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Poor Maryland....literally
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Wilkie01 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
The picture that cost $ 50 million Dollars!!
[Image: B1GSlide.png]
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08-20-2013 12:11 AM
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-19-2013 01:19 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  [bunch of other stuff]
Much of my Temple interest comes from trying to fill in that I-95 corridor that's now largely empty from D.C. to CT. But only a good/respectable program will actually help do that. If the ACC never creates a network Temple loses a lot of its potential luster.

We have Syracuse and UVA and VT draw well in D.C. So largely empty between D.C. and NY.
08-20-2013 12:13 AM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-20-2013 12:13 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-19-2013 01:19 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  [bunch of other stuff]
Much of my Temple interest comes from trying to fill in that I-95 corridor that's now largely empty from D.C. to CT. But only a good/respectable program will actually help do that. If the ACC never creates a network Temple loses a lot of its potential luster.

We have Syracuse and UVA and VT draw well in D.C. So largely empty between D.C. and NY.

Maryland was practically IN D.C. and Johns Hopkins, if only for only for lacrosse and its academic/research prestige, is in Baltimore.

Sure, UVA and VT have some influence there and Cuse has some in NYC, but I think it's fair to say Rutgers and UMD have equal or larger shares of those markets.
08-20-2013 10:53 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-20-2013 10:53 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(08-20-2013 12:13 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-19-2013 01:19 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  [bunch of other stuff]
Much of my Temple interest comes from trying to fill in that I-95 corridor that's now largely empty from D.C. to CT. But only a good/respectable program will actually help do that. If the ACC never creates a network Temple loses a lot of its potential luster.

We have Syracuse and UVA and VT draw well in D.C. So largely empty between D.C. and NY.

Maryland was practically IN D.C. and Johns Hopkins, if only for only for lacrosse and its academic/research prestige, is in Baltimore.

Sure, UVA and VT have some influence there and Cuse has some in NYC, but I think it's fair to say Rutgers and UMD have equal or larger shares of those markets.

The ACC has completely lost Baltimore, which is decidedly a Ravens town, but it may have been a mistake not to return JHU's phone call although lax is still a niche (in comparison to the major sports) even there. UMD may have an equal or greater share to VT+UVA in DC...maybe, maybe less, depends on the sport and how the anti-MD Georgetown crowd affects the numbers. SU doesn't pull in DC any more than Pitt, which is to say, not really at all except among alumni. But SU > than RU in NYC. NYC is really a college hoops town before it is a college football town. They're both behind ND in college football if you had to press people on an order, but the typical New Yorker would identify more with SU than RU, if they were forced to pick one.

As far as Philly, the ACC has scheduled its lax tourney there, not that it will necessarily draw that well or even get much attention. I've said before that the ACC should schedule a double/triple header basketball series with the Big Five every year in Philly at the Comcast Center. Think of something like rotating home and homes between SU-Nova, Pitt-Temple, St. Joe's-BC, LaSalle-ND, Penn-Duke, and maybe Drexel and someone with at least half the games played in Philly. That would get big attention there. Heck, you could do that in NYC with St. John's, Seton Hall, Manhattan, Fordham, Columbia, St. Francis, Wagner, Rider, LIU, Monmouth, Hofstra, etc. Same with DC: Georgetown, George Washington, American, Howard and send UVA and VT in there regularly. Rotate a couple teams a year through Philly, NYC or DC and bill it the ACC New York Series or ACC Big Five Challenge or ACC in DC Series...something like that, mainly, get the word ACC associated with the area. But I don't think it makes sense, under current conditions, to bring Temple in just for some hypothetical geographic hole.
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2013 11:47 PM by CrazyPaco.)
08-20-2013 11:45 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
The Comcast Center is at Maryland. The Comcast Center in Philly is a highrise of commercial offices, which would be an awkward place to play basketball.
08-20-2013 11:51 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-19-2013 01:19 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(08-18-2013 11:05 PM)HtownOrange Wrote:  
(08-16-2013 04:52 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I think that Florida State was open to offers, but the Big Ten wouldn't (for academic reasons, which was stupid in my opinion, but still there) and the SEC wouldn't (not interested in more expansion yet and looking for new markets if it is). That only left the Big 12 and the ACC was still offering a better deal than the Big 12, especially when you added in geography and travel costs.

Given those factors, Florida State was better off making the ACC itself more secure which meant a grant of rights.

I'm calling BS on the FSU to B1G nixed due to academics. FSU is ahead of UNL and has a rich football history over the last 30 years. If FSU was ever seriously considered, thB1G would have offered.

I could believe that the B1G would want other east coast teams before taking FSU, but to say that FSU was out based on academics is just crazy. Easily, FSU would be worth more than Maryland and Rutgers combined. FL population exceeds both states' population combined and FL is football crazy, unlike NJ or MD.

I call a little BS as well. Sure, Nebraska was in the AAU when they were admitted into the Big Ten, but even then, Big Ten members were already planning to vote Nebraska out of the AAU. FSU, per US News, is higher than Nebraska and only ~10(?) spots behind the lowest-ranked non-Nebraska school(s). FSU also has freshman stats on par or better than literally half of the current Big Ten's makeup.

Would've showing legit interest in FSU helped the Big Ten loosen up UVA and GT (I do believe there was some degree of discussion going on between these parties)? I don't see how it wouldn't have.

(08-18-2013 11:15 PM)HtownOrange Wrote:  One quick note on the payouts: The B1G payout is the total payout, or $25MM. This includes TV, BTN, Bowl, NCAA tourney and any other conference sources. This number is compared to the ACC TV deal only, or $15MM, while the ACC total payout was >$24MM. The ACC will payout an additional $4MM this season per the TV deal. The ACC could actually exceed teh B1G in total payout for 2013/2014 academic year!

Also, quick note on BTN estimate, the low side of the BTN estimate by Delaney was around $30MM/year. This was puffery, too, as the BTN has no NYC carriage and is already carried in NJ. The theory demands that NJ now make the BTN a premium and that NYC be forced to carry BTN if they want YES (Yankees network), which is NOT carried in full in NY or NYC. The BTN is fighting uphill battles on all fronts and the expectations are too high to reach the $30MM/year mark let alone the $40MM/year mark as delineated by Crazy Paco (hat tip to CP).

The ACC is in a good position. If the ACCN becomes a reality, which it will because ESPN is NOT foolish and if they smell money, they will act, then the payouts will increase more.

I also call BS on this.

First of all, the Big Ten will be renegotiating their tv deals in the next few years. So comparing the ACC's new deal with the Big Ten's old one is stupid. They will undoubtedly see a nice increase. Can we agree it'd at least be in the $5-10M/year/school range? I mean, the ACC saw an increase in average tv payouts from something like $7M to $19-20M in the last 3-4 years.

Secondly, the ACC is not going to receive $19+M per team from the tv deal in 2013-2014. That's simply the average payout, not the yearly payout. It's probably going to be around $12-15M because I think it was only around $10-12M last year.

Penultimately, I think your conference payouts are incorrect. The ACC was at $16.9M, the SEC at >$20.7M and the Big Ten at $25.7M.

Lastly, there is no guarantee there will ever be an ACC Network. A network has been an option for the last 4 years or so and has NEVER been seriously discussed by the conference. Even now they don't act like it's a pressing issue/need.

(08-19-2013 05:09 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(08-19-2013 04:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(08-17-2013 01:53 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(08-14-2013 12:47 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  So basically, when you take their higher Big Ten revenue...
...then subtract their high loan payments...

basically, Maryland's athletic budget = G5 normal.

Maryland = Temple (no offense, Owl fans!)

We're not in massive debt.

TRUE. I only meant from a net revenue point of view (and geographically similar). If the ACC replaced the Maryland "gap" with Temple someday, that would be ok with me.

We beat them in football and basketball in the same year with zero recruiting and conference advantage. Despite our shortcomings in football historically, I think we could definitely compete in the ACC.

I don't mind Temple, too much. I like the basketball. I like the large enrollment. I like the city/region it's located within. I like how football has shown life these last few years although, in general, I don't like your football (attendance, stadium, etc.).

At present you're a no-go. In 5-10 years? Who knows. But you have to be a respectable football program during that entire timeframe or it won't work. That's basically what Rutgers did. Pretty lousy history but a respectable last decade in a good market and poof. And you guys at least have a basketball program which they don't.

Much of my Temple interest comes from trying to fill in that I-95 corridor that's now largely empty from D.C. to CT. But only a good/respectable program will actually help do that. If the ACC never creates a network Temple loses a lot of its potential luster.

2011-12 Conference disbursements

Big 10: $23.8 million
ACC: $16.9 million

2012-13 Conference disbursements
Big 10: $25.8 million
ACC: $24.4 million

Remember, these disbursements are not just tv contract payouts.
08-21-2013 12:26 AM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-20-2013 11:51 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  The Comcast Center is at Maryland. The Comcast Center in Philly is a highrise of commercial offices, which would be an awkward place to play basketball.

Right, I've lived in both cities but I'm just confusing my Comcasts. I obviously meant Wells Fargo. It will always be the New Spectrum to me.
08-21-2013 12:28 AM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 12:28 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(08-20-2013 11:51 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  The Comcast Center is at Maryland. The Comcast Center in Philly is a highrise of commercial offices, which would be an awkward place to play basketball.

Right, I've lived in both cities but I'm just confusing my Comcasts. I obviously meant Wells Fargo. It will always be the New Spectrum to me.

It seemingly changes every year. It gives everyone a headache.
08-21-2013 12:31 AM
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Post: #89
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 12:26 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  2011-12 Conference disbursements

Big 10: $23.8 million
ACC: $16.9 million

2012-13 Conference disbursements
Big 10: $25.8 million
ACC: $24.4 million

Remember, these disbursements are not just tv contract payouts.

I wouldn't quote those Forbes numbers. They aren't correct. I haven't seen the ACC number for this year but the others do not match up (Big12 was around 19 not 26) and that was a projection based off of average payouts and estimates in January.
08-21-2013 02:10 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 02:10 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  
(08-21-2013 12:26 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  2011-12 Conference disbursements

Big 10: $23.8 million
ACC: $16.9 million

2012-13 Conference disbursements
Big 10: $25.8 million
ACC: $24.4 million

Remember, these disbursements are not just tv contract payouts.

I wouldn't quote those Forbes numbers. They aren't correct. I haven't seen the ACC number for this year but the others do not match up (Big12 was around 19 not 26) and that was a projection based off of average payouts and estimates in January.

Forbes numbers are almost never right, regardless of the topic.
08-21-2013 03:34 AM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
2012-2013
ACC - unknown
Big Ten - $25.7M (unsure of other revenue, uneven share for Nebraska?)
Big 12 - $22M for 8 returning members, $11M for 2 new members (not including third tier rights); $19.8M average for all 10
Pac 12 - unknown?
SEC - >$20.7M (not including bowl money retained by participants or income generated by third tier TV rights)


2011-2012
ACC - $16.9M per tax records (not including third tier rights)
Big 12 - not sure
Big Ten - $24.6M (uneven sharing with Nebraska brought this up?)
Pac 12 - not sure
SEC - $20.1M announced; $20.4M per tax records (not including third tier rights)


----------------------

The ACC really needs to be at the $20M range for 2012-2013. I don't believe - for a second - that the ACC topped $24M/school. And with the Big Ten already with a network and renegotiating its contract in the coming years, the SEC starting a network and Pac 12 having just started one, I don't see the ACC being able to make up ground on those 3. It seems very likely that by the time WVU and TCU are full members that they ACC may have surpassed them in per team payouts. But 4th place out of 5? 01-lauramac2
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2013 04:57 PM by Marge Schott.)
08-21-2013 04:10 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
Here's what ESPN reports for fiscal year 2012-13 (note: these are the averages of the public schools - private schools do not report):

Conf Conf payout* Media rights* Total $/team
B1G $24,945,360 $1,326,129 $26,271,488
SEC $18,862,014 $4,950,653 $23,812,667
XII $18,781,402 $2,733,992 $21,515,394
ACC $15,717,920 $3,418,415 $19,136,335
PAC $10,519,590 $1,788,052 $12,307,642

According to this, combined ACC payout was $19M and Big Ten payout was $26M. ACC was almost the same as Big XII and way ahead of Pac-12. Big Ten is just way out in front of everybody (even SEC). Of course, the ACC numbers are still from the old ESPN contract, so they WILL go up next year, but for now I think it's obvious why Maryland thought it was a good idea to accept that invitation...

* note: some conferences include certain media rights which others don't, so the number to compare is the sum of the two.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2013 04:27 PM by Hokie Mark.)
08-21-2013 04:26 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
Wait, how is the PAC so low? I thought the PAC was supposed to get a big windfall due to the PAC Network.
08-21-2013 04:39 PM
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Dasville Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
Just curious, everyone is focused on revenue, has anyone ever researched expenses? I'm not just talking about travel, though that is important. Does the ACC conference pay for anything that the other conferences make the school pay for?

Just wondering since a penny saved is a penny earned!
08-21-2013 05:05 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 04:39 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  Wait, how is the PAC so low? I thought the PAC was supposed to get a big windfall due to the PAC Network.

This is the network's first year, I believe. Although I would've expected their 2012-2013 figures to be much higher than what ESPN apparently is suggesting.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2013 05:10 PM by Marge Schott.)
08-21-2013 05:05 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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RE: Poor Maryland....literally
Fruitless.
08-21-2013 05:11 PM
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4x4hokies Online
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Post: #97
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 05:05 PM)Dasville Wrote:  Just curious, everyone is focused on revenue, has anyone ever researched expenses? I'm not just talking about travel, though that is important. Does the ACC conference pay for anything that the other conferences make the school pay for?

Just wondering since a penny saved is a penny earned!

Yes. Swofford mentioned it in an interview once. We pay for expenses to conference meetings that other conferences don't. We also pay for the participation in acc championships. If you gave the schools the money and then had them pay it, your payout looks bigger but the end results are the same.
08-21-2013 05:27 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 04:26 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Here's what ESPN reports for fiscal year 2012-13 (note: these are the averages of the public schools - private schools do not report):

Conf Conf payout* Media rights* Total $/team
B1G $24,945,360 $1,326,129 $26,271,488
SEC $18,862,014 $4,950,653 $23,812,667
XII $18,781,402 $2,733,992 $21,515,394
ACC $15,717,920 $3,418,415 $19,136,335
PAC $10,519,590 $1,788,052 $12,307,642

According to this, combined ACC payout was $19M and Big Ten payout was $26M. ACC was almost the same as Big XII and way ahead of Pac-12. Big Ten is just way out in front of everybody (even SEC). Of course, the ACC numbers are still from the old ESPN contract, so they WILL go up next year, but for now I think it's obvious why Maryland thought it was a good idea to accept that invitation...

* note: some conferences include certain media rights which others don't, so the number to compare is the sum of the two.

Wait, what is combined media rights? Individual school's "Tier" 3 deals like with IMG? You can't just average those for a subset of schools and talk about it the context of conference payouts. Those aren't paid out or negotiated by the conference and don't make sense to include. The ACC definitively paid out $16.9 million in 2011-12 according to publicly released numbers by FSU. According to the Orland Sentinel, the ACC revenues owed to FSU were over $19.7 million in 2012-13. FSU had expenses owed to the ACC that dropped the net revenue they received from the conference down to $18.3 million. Those expenses included Orange Bowl expenses, so the ACC revenue distributions started around $19.7 million ($12.2 of which was from the ACC media deal). So even if you start at $18.3 for FSU specifically, according to the above formula you would then add the media rights which for FSU are floated out there to be about $6 million... so in the above it appears the correct numbers would be somewhere around $24 million last year for FSU combining conference disbursement and their annual individual media contract. Next year that ACC payout will be over $20 million from the conference as has been reported over and over.

So yeah, I'm not sure how Forbes arrived at their numbers, or exactly how ESPN arrived at theirs.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2013 11:23 PM by CrazyPaco.)
08-21-2013 10:45 PM
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Lou_C Offline
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Post: #99
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
(08-21-2013 04:10 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  2012-2013
ACC - unknown
Big Ten - $25.7M (unsure of other revenue, uneven share for Nebraska?)
Big 12 - $22M for 8 returning members, $11M for 2 new members (not including third tier rights); $19.8M average for all 10
Pac 12 - unknown?
SEC - >$20.7M (not including bowl money retained by participants or income generated by third tier TV rights)


2011-2012
ACC - $16.9M per tax records (not including third tier rights)
Big 12 - not sure
Big Ten - $24.6M (uneven sharing with Nebraska brought this up?)
Pac 12 - not sure
SEC - $20.1M announced; $20.4M per tax records (not including third tier rights)


----------------------

The ACC really needs to be at the $20M range for 2012-2013. I don't believe - for a second - that the ACC topped $24M/school. And with the Big Ten already with a network and renegotiating its contract in the coming years, the SEC starting a network and Pac 12 having just started one, I don't see the ACC being able to make up ground on those 3. It seems very likely that by the time WVU and TCU are full members that they ACC may have surpassed them in per team payouts. But 4th place out of 5? 01-lauramac2

I don't see any realistic way the ACC gets higher than 4th place (if it can pass the Big 12) for the duration of these contracts.

However, I think it is possible in the next round for the ACC to be in the top three, IF and it's a big IF, ACC football becomes must-see-TV. You're talking about if FSU-Miami again becomes one of the games of the year in CFB, if 3-4 teams win national titles, and if the ACC regularly has 2-3 teams hanging around in the top 10. If the ACC can provide a viable prime-time game on a nearly weekly basis.

And of course if basketball becomes every bit of what it potentially could be. I'd like to see ACC basketball become about what SEC football is, where it basically becomes the "major leagues."

That's a big if, obviously, but it could happen. If it does, I think you combine a "must-have" product with a massive, diversified and attractive footprint.

Part of me thinks the ACC is better off not getting into bed with ESPN on the ACC Network. It might be better to give up a couple million per year per team for total and complete television and free agency in 15 years.
08-22-2013 12:10 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #100
RE: Poor Maryland....literally
I don't see the point in waiting 15 years, not that I believe that's what the ACC's doing. I have no idea. Their leadership on the Network issue has been p*ss poor.

I also don't see the ACC ever climbing higher than 4th without a Network. Just isn't going to happen. If all of those if's - that people have been talking about for years - actually do happen, will that equal the revenue a potential Network could bring in? The Big Ten's brought in over $6M each of the last two years. The SEC gets a 50/50 split of profits with ESPN on theirs. The Pac 12 owns theirs entirely? Is that right? Even if it only hits half the figures of the Big Ten, that's still ~$6M per.

Do you honestly think FSU and Miami being top 5/10 programs this last decade would raise the ACC to a current ~$26M/year? That's a huge sum. An additional $84M/year and $1.26B over the life of a 15-year contract. That's the biggest reason I call out people that think it's FSU's fault the ACC's contract is so small. Because no, it's FSU's fault that it's so large, and then you want an additional few hundred million out of FSU, too? "C'mon, man!"

-----------------------

Now, I had said I think the ACC could take the 4th spot. I know think the ACC is destined to remain in last. Even though the Big 12 will have to give full shares to WVU and TCU in the coming years, and even though I fully expect the ACC to double or triple them up in NCAAT monies, they will get more football playoff/bowl money on a per team basis. Assuming the ACC and Big 12 send the same amount of teams to the playoffs and that the other bowl payouts are identical, the Big 12 splits it 10-ways while the ACC splits it 14.

$250M/10 = $25M for the Big 12, $250M/14 = $17.9M for the ACC

That...looks terrible.
08-22-2013 02:02 PM
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