(06-11-2014 01:33 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  NEW Wolkenator tweets >>>

Dan Wolken @DanWolken · 30s
NCAA president Mark Emmert confident 'Division 4' won't be necessary http://usat.ly/1pHzKqq via @USATODAY

Dan Wolk[/i]en @DanWolken · 1m
Louisiana-Monroe AD Brian Wickstrom on the meeting with Emmert: "I was a little nervous going in, but I'm really encouraged."

Wait a minute - how much clout does the NCAA (Mark Emmert) have in this? It seems to me the P5 are calling most of the shots now.

Emmert is an empty suit. Emptier than Brand was.

(06-11-2014 01:37 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:22 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:13 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:02 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  If the AAC lawyers up initiates lawsuits if not initially included, they'll be included in this new organization...gauranteed. Take that to the bank. the P5 can't legally bar the AAC if the AAC is willing and able to abide by whatever rules are required for admission.

Really? Why can't they?

Because it would be an illegal, that's why. Can they bar a D3 team from becoming a D2 school. No...provided they meet all the criteria, they can move up. Life is full of this. If someone is willing/able to meet and does meet the criteria for any organization, they can't be barred from joining for no apparent reason. I could give hundreds of examples of this.

What's "illegal" about it? If I don't want you at my party you don't get an invite. I don't care if you are wearing the required shirt and shoes.

This isn't a party. It's an organization which must abide by federal laws. Huge difference.

(06-11-2014 01:45 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:37 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:22 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:13 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:02 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  If the AAC lawyers up initiates lawsuits if not initially included, they'll be included in this new organization...gauranteed. Take that to the bank. the P5 can't legally bar the AAC if the AAC is willing and able to abide by whatever rules are required for admission.

Really? Why can't they?

Because it would be an illegal, that's why. Can they bar a D3 team from becoming a D2 school. No...provided they meet all the criteria, they can move up. Life is full of this. If someone is willing/able to meet and does meet the criteria for any organization, they can't be barred from joining for no apparent reason. I could give hundreds of examples of this.

What's "illegal" about it? If I don't want you at my party you don't get an invite. I don't care if you are wearing the required shirt and shoes.

This isn't a party. It's an organization which must abide by federal laws. Huge difference.

OK - what Federal laws are broken?

(06-11-2014 01:39 PM)bearcatfan Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:33 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  NEW Wolkenator tweets >>>

Dan Wolken @DanWolken · 30s
NCAA president Mark Emmert confident 'Division 4' won't be necessary http://usat.ly/1pHzKqq via @USATODAY

Dan Wolk[/i]en @DanWolken · 1m
Louisiana-Monroe AD Brian Wickstrom on the meeting with Emmert: "I was a little nervous going in, but I'm really encouraged."

Wait a minute - how much clout does the NCAA (Mark Emmert) have in this? It seems to me the P5 are calling most of the shots now.

He speaks for the P5. He just didn't realize the G5 members had a backbone until recently. The P5 overreached and Emmert and his handlers (the P5) got nervous. The G5 members need to call the bluff and force the P5's hand. The NCAA would then have to sponsor an actual playoff for all the conferences; or in the alternative the NCAA would have to sponsor a playoff for the schools that remain under the NCAA umbrella which would call into question the legitimacy of any playoff that the P5 would try to run separate and apart from the NCAA.

(06-11-2014 12:35 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 12:21 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  Thanks. It sounds like there maybe some push back to the P5 autonomy request. I hope that the G5 makes the P5 actually break away.

The P5 doesn't need the G5 to make money in football and so they don't need to play them. Honestly, I think if the G5 pushes this issue we could see the P5 break away. It's that important o them. We (the G5) need the P5 much more than they will ever need us IMO--

I don't think so. The NCAA does but not the g5. They lose their tax breaks and will have increased costs that come along with employing folks. The networks are tapped out. The networks lose contact. I am not going to watch tx football games unless I am in their conf or playing them. That's the beauty of college football and it's passion as there is a connection to your school. They will lose viewers in the long run. The tv deals are so meager at this point for the g5 that they couldn't break even if they left.


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(06-11-2014 01:37 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:35 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:22 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:13 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:02 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  If the AAC lawyers up initiates lawsuits if not initially included, they'll be included in this new organization...gauranteed. Take that to the bank. the P5 can't legally bar the AAC if the AAC is willing and able to abide by whatever rules are required for admission.

Really? Why can't they?

Because it would be an illegal, that's why. Can they bar a D3 team from becoming a D2 school. No...provided they meet all the criteria, they can move up. Life is full of this. If someone is willing/able to meet and does meet the criteria for any organization, they can't be barred from joining for no apparent reason. I could give hundreds of examples of this.

So they just create a rule that you're required to have a media deal worth $10 million per team.

They can...and it would likely be struck down as an anti-competitive clause. If they don't like lawsuits, a split will almost certainly draw a number of HUGE lawsuits. A spit would like destroy the G5 and leave them with FCS levels of income. That's a lot of potential liability.

There is a fantasy amongst P5 fans that their schools can just do whatever they want and that they are too powerful for lawyers, politicians, and Federal judges to touch.

On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Question for you: Why should the G5 cave to the P5? Why not just make the P5 leave the NCAA altogether? That way the G5 could force the NCAA to sponsor a real playoff? And in turn wouldn't that force the P5 to call their playoff something other than the NCAA Playoff?

That is the legitimacy that the P5 is seeking, all the while trying to exclude other NCAA members. The P5 would come back if the left, because they wouldn't have the legitimacy that they wanted. This whole thing is a big bluff, but the G5 needs to call the P5 on it; because it doesn't seem fair that a bunch of public universities in different States can band together to ban a bunch of other public universities from playing for a national championship.

(06-11-2014 02:04 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Question for you: Why should the G5 cave to the P5? Why not just make the P5 leave the NCAA altogether? That way the G5 could force the NCAA to sponsor a real playoff? And in turn wouldn't that force the P5 to call their playoff something other than the NCAA Playoff?

That is the legitimacy that the P5 is seeking, all the while trying to exclude other NCAA members. The P5 would come back if the left, because they wouldn't have the legitimacy that they wanted. This whole thing is a big bluff, but the G5 needs to call the P5 on it; because it doesn't seem fair that a bunch of public universities in different States can band together to ban a bunch of other public universities from playing for a national championship.

All that has been addressed above IMO --- the P5 doesn't need the G5. The G5 will lose money, TV, exposure if P5s leave their schedules. As to the rest -- I really don't see why it's so hard to understand that if Division 4 is created THAT will be the real National Championship Game --- so it really doesn't matter how the G5 structures it's 'play-off' -it'll be the G5 Play offs - not the National Championship Game.

(06-11-2014 01:35 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  So they just create a rule that you're required to have a media deal worth $10 million per team.

A rule like that would give rise to even more lawsuits. That would be like a rule saying you must have at least $x in sales to be allowed to operate as a business.

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Courts have ruled that "the market" is the one the big schools have created and it goes where they go and that there is no replacement for it.

What happens when you collude and form a cartel to deliberately eject smaller players from a market and erect barriers to their re-entry into that market?

The assumption that the lawyers, or AG's, will remain asleep...or cower in awe of the power of the P5....is flawed.

Damages would be IMMENSE if somehow the plaintiffs prevailed in such cases.

(06-11-2014 02:13 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 02:04 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Question for you: Why should the G5 cave to the P5? Why not just make the P5 leave the NCAA altogether? That way the G5 could force the NCAA to sponsor a real playoff? And in turn wouldn't that force the P5 to call their playoff something other than the NCAA Playoff?

That is the legitimacy that the P5 is seeking, all the while trying to exclude other NCAA members. The P5 would come back if the left, because they wouldn't have the legitimacy that they wanted. This whole thing is a big bluff, but the G5 needs to call the P5 on it; because it doesn't seem fair that a bunch of public universities in different States can band together to ban a bunch of other public universities from playing for a national championship.

All that has been addressed above IMO --- the P5 doesn't need the G5. The G5 will lose money, TV, exposure if P5s leave their schedules. As to the rest -- I really don't see why it's so hard to understand that if Division 4 is created THAT will be the real National Championship Game --- so it really doesn't matter how the G5 structures it's 'play-off' -it'll be the G5 Play offs - not the National Championship Game.

The P5 are not going to create a D4. This whole process was never about D4. This process was about trying to control who will get the right to play for national championships in football. The P5 had to shift the competitive balance completely in their favor to get the results that they want. They are agreeing to pay players so that they can buy the kids that they want, because they know that many G5 schools will not be able to come up with that type of coin. And just in case the P5 schools missed on some players who ended up going to G5 schools, then P5 schools wanted kids to have the rights to be able to transfer without penalty (having to sit out a year) to a P5 school of their choosing. If that wasn't enough the P5 members slipped a SOS component into the mix in the playoff system and then they colluded to only play each other just to make sure that G5 schools can't reach the holy grail. So basically the P5 put on suspenders with their belt to keep up their pants up and to make sure that G5 schools were being held down.

IMO the G5 should try to force the P5 leave the NCAA altogether, so that the G5 can set up a legitimate playoff system within the NCAA. The G5 already has no money and no exposure; but the one thing that the G5 would have is the high ground and the right to call their championship game the "NCAA Championship" which is what the P5 desperately needs for legitimacy. That is why the P5 is not going to leave, but they are going to make life Hell for G5 members; especially AAC schools, because AAC schools will cause P5 schools the most problems.

(06-11-2014 02:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Courts have ruled that "the market" is the one the big schools have created and it goes where they go and that there is no replacement for it.

What happens when you collude and form a cartel to deliberately eject smaller players from a market and erect barriers to their re-entry into that market?

The assumption that the lawyers, or AG's, will remain asleep...or cower in awe of the power of the P5....is flawed.

Damages would be IMMENSE if somehow the plaintiffs prevailed in such cases.

What are the damages caused by the P5 schools? That we (the G5) can't hang out with them and ride their money coattails? Look --- I have a product I want to sell. I'm not saying or doing anything to keep you from selling your product. Right? And when I sell my product I've decided that certain standards should be followed that help me continue to sell that product. I'm not saying you can't follow those same standards --- if you choose. I'm not barring or hindering your business in any way. I'm just saying that I'm starting a group that has common interests and will bind itself to follow certain standards. Just because you've (the G5) now lost the benefits of your association with me (the P5) doesn't mean I've done anything illegal. The P5 hasn't breached any duty to the G5 that I see --

(06-11-2014 02:31 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 02:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Courts have ruled that "the market" is the one the big schools have created and it goes where they go and that there is no replacement for it.

What happens when you collude and form a cartel to deliberately eject smaller players from a market and erect barriers to their re-entry into that market?

The assumption that the lawyers, or AG's, will remain asleep...or cower in awe of the power of the P5....is flawed.

Damages would be IMMENSE if somehow the plaintiffs prevailed in such cases.

What are the damages caused by the P5 schools? That we (the G5) can't hang out with them and ride their money coattails? Look --- I have a product I want to sell. I'm not saying or doing anything to keep you from selling your product. Right? And when I sell my product I've decided that certain standards should be followed that help me continue to sell that product. I'm not saying you can't follow those same standards --- if you choose. I'm not barring or hindering your business in any way. I'm just saying that I'm starting a group that has common interests and will bind itself to follow certain standards. Just because you've (the G5) now lost the benefits of your association with me (the P5) doesn't mean I've done anything illegal. The P5 hasn't breached any duty to the G5 that I see --

Your argument was already made once and the court said that the actual market for college football is where the majors are...and that there is no alternative to it.

So the damages are...being excluded from that market through the collusion of the major players in that market.

Now a judge might rule that today there is a viable alternative. But that is putting a lot of money on the line hoping a judge overthrows a prior ruling. Not something the P5 will jump into lightly.

If the "so called P5" ever tried a d4 AND exclude those who wanted/were able to meet criteria for joining, there would be so many lawsuits, they would need a million lawyers to navigate them all.

FACT: the AAC will be at the highest level of competition there is, whether that is FBS or a D4.

Quote:Dan Wolken @DanWolken
Rose: Our conference presidents will not go back to students to fund COA to give athletes a better package on the backs of paying students

And there it is...the most forgotten party to all of this.

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

It all depends on what the particulars are.

If they create an illegal tier, as was originally proposed, then they can be sued. You can't create an arbitrary tier (as they originally tried to do when they relegated the G5 to different rules).

(06-11-2014 01:08 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 12:52 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 12:35 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 12:21 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  Thanks. It sounds like there maybe some push back to the P5 autonomy request. I hope that the G5 makes the P5 actually break away.

The P5 doesn't need the G5 to make money in football and so they don't need to play them. Honestly, I think if the G5 pushes this issue we could see the P5 break away. It's that important o them. We (the G5) need the P5 much more than they will ever need us IMO--

Not really. Both need each other equally, for a variety of reasons. But even if the so called "p5" broke away, I feel the AAC could easily sue for inclusion, if necessary. How could the so called P5 legally bar entry into whatever organization it morphs into, if the AAC has the desire and resources to abide by whatever rules are needed for entry.

Please. Ask yourself how P5 fan interest suffer if the P5s broke away? How would income - TV and otherwise? I'm sure P5 fans would be just fine with playing their conference games and three or four OOC games against other P5 teams. I doubt the same could be said for the G5 schools or their fans. Or the money and TV exposure that G5s will miss out on when all P5 games go totally off their schedules. --- So, with the union and player rights issues out there I seriously doubt the G5 schools have much, if any, leverage on the autonomy issue. It's going to happen and it's going to happen in a way that satisfies the P5 - or I really think they'll split to Division 4. And I think most of the G5 ADs / commissioners know it --

You're talking about football though. other sports would suffer. Basketball would suffer, as would minor sports like Soccer, Lacrosse or Ice Hockey. In fact, only 6 schools in the P5 even play ice hockey.

(06-11-2014 02:31 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 02:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(06-11-2014 01:58 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  On what basis do you win a lawsuit *IF* Division 4 is created? What duty does the Division 4 members owe the rest of us that has been breached?

Courts have ruled that "the market" is the one the big schools have created and it goes where they go and that there is no replacement for it.

What happens when you collude and form a cartel to deliberately eject smaller players from a market and erect barriers to their re-entry into that market?

The assumption that the lawyers, or AG's, will remain asleep...or cower in awe of the power of the P5....is flawed.

Damages would be IMMENSE if somehow the plaintiffs prevailed in such cases.

What are the damages caused by the P5 schools? That we (the G5) can't hang out with them and ride their money coattails? Look --- I have a product I want to sell. I'm not saying or doing anything to keep you from selling your product. Right? And when I sell my product I've decided that certain standards should be followed that help me continue to sell that product. I'm not saying you can't follow those same standards --- if you choose. I'm not barring or hindering your business in any way. I'm just saying that I'm starting a group that has common interests and will bind itself to follow certain standards. Just because you've (the G5) now lost the benefits of your association with me (the P5) doesn't mean I've done anything illegal. The P5 hasn't breached any duty to the G5 that I see --

You mean like a private club? And we all know private clubs cant be sued over membership entry standards---oh, wait..... Look, it basically creating a cartel with artificial barriers to entry. Companies that engage in such practices are sued all the time.