(03-17-2014 11:51 PM)Tron1013 Wrote:  This the strongest argument I have seen against abolishing the current divisional rules. Notre Dame isn't joining as a FB member any time soon and disqualifying Clemson and Tech after their respective annual ass whippings by the Dawgs and Gamecocks is impractical to say the least. Delaying the selection of participants in the ACC championship until after the three traditionally strongest teams in the league face SEC opponents the last week of the season (plus add Louisville and Wake now that they play UK and Vandy) makes no sense. If divisions are eliminated then the two teams with the best conference records should play, and strength of conference opponents should be the initial tie breaker.

Or ever.

I will agree to make this a general objection every time this subject comes up and you guys can just assume that I am saying this in my head rather than post it every time. :)

(03-18-2014 07:53 AM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 12:42 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  I only care about NC State because Clemson is now stuck in this Godforsaken conference for the duration of this pitiful media contract because of two now retired individuals who no longer have to deal with the results. Otherwise NC State is what they have always been....a team we see on the schedule and pencil in the win because it's about as sure of a thing as you can get in athletics these days.

Man you're stuck in this conference until you pass into the great beyond.

Sounds like a love sick stalker to me.

(03-18-2014 12:28 AM)MKPitt Wrote:  One thing I love about the old guard in the ACC is the hatred between the fan bases, I just hope one day some schools in the ACC will care enough to rip Pitt apart.

I thought FSU did that for you already on Labor Day.

(03-17-2014 06:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I say stupid shlt.

(Edited for benefit our more sensitive audience members.)

(03-15-2014 01:36 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Georgetown. Navy as a football only. Take that Maryland and Jim Delany.

I said this would be the best move for the ACC a while back. Gets back everything the ACC lost in Maryland... actually a big improvement in hoops and football brand.

For all the good Navy does the ACC in "brand" it hurts the football. Navy can't compete in P5 because of the institutional restrictions on the types of student-athletes they can recruit. Adding Navy, even if it meant full membership for Notre Dame, would be detrimental to football on the field.

(03-17-2014 11:01 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 10:50 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  The idea of counting OOC games in the conference standings is one of the stupidest ideas I have seen thrown around on this board, and considering the amount of stupid ideas that get thrown around here that says a lot. No way in hell FSU, Clemson, and GT are going to be willing to handicap their chances at an ACC Championship because they play the three best SEC East teams while programs like NC State are playing an OOC slate of Lenior-Rhyne, Saint Augustine's, Southeast Guilford High School, and the C-Meck Youth Football Varsity Jets.

Not sure I get it either. How about only counting 7 ACC games for championship eligibility, and allowing those with tough OOC schedules (Clemson, FSU, Notre Dame, Tech, etc) to have an extra OOC home game in the years they have to play their out of conference rivals away? Everyone plays 7 or 8 ACC football games, but the 8th doesn't count for championship game eligibility.

There are a million possible variations, but the main point is that when divisions go, the emphasis will be on putting the highest rated or highest perceived rated teams together so that the winner goes to the playoff. The ACC title game is no longer a "title" game but a vehicle to the CFB Playoff. As a vehicle all the OOC games will somehow count for something.

I don't believe for a minute that the ACC will use anything except conference records to decide who plays in a championship game. The only reason to eliminate divisions is to have the two teams with the best conference records play, as opposed to having a 7-1 team like Clemson stay home in favor of a 5-3 Georgia Tech.

(03-17-2014 12:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 09:20 AM)omniorange Wrote:  If the ACC gets the rule changed for football championship games, better to take Cincy or UConn as #15 then to take a BE Catholic school, imho.

Cheers,
Neil

I have no problem with UConn everything but football, but I don't ever want to be in a football conference with them again. As for UC, they field competitive teams, but that's pretty much it. I don't think UC brings anything else to any ACC team not named "Louisville." I don't see the logic in adding them, barring a complete meltdown.

You shouldn't want to be in a football conference with UConn again. UConn and Syracuse faced each other nine times between 2004 and 2012 (the only head to head games between both schools in the last 50+ years) with UConn holding a solid 6-3 winning record over the Orange.

(03-18-2014 01:40 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 11:01 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 10:50 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  The idea of counting OOC games in the conference standings is one of the stupidest ideas I have seen thrown around on this board, and considering the amount of stupid ideas that get thrown around here that says a lot. No way in hell FSU, Clemson, and GT are going to be willing to handicap their chances at an ACC Championship because they play the three best SEC East teams while programs like NC State are playing an OOC slate of Lenior-Rhyne, Saint Augustine's, Southeast Guilford High School, and the C-Meck Youth Football Varsity Jets.

Not sure I get it either. How about only counting 7 ACC games for championship eligibility, and allowing those with tough OOC schedules (Clemson, FSU, Notre Dame, Tech, etc) to have an extra OOC home game in the years they have to play their out of conference rivals away? Everyone plays 7 or 8 ACC football games, but the 8th doesn't count for championship game eligibility.

There are a million possible variations, but the main point is that when divisions go, the emphasis will be on putting the highest rated or highest perceived rated teams together so that the winner goes to the playoff. The ACC title game is no longer a "title" game but a vehicle to the CFB Playoff. As a vehicle all the OOC games will somehow count for something.

I don't believe for a minute that the ACC will use anything except conference records to decide who plays in a championship game. The only reason to eliminate divisions is to have the two teams with the best conference records play, as opposed to having a 7-1 team like Clemson stay home in favor of a 5-3 Georgia Tech.

You don't have to believe it. If you don't think the rules for qualifying for the ACCCG will not take into account overall records that's up to you, but a 7 win ACC team that did well in conference but was killed out of conference is not going to show up in the game. An 8-4 team with three OOC losses and a 7-1 league record will not end up in that game over a 10-2 team with two league losses.

When the divisions are eliminated it's going to be the highest rated teams - I don't know exactly how the league office will do it, but they will do it. Here's a hypothetical FSU is 11-1 with a wtf loss to NC State. Clemson is 10-2 and is 6-2 in league games with a win over a strong SC team and a strong Georgia team, but a wtf loss to WF in addition a loss to FSU. VT is 10-2 and 6-2 with a loss to FSU and to UNC, but the best OOC win is say an unranked B-5 team.

In the past a tiebreaker would first deal with inside the common games played, that won't be the first tiebreaker anymore, it will be tied to something akin to the current ranking.

The ACC is going to put the higher ranked team into the game come hook or by crook.

Remember, the game is no longer about the ACC championship it's a stepping stone the playoff until the playoffs are expanded.

It doesn't have to make sense - it has to make dollars.

Follow the money. These are money decisions, not competition decisions, not tradition based decisions. I'm not saying I like it - I don't. However, I do know that every key ACC decision made in the last 4 or so years was made with a bow toward the money.

Personally I would like to see three divisions so that three teams can win a division and an ACC playoff with three division champs and an at large but that's me. The two division winners with the best record get a home playoff game.

That gives three football teams a year something to win - like a divisional title in the NFL. Keeps fan bases happy even if the eventual playoff winner is usually FSU and then Clemson.

(03-18-2014 11:28 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 11:51 PM)Tron1013 Wrote:  This the strongest argument I have seen against abolishing the current divisional rules. Notre Dame isn't joining as a FB member any time soon and disqualifying Clemson and Tech after their respective annual ass whippings by the Dawgs and Gamecocks is impractical to say the least. Delaying the selection of participants in the ACC championship until after the three traditionally strongest teams in the league face SEC opponents the last week of the season (plus add Louisville and Wake now that they play UK and Vandy) makes no sense. If divisions are eliminated then the two teams with the best conference records should play, and strength of conference opponents should be the initial tie breaker.

Or ever.

I will agree to make this a general objection every time this subject comes up and you guys can just assume that I am saying this in my head rather than post it every time. :)

That might make it easier for you. You've made your preference clear. :)

I think everyone recognizes that there are Notre Dame fans such as yourself who currently value "independence" above all else. If that weren't the case Notre Dame would be an 8/8 football member instead of a 5/8 football member this July. I don't think you need to come in and remind everyone of your preference for "independence" every time someone mentions the fact that ACC expansion is currently on hold until Notre Dame claims it's #15 spot.

Myself, I think all sides will work out an arrangement whereby an "independent" Notre Dame can play for an ACC title in football. Maybe everyone winds up a little more "independent?"

ETA: I assumed as I was typing this that TerryD was saying "no way" in his head as he reads it. I'd of course welcome a reply anyway. :)

(03-18-2014 06:06 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 11:28 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 11:51 PM)Tron1013 Wrote:  This the strongest argument I have seen against abolishing the current divisional rules. Notre Dame isn't joining as a FB member any time soon and disqualifying Clemson and Tech after their respective annual ass whippings by the Dawgs and Gamecocks is impractical to say the least. Delaying the selection of participants in the ACC championship until after the three traditionally strongest teams in the league face SEC opponents the last week of the season (plus add Louisville and Wake now that they play UK and Vandy) makes no sense. If divisions are eliminated then the two teams with the best conference records should play, and strength of conference opponents should be the initial tie breaker.

Or ever.

I will agree to make this a general objection every time this subject comes up and you guys can just assume that I am saying this in my head rather than post it every time. :)

That might make it easier for you. You've made your preference clear. :)

I think everyone recognizes that there are Notre Dame fans such as yourself who currently value "independence" above all else. If that weren't the case Notre Dame would be an 8/8 football member instead of a 5/8 football member this July. I don't think you need to come in and remind everyone of your preference for "independence" every time someone mentions the fact that ACC expansion is currently on hold until Notre Dame claims it's #15 spot.

Myself, I think all sides will work out an arrangement whereby an "independent" Notre Dame can play for an ACC title in football. Maybe everyone winds up a little more "independent?"

ETA: I assumed as I was typing this that TerryD was saying "no way" in his head as he reads it. I'd of course welcome a reply anyway. :)

Terry is actually fanatically pro-ND joining the ACC as a full member (including football). He's a sleeper cell of mine deep within the ND football machine. Don't tell anyone, though.

(03-18-2014 06:25 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 06:06 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 11:28 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 11:51 PM)Tron1013 Wrote:  This the strongest argument I have seen against abolishing the current divisional rules. Notre Dame isn't joining as a FB member any time soon and disqualifying Clemson and Tech after their respective annual ass whippings by the Dawgs and Gamecocks is impractical to say the least. Delaying the selection of participants in the ACC championship until after the three traditionally strongest teams in the league face SEC opponents the last week of the season (plus add Louisville and Wake now that they play UK and Vandy) makes no sense. If divisions are eliminated then the two teams with the best conference records should play, and strength of conference opponents should be the initial tie breaker.

Or ever.

I will agree to make this a general objection every time this subject comes up and you guys can just assume that I am saying this in my head rather than post it every time. :)

That might make it easier for you. You've made your preference clear. :)

I think everyone recognizes that there are Notre Dame fans such as yourself who currently value "independence" above all else. If that weren't the case Notre Dame would be an 8/8 football member instead of a 5/8 football member this July. I don't think you need to come in and remind everyone of your preference for "independence" every time someone mentions the fact that ACC expansion is currently on hold until Notre Dame claims it's #15 spot.

Myself, I think all sides will work out an arrangement whereby an "independent" Notre Dame can play for an ACC title in football. Maybe everyone winds up a little more "independent?"

ETA: I assumed as I was typing this that TerryD was saying "no way" in his head as he reads it. I'd of course welcome a reply anyway. :)

Terry is actually fanatically pro-ND joining the ACC as a full member (including football). He's a sleeper cell of mine deep within the ND football machine. Don't tell anyone, though.

I won't tell a soul.

(03-18-2014 12:33 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 12:28 AM)MKPitt Wrote:  One thing I love about the old guard in the ACC is the hatred between the fan bases, I just hope one day some schools in the ACC will care enough to rip Pitt apart.

I thought FSU did that for you already on Labor Day.

#LowBlow

(03-18-2014 12:42 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(03-17-2014 06:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I eat my own shlt.

Lol, Opossum, you were right. I was thinking that.

It isn't some ND fans who favor independence, it is almost all of them.

ND fans are simply not interested in football conferences or conference titles, at all.

You will rarely find an ND fan on a conference realignment board or even a conference board.

They simply have no interest in CR, the conference they are in or conferences in general.

A proposal on an ND board about possible methods for the Irish to compete for ACC football titles would be met with "no way", "not interested" or yawns.

I am one of the few ND fans who infest these boards. :)

Sorry about that.

Carry on.




Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(03-18-2014 10:15 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Lol, you were right.

It isn't some ND fans who favor independence, it is almost all of them.

ND fans are simply not interested in conferences or conference titles.

You will rarely find an ND fan on a conference realignment board

or even a conference board.

They simply have no interest in CR, the conference they are in or conferences on general.

A proposal on an ND board about possible methods for the Irish to compete for ACC football titles would be met with "no way", "not interested" or yawns.

I am one of the few ND fans who infest these boards. :)

Sorry about that.

Carry on.




Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

You literally could not make it more clear that you are against Notre Dame joining the ACC for the remaining 3/8's of football. I think I get it now -- TerryD does not want Notre Dame to play a full ACC schedule, for some reason. Is that right?

(03-18-2014 10:25 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 10:15 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Lol, you were right.

It isn't some ND fans who favor independence, it is almost all of them.

ND fans are simply not interested in conferences or conference titles.

You will rarely find an ND fan on a conference realignment board

or even a conference board.

They simply have no interest in CR, the conference they are in or conferences on general.

A proposal on an ND board about possible methods for the Irish to compete for ACC football titles would be met with "no way", "not interested" or yawns.

I am one of the few ND fans who infest these boards. :)

Sorry about that.

Carry on.




Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

You literally could not make it more clear that you are against Notre Dame joining the ACC for the remaining 3/8's of football. I think I get it now -- TerryD does not want Notre Dame to play a full ACC schedule, for some reason. Is that right?

Correct, but who gives a crap about my opinion?

Didn't you say you would welcome a reply?

You miss the bigger picture. Almost no ND alumni or fan wants to increase the 5 games.

Most don't like the ACC deal as it currently exists.

They think ND gave up too much with 5 games instead of 3.

The ACC will face a difficult or almost impossible task convincing ND to go for any such proposal unless a conference champ only playoff happens.

That is why (again in my opinion and in talking to every ND fan I know) that these types of proposals would be met with great negativity by ND fans, always.

Have you seen many ND fans on this board, the conference realignment board, or any ACC team board? Not very many care about CR or the ACC or conferences in general.

They usually stay on their own boards arguing with each other over issues like piped in music, Jumbotrons and Field Turf. They are an insular bunch that just really wants to be left alone and not bothered with all this conference stuff.

That last resort {conference champs only)is the only likely way to get ND to budge on this ( in my opinion).

(03-18-2014 10:30 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 10:25 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 10:15 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Lol, you were right.

It isn't some ND fans who favor independence, it is almost all of them.

ND fans are simply not interested in conferences or conference titles.

You will rarely find an ND fan on a conference realignment board

or even a conference board.

They simply have no interest in CR, the conference they are in or conferences on general.

A proposal on an ND board about possible methods for the Irish to compete for ACC football titles would be met with "no way", "not interested" or yawns.

I am one of the few ND fans who infest these boards. :)

Sorry about that.

Carry on.




Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

You literally could not make it more clear that you are against Notre Dame joining the ACC for the remaining 3/8's of football. I think I get it now -- TerryD does not want Notre Dame to play a full ACC schedule, for some reason. Is that right?

Correct, but who gives a crap about my opinion.

Didn't you say you would welcome a reply?

You miss the bigger picture. Almost no ND alumni or fan wants to increase the 5 games.

Most don't like the ACC deal as it currently exists.

They think ND gave up too much with 5 games instead of 3.

How did I suggest that your reply was unwelcome? I pointed out that you fall within the segment of Notre Dame fans who think that playing more than 5/8ths of an ACC football schedule would somehow be a bad thing. I understand that this mindset exists, but please don't expect anyone who does not share it to sympathize with it or understand it. It is incomprehensible to the rest of us.

At the end of the day, Notre Dame will either play more than 5 football games against ACC teams every year or it won't. If they play more, both sides will benefit. I think that will happen, you don't. Time will tell.

(03-18-2014 10:15 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Lol, Opossum, you were right. I was thinking that.

It isn't some ND fans who favor independence, it is almost all of them.

ND fans are simply not interested in football conferences or conference titles, at all.

You will rarely find an ND fan on a conference realignment board or even a conference board.

They simply have no interest in CR, the conference they are in or conferences in general.

A proposal on an ND board about possible methods for the Irish to compete for ACC football titles would be met with "no way", "not interested" or yawns.

I am one of the few ND fans who infest these boards. :)

Sorry about that.

Carry on.




Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

*winks and touches nose*

(03-18-2014 11:09 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 10:30 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 10:25 PM)opossum Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 10:15 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Lol, you were right.

It isn't some ND fans who favor independence, it is almost all of them.

ND fans are simply not interested in conferences or conference titles.

You will rarely find an ND fan on a conference realignment board

or even a conference board.

They simply have no interest in CR, the conference they are in or conferences on general.

A proposal on an ND board about possible methods for the Irish to compete for ACC football titles would be met with "no way", "not interested" or yawns.

I am one of the few ND fans who infest these boards. :)

Sorry about that.

Carry on.




Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

You literally could not make it more clear that you are against Notre Dame joining the ACC for the remaining 3/8's of football. I think I get it now -- TerryD does not want Notre Dame to play a full ACC schedule, for some reason. Is that right?

Correct, but who gives a crap about my opinion.

Didn't you say you would welcome a reply?

You miss the bigger picture. Almost no ND alumni or fan wants to increase the 5 games.

Most don't like the ACC deal as it currently exists.

They think ND gave up too much with 5 games instead of 3.

How did I suggest that your reply was unwelcome? I pointed out that you fall within the segment of Notre Dame fans who think that playing more than 5/8ths of an ACC football schedule would somehow be a bad thing. I understand that this mindset exists, but please don't expect anyone who does not share it to sympathize with it or understand it. It is incomprehensible to the rest of us.

At the end of the day, Notre Dame will either play more than 5 football games against ACC teams every year or it won't. If they play more, both sides will benefit. I think that will happen, you don't. Time will tell.

There is no "segment". It is almost a universal opinion/stance/belief/dogma on the part of ND people.

That seems to be the part you don't get. My best guess is that over ninety percent or more of ND alumni and fans strongly, strongly, strongly feel this way.

Nobody is asking anyone to understand or sympathize with anything.

Most of Europe thinks that Americans are crazy with their opinions/beliefs/stance about guns, school prayer, single payer universal health insurance and abortion. (Not to make it political, just pointing out examples).

Europeans generally find such American beliefs to be incomprehensible to them.

I don't see any Americans asking Europeans to understand or sympathize with those beliefs.

Football independence (no conference affiliation for ND football) is akin to such strongly held religious, political or moral beliefs. It is a bedrock, universal truth for ND alumni and fans.

ND football has never been in a conference during its 127 years of existence. Never. Most ND fans think a change in that regard signals the end of what makes ND football, well, ND football. They are violently against it.

Many think that ND "gave away the farm" by agreeing to five ACC games per year.

They don't think that football conference membership or winning football conference titles is worth much of anything.

Believe it or not, I like the current ACC/ND arrangement and am a "moderate" when it comes to ND fan opinion on that.

You should talk to some of the ND "zealots". Wow. They think that ND should be completely independent in football and don't care what that means for basketball, baseball, lacrosse, soccer, etc..

They think that any damage to those programs is no big deal and worth the price to keep ND football completely independent. Worthy collateral damage, in their minds.

(Heck, many ND fans don't even care about basketball or baseball, for instance. They are football only people).

They don't even care if that means no minor bowl bids for ND football. They are "National champs/BCS bowls or Bust" (now "Playoffs or bust") folks.

ND boosters (big money donors) and alumni would almost riot if ND proposed such a thing (full conference membership).

ND fans fight each other all the time about whether Brian Kelly is a lousy coach and whether piped in music, Jumbotrons and Field Turf should ever be allowed at Notre Dame Stadium.

One thing that unites them, though, is any suggestion that ND give up independence and fully join any conference, ever. That, and the fact that they all hate Michigan and the Big Ten.

Go to any ND board and ask them if you don't believe me. They won't come here, so you would have to go there.