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Millions Flee Obamacare
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Hambone10 Online
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Post: #441
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
But Owl, here is the problem....

It's EASY to come up with a better plan than Obamacare.... but only by accepting and thus validating and making 'Republican' (and putting them on the books) all of the backhanded tax increase (taxes on the healthy) that Democrats put in place for Obamacare. All of these middle class insurance premium increases would become tax increases. They may be allocated differently, but they are still tax increases...

and while I agree with you on VAT as you know, it still doesn't sell completely in the Republican party, and certainly won't get any defectors from the left.

You can build a plan, but you can't get re-elected on it.
03-02-2018 05:55 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #442
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(03-02-2018 05:55 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  But Owl, here is the problem....
It's EASY to come up with a better plan than Obamacare.... but only by accepting and thus validating and making 'Republican' (and putting them on the books) all of the backhanded tax increase (taxes on the healthy) that Democrats put in place for Obamacare. All of these middle class insurance premium increases would become tax increases. They may be allocated differently, but they are still tax increases...
and while I agree with you on VAT as you know, it still doesn't sell completely in the Republican party, and certainly won't get any defectors from the left.
You can build a plan, but you can't get re-elected on it.

That's where leaders and leadership are supposed to come in. Here, we've got better ideas, so we're going to run on them, we're going to get elected, and then we're going to make them happen. Newt got the first three right in 1994, and that was probably the biggest electoral win ever for republicans. They got preoccupied with Monicagate before they got around to number four, and have pretty much lost the plot since.
03-02-2018 06:01 PM
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Hambone10 Online
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Post: #443
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(01-10-2018 10:32 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The first thing is that we are changing the concept of healthcare from 'insurance' to fundamentally purchasing healthcare plans.

As I stated in my post of a solution to the problem, I believe that is a huge misstep and one of the root pillars of the problem some have artificially created here. I can see no good reason to conflate the two (Insurance risk and what we have come to call "healthcare," but I can see very big reasons NOT to conflate them and keep them separated so people will be able to make better decisions with clearer and less convoluted data and parameters.

But that is entirely the problem. You can't separate healthcare and risk mitigation when we all seem to agree that making better choices (don't smoke, eat better, exercise, visit your PCP preemptively, don't bungee jump with rubber bands) is an absolutely necessary part of healthcare. Your health is ultimately YOUR responsibility, not the insurance company. They simply make educated guesses about how much effort you will go to to maintain your own health when many consequences are taken away.

Quote:
(01-08-2018 06:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The idea of insurance is predicated on actuarial risk management; removing the restriction of 'preexisting condition' fundamentally kills the idea of such actuarial risk management.

When you understand that important concept, *any* health system that throws the idea of 'actuarial risk management' (and by it removes the cornerstone of 'preexisting conditions'), this *requires* that everyone really must participate in the health care system in some form.


I believe I am aware of this concept and understand it, perhaps better than many others. But more importantly, I think you are overestimating the distortions that have been artificially introduced into the market over the last 60 years. I can certainly understand from your comment that apparently you, like many others, have fallen prey to the heavy propaganda and mis-marketing of those who have always sought to socialize medicine over the past 60-odd years, and thereby usurp a freedom away from American citizens that I and millions of others do not believe should be taken away from us without express and revocable consent. I and millions of others happen to disagree with your hypothesis is all.

You and I have been down this road before Good.... and no, I don't think you do understand this concept at all. Not that you don't understand what you're saying... but that you don't understand what HE's saying. I completely understand Tanq's comment, and the response seems to have nothing to do with the statements it is referring to. It doesn't matter whether you have socialized medicine or not to the individual responsibility of 'risk management'.

You are decidedly less likely to do something if the consequences are greater than you are if the consequences are less... that fact is indisputable. That is what he's talking about.

The reason 'socialized medicine' comes into play is that the only way you can take on that sort of risk is to charge larger premiums than the government will allow... so you lose money... and the only group that can lose money for long is the government. So while the debate about the value of socialized medicine is a matter of opinion and you're stating yours... Tanq is talking about the fact that 'guaranteed coverage at an artificial price' reduces personal responsibility.




Quote:If I recall correctly, BOTH sides were flip-flopping back and forth between calling it tax and a penalty depending on the day of the week and the charge being made or defended in each instance.
This comment implies that Republicans were inconsistent on the idea. That's not at all true. Republicans were against the individual mandate regardless of what you called it. Democrats didn't want to call it a tax until they had to (the court wouldn't accept Congress' power to penalize, only their power to tax)


(03-02-2018 06:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 05:55 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  But Owl, here is the problem....
It's EASY to come up with a better plan than Obamacare.... but only by accepting and thus validating and making 'Republican' (and putting them on the books) all of the backhanded tax increase (taxes on the healthy) that Democrats put in place for Obamacare. All of these middle class insurance premium increases would become tax increases. They may be allocated differently, but they are still tax increases...
and while I agree with you on VAT as you know, it still doesn't sell completely in the Republican party, and certainly won't get any defectors from the left.
You can build a plan, but you can't get re-elected on it.

That's where leaders and leadership are supposed to come in. Here, we've got better ideas, so we're going to run on them, we're going to get elected, and then we're going to make them happen. Newt got the first three right in 1994, and that was probably the biggest electoral win ever for republicans. They got preoccupied with Monicagate before they got around to number four, and have pretty much lost the plot since.

While i tend to agree with this, I am struggling with how leadership stops 'the other side' from spreading lies.

VAT makes perfect sense to you and i and millions of others, but 'the other side' (and I don't just mean the left) has effectively convinced most voters that it is the devil... and they believe it.

Newt was effective because Republicans all bought in... so did a few Democrats, especially when they got something they wanted. VAT is almost entirely a right wing (not 'republican') idea. It's a libertarian idea.
03-05-2018 06:21 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #444
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(03-05-2018 06:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 06:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 05:55 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  But Owl, here is the problem....
It's EASY to come up with a better plan than Obamacare.... but only by accepting and thus validating and making 'Republican' (and putting them on the books) all of the backhanded tax increase (taxes on the healthy) that Democrats put in place for Obamacare. All of these middle class insurance premium increases would become tax increases. They may be allocated differently, but they are still tax increases...
and while I agree with you on VAT as you know, it still doesn't sell completely in the Republican party, and certainly won't get any defectors from the left.
You can build a plan, but you can't get re-elected on it.
That's where leaders and leadership are supposed to come in. Here, we've got better ideas, so we're going to run on them, we're going to get elected, and then we're going to make them happen. Newt got the first three right in 1994, and that was probably the biggest electoral win ever for republicans. They got preoccupied with Monicagate before they got around to number four, and have pretty much lost the plot since.
While i tend to agree with this, I am struggling with how leadership stops 'the other side' from spreading lies.
VAT makes perfect sense to you and i and millions of others, but 'the other side' (and I don't just mean the left) has effectively convinced most voters that it is the devil... and they believe it.
Newt was effective because Republicans all bought in... so did a few Democrats, especially when they got something they wanted. VAT is almost entirely a right wing (not 'republican') idea. It's a libertarian idea.

But VAT is the backbone of the European "socialist" systems. It's how they manage to have broad social programs without massive redistributionist "progressive" tax systems that would impose confiscatory taxes on the "wealthy" that drive producers and investors out of the system.

How you stop the other side from spreading lies is by confronting them with the truth.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2018 06:48 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-05-2018 06:46 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #445
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(03-05-2018 06:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  How you stop the other side from spreading lies is by confronting them with the truth.


"You can't handle the truth!"
03-05-2018 09:46 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #446
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(03-05-2018 06:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  [quote='Hambone10' pid='15133938' dateline='1520292112']


How you stop the other side from spreading lies is by confronting them with the truth.

Nah. They will just say let's for the results of the witch hunt investigation, and we are supposed to sit quietly until then.
03-05-2018 11:23 PM
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Hambone10 Online
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Post: #447
RE: Millions Flee Obamacare
(03-05-2018 06:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  How you stop the other side from spreading lies is by confronting them with the truth.

You can't demonstrate what WILL happen.

I am convinced that most people, even many and perhaps most Republicans see a VAT as a tax on the poor and middle class. The prefund solves this, but I think most wouldn't trust the government to not mess with that.

I suspect 60+% of the country can't understand the concept of what would essentially be a 'reverse' payroll tax where your paycheck goes up by say 18% but so too do your expenses so you are no worse off.

I bet 80+% can't understand the idea that if you make less than the threshold and somehow manage to not spend every dime, that this means you essentially earn 18% interest on that savings.
03-06-2018 01:28 PM
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