCH more than the wise old sage Paterno saw the future and others did not. Everyone knew that the Supreme Court's ruling in favor of the CFA was a game-changer. Perhaps we all varied on how much of a game changer it would actually prove to be but nobody failed to recognize that it was going to change a lot of things. Where people disagreed (strongly) was with how the league would be structured and who was going to have the most say on various issues.

Paterno wanted to run the whole thing and that made everyone who had options nervous as they had seen how ruthlessly he operated and they did not wish to be under his control. So, when the Big East offered Pitt membership in the early 80s, we had no choice but to accept their offer. Turning it down would have been a very stupid decision on our part.

As an aside, Paterno's planned all sports league would have consisted of: Army, Boston College, Navy, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia and maybe Maryland. There was never any talk of adding the likes of Virginia Tech, Connecticut, Miami, Florida State, South Carolina, etc. Those are all byproducts of shameless revisionism.

Pfew...and to think that is the Cliff's Notes version of that story.


I agree with almost everything that you wrote. I have just one nit regarding the highlighted portion.

ND had always been an independent in football and in basketball (until it joined the Big East in 1995).

A minor point, I know. :)

Few people outside of the Pennsylvania area (non-PSU fans) and the Northeast really knew what an angry, controlling, vindictive pain in the ass Joe Paterno really was.

He had the Central Pa. press under control and had a personal fiefdom in Happy Valley.

But, that is another story and the guy is dead and his reputation trashed.

Karma wins out, usually.

i rooted for psu pretty hard growing up due to family connections to that school, but I managed to see some of the warning signs. the arrest record was out of control, but classroom academics were top tier. those are two things that dont go hand & hand. that should have been a huge red flag for psu fans. legal issues involving players always seem to just disappear and it wouldnt surprise me if there was academic fraud involved with this team.

PSUs ego was on the same level as texas. the way they tried to dominate NE football and their 2-1 scheduling BS were some pretty telling signs. but the biggest issue surrounding this program was the basketball team. PSU had a massive athletic budget. only texas, ohio state, & michigan have comparable budgets/revenue year in year out. florida & alabama are not in the same tier as the 4 schools i just mentioned, but they are pretty close

but looking at the revenue these 5 schools put into basketball compared to psu. in terms of the higest paid coaches in cbb....

FL 3rd
osu 7th
texas 10th
um 14th
bama 19th

meanwhile psu has the lowest coaches salary in the b10. that includes (#11 in the b10) northwestern, a school with 1/3 the enrollment size, 1/4 the athletic budget, and is one of only five d1 schools (351 d1 basketball schools total) that have never played in the ncaa tourny. add in these stories of psu getting kicked off their own practice court to make way for bon jovi & the volleyball team only adds to how neglected this BB program was.

that is horrific considering pennsylvania is a major bb state and shows just how big of a "football problem" (i hate using that term) this school has. clearly this FB team ran the university in a way unprecedented compared to other football programs. im still ticked at the ncaa for the sanctions and think they were wrong. but part of me also thinks the 4 year bowl ban is good for the school. the next 3-6 years will be rough for psu, but it will give them time to reset. they will be forced to run an athletic program not centered around football. and it will finally allow the bb program to get the support it deserves.

clearly joe pa did a lot of good things for psu, but he did a lot of bad things as well
07-13-2013 04:49 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #60
RE: big east was the most under rated conference of all time
(07-13-2013 03:43 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(07-13-2013 12:27 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  The disrespect of major college football in the Northeast goes back to at least the 1950s when the Ivies decided to stop playing (read: spending) major college football. As soon as that happened, the folks in the South and West began to look at CFB in the Northeast as almost like today people look at the G5 schools. That was always Paterno's primary crusade - establishing respect for major college football in the Northeast.

You have to remember that history always must be viewed in its time, not with the benefit of hindsight. That is almost always the mistake people make in these types of discussions. They fail to understand the time and place and therefore they don't understand (or remember) the landscape as a whole, which in turn leads to all kinds of false assumptions.

I want to make it very clear that Paterno was a brilliant man and that needs to be acknowledged before we can have any discussion on him or Penn State. He took a little cow college in the middle of nowhere and turned it into an absolute monster on every front. Also, as we all have seen over the pat few years, the entire university's culture has been constructed around not only the football program but also around Paterno himself. That is certainly scary on a lot of levels but it is also in some strange was, extremely impressive. I can't think of another university anywhere - not even Duke with Mike Krzyzewski or North Carolina with Dean Smith - whose entire institutional identity has been built around a single coach s happened up in State College.

In addition to being brilliant, Paterno was also extremely controlling and anything but altruistic. He didn't want to form a conference for the good of CFB as a whole or even for the good of CFB in the NE. He wanted to form a conference for his benefit and he had some very specific thoughts for how he wanted to do it. He wasn't interested in negotiating, it was his way or the highway - just as he had always operated up in State College.

Penn State went undefeated several times in the late 60s and early 70s and each time they were snubbed for the MNC by the voters primarily because of where they were located. Their schedule was considered too soft by the critics even though in reality their schedule was pretty similar to the teams they were being snubbed for. That is not at all differen than the criticism Miami faced when it was running the Big East in the 90s and early 2000s or that WVU faced when it took over after Miami, BC and VT defected to the ACC. It is also the same bias the AAC will face going forward even though most of that league is now in the South. Blind bias is always stupid and it will not be confined by petty geography.

Paterno believed that, by forming a conference, he could change that deeply ingrained mentality and that, he claimed, was always his impetus for wanting to form a conference in the first place. The problem was that he, like everyone else involved, wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to split revs equally in MBB and other sports but not at all in FB.

Also, in the late 70s and early 80s, Penn State played its basketball in a league called the Eastern Athletic Association, or as it was known at the time, "The Eastern 8." That league, which was the forerunner to the Atlantic 10, featured a number of different lineups but some of the key players were Villanova, Duquesne, Penn State, West Virginia, George Washington, Massachusetts, Pitt and Rutgers. Later, schools like St. Bonaventure, Rhode Island, St. Joe's and Temple joined but the Eastern 8 that I remember most fondly involved great rivalries between Pitt, Penn State, West Virginia and Duquesne (which at the time was seen as the best basketball program of the bunch by most outsiders).

Those were NASTY rivalries and a LOT of fun. Hell, at the time, Duquesne and West Virginia was more heated than Pitt/WVU. It seemed like every time those two schools played, controversy ensued in the form of bench clearing brawls, crooked time keepers, rowdy fans, you name it. It was a lot of fun to watch unfold.

Paterno, who was always a notorious, know-it-all pain in the arse to deal with - was Penn State's AD and football coach at the time. I think we now know that he remained in that capacity unofficially through the very end in a Vladimir Putin kind of way but that is a story for a different day. Anyway, the Eastern 8 was a great league and perfect fit for Pitt, Duquesne, West Virginia and Penn State. Unfortunately, Paterno came to believe that as long as the E8 and BE were around, his coveted all sports conference would never materialize. So, at the 1978 or '79 Eastern 8 league meetings, I can't remember which, he surprised everyone by promptly resigning from the league and announcing that he was taking PSU indie in everything - just as Notre Dame had done a few years before. However, what most upset everyone else was not that he resigned but rather how he choset to do it - via a press release that Tim Curley (who was then PSU's SID) slipped under everyone's hotel room door as they slept. There was no discussion, no debate, no nothing. Just a middle of the night press release that essentially gave everyone the finger.

So when people talk about this issue and fail to mention the ENORMOUS mistrust that existed at the time between everyone, I think that's a disingenuous discussion. It was MUCH more than the wise old sage Paterno saw the future and others did not. Everyone knew that the Supreme Court's ruling in favor of the CFA was a game-changer. Perhaps we all varied on how much of a game changer it would actually prove to be but nobody failed to recognize that it was going to change a lot of things. Where people disagreed (strongly) was with how the league would be structured and who was going to have the most say on various issues.

Paterno wanted to run the whole thing and that made everyone who had options nervous as they had seen how ruthlessly he operated and they did not wish to be under his control. So, when the Big East offered Pitt membership in the early 80s, we had no choice but to accept their offer. Turning it down would have been a very stupid decision on our part.

As an aside, Paterno's planned all sports league would have consisted of: Army, Boston College, Navy, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia and maybe Maryland. There was never any talk of adding the likes of Virginia Tech, Connecticut, Miami, Florida State, South Carolina, etc. Those are all byproducts of shameless revisionism.

Pfew...and to think that is the Cliff's Notes version of that story.


I agree with almost everything that you wrote. I have just one nit regarding the highlighted portion.

ND had always been an independent in football and in basketball (until it joined the Big East in 1995).

A minor point, I know. :)

Few people outside of the Pennsylvania area (non-PSU fans) and the Northeast really knew what an angry, controlling, vindictive pain in the ass Joe Paterno really was.

He had the Central Pa. press under control and had a personal fiefdom in Happy Valley.

But, that is another story and the guy is dead and his reputation trashed.

Karma wins out, usually.

Everyone just remembers him as the funny old man who crapped his pants during a game and had to run across the field but they forget he was once young, and was in the same vein as those other older coaches who were control freaks like Woody Hayes and Bear Bryant. Imagine if either of them were in Joe Pa's boots? They would have acted in the same way. Back then (and even today) coaches are control freaks who want everything their way. Thats why you don't see coaches as conference commissioners anymore. There was flack after we hired Val Ackerman that we needed another Dave Gavitt, but those folks aren't around anymore. In this day and age you can't have a control freak coach call the shots for 9 or 11 other schools. Nobody will ever go for that.
07-13-2013 05:05 PM
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