http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_2595...-athletics

The ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC will share more than $1.5 billion in combined media revenue from 2013 among their 65 schools. Within the past few weeks, representatives from each -- including Big Ten chancellors -- have publicly stated their intention to ask the NCAA to grant them special autonomy from the rest of membership so they can spend money on student-athlete welfare now prohibited by the NCAA.

"It's sheer selfishness on the part of the FBS, and it has been institutional by a no-guts NCAA membership that gave up its one-school, one-vote rule because of blackmail," said Lopiano, president of consultant group Sports Management Resources and a sports management teacher at Southern Connecticut State University.

The "blackmail" to which Lopiano refers is a threat, recently vocalized by SEC Commissioner Mike Slive, to create a new division within the NCAA or leave the organization. That, too, is disingenuous, Lopiano said, because the Big Five conferences cannot afford to lose the tax benefits they're afforded as federally recognized nonprofit institutions.

The move toward autonomy, Lopiano believes, is simply a way to protect and enhance the status quo for big-time football schools, and she is not alone in that belief.

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As for the threat of leaving the NCAA, it's a ruse, Lopiano said.

"What's bad is that the other thousand NCAA institutions don't recognize that it's a nonexistent threat," she said. "Big-time schools can't leave; Congress would take away tax preferences and remove federal assistance. If they leave, now they're not a nonprofit. They're hiding behind the skirts of the rest of the NCAA institutions."

what article did you link this from?

If the P5 stayed in the NCAA, in a new division, I doubt very seriously if the government would take away the tax exempt status. If the P5 break away entirely.... the government probably would.

Hell, I doubt theyd even do that. Its not like the NCAA is the only non-profit allowed to exist and the P5 represents way too much political power within the biggest states for congress to not give whatever new organization they form the same benefits.

The big mistake the small schools make is assuming the NCAA is the US Department of College Sports.

It is not.

I'm not saying they "can't" form a new Divison within the existing NCAA structure, but someone please help me understand...

They threaten if they don't get the votes to become autonomous, but wouldn't they need the votes from the rest of the NCAA institutions to form another Division as well? I just don't get it. What am I missing here? How can they really do anything except leave the NCAA altogether if the votes aren't there?

If they can indeed form the so called "Division 4" without anyone stopping them, then why the hell have they not done so before now?

(06-13-2014 05:45 PM)TitanTopper Wrote:  I'm not saying they "can't" form a new Divison within the existing NCAA structure, but someone please help me understand...

They threaten if they don't get the votes to become autonomous, but wouldn't they need the votes from the rest of the NCAA institutions to form another Division as well? I just don't get it. What am I missing here? How can they really do anything except leave the NCAA altogether if the votes aren't there?

If they can indeed form the so called "Division 4" without anyone stopping them, then why the hell have they not done so before now?

You have a point. I would think they'd need the votes from the rest of Div 1 to create a new division. Also, if it's an NCAA division, how do you exclude the AAC? Any standards and practices they chose to make requirement of Div 4 the AAC would agree to and meet. So, how do you keep the AAC from moving up to div 4 if they want to join?

As to why they haven't done it before, it hasn't been necessary before. They've never been attacked on so many fronts by lawsuits and needed to make changes that the rest of the NCAA won't allow them. Besides in the past it was nebulous who was worthy. The first generation BE football was considered inside the circle. When they started getting picked apart it was a fine line between worthy and non-worthy. Now it seems pretty concrete who's in and who's out. At least until 2025.

Someone posted an analysis of the tax exempt status. Based on that it looks pretty difficult to tax college football even if it makes a profit. I don't think they have to worry about that.

I think their big worry is being treated as a monopoly and having their actions judged as a monopoly power.

That would be much more likely if they separated.

(06-13-2014 05:54 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 05:45 PM)TitanTopper Wrote:  I'm not saying they "can't" form a new Divison within the existing NCAA structure, but someone please help me understand...

They threaten if they don't get the votes to become autonomous, but wouldn't they need the votes from the rest of the NCAA institutions to form another Division as well? I just don't get it. What am I missing here? How can they really do anything except leave the NCAA altogether if the votes aren't there?

If they can indeed form the so called "Division 4" without anyone stopping them, then why the hell have they not done so before now?

You have a point. I would think they'd need the votes from the rest of Div 1 to create a new division. Also, if it's an NCAA division, how do you exclude the AAC? Any standards and practices they chose to make requirement of Div 4 the AAC would agree to and meet. So, how do you keep the AAC from moving up to div 4 if they want to join?

As to why they haven't done it before, it hasn't been necessary before. They've never been attacked on so many fronts by lawsuits and needed to make changes that the rest of the NCAA won't allow them. Besides in the past it was nebulous who was worthy. The first generation BE football was considered inside the circle. When they started getting picked apart it was a fine line between worthy and non-worthy. Now it seems pretty concrete who's in and who's out. At least until 2025.

Something similar happened when they made D1-A and D1-AA. The NCAA tried to force the MAC down, but the MAC challenged and after a year in limbo were allowed to remain D1-A.

(06-13-2014 07:42 PM)mufanatehc Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 05:54 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 05:45 PM)TitanTopper Wrote:  I'm not saying they "can't" form a new Divison within the existing NCAA structure, but someone please help me understand...

They threaten if they don't get the votes to become autonomous, but wouldn't they need the votes from the rest of the NCAA institutions to form another Division as well? I just don't get it. What am I missing here? How can they really do anything except leave the NCAA altogether if the votes aren't there?

If they can indeed form the so called "Division 4" without anyone stopping them, then why the hell have they not done so before now?

You have a point. I would think they'd need the votes from the rest of Div 1 to create a new division. Also, if it's an NCAA division, how do you exclude the AAC? Any standards and practices they chose to make requirement of Div 4 the AAC would agree to and meet. So, how do you keep the AAC from moving up to div 4 if they want to join?

As to why they haven't done it before, it hasn't been necessary before. They've never been attacked on so many fronts by lawsuits and needed to make changes that the rest of the NCAA won't allow them. Besides in the past it was nebulous who was worthy. The first generation BE football was considered inside the circle. When they started getting picked apart it was a fine line between worthy and non-worthy. Now it seems pretty concrete who's in and who's out. At least until 2025.

Something similar happened when they made D1-A and D1-AA. The NCAA tried to force the MAC down, but the MAC challenged and after a year in limbo were allowed to remain D1-A.

A lot more would sue this time.

(06-13-2014 05:24 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  If the P5 stayed in the NCAA, in a new division, I doubt very seriously if the government would take away the tax exempt status. If the P5 break away entirely.... the government probably would.

Correct, which means NEITHER will happen. They can NOT form Division 4 without the rest of the NCAA allowing them to by vote. And if they can NOT form Division 4 then they also can NOT breakaway from the NCAA which is their only other option because of the tax exempt status they'd take a 30% revenue haircut. Thus why I've been saying for weeks that Delaney and Slive are helpless idiots who are threatening and pouting to the media desperately.

The P5 could join as new division of the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA), who would be glad to have them. Doing this would keep thee P5 tax exempt. So sue, membership in the NCAA is voluntary!

You also have to understand Donna Lopiano. She was women's AD at Texas, which at the time had the best women's athletic department in the country. She took another job, leaving on her terms, and promptly helped sue UT under Title IX for not adequately funding women's athletics.

So she is trying to protect women's programs at 1000 universities. That's her passion. She realizes those 65 support the rest of Division I and significantly help II and III.

To form a new division, the entire membership of the NCAA must approve. All three divisions.

To form a new subdivision within D1, the entire D1 membership would have to approve.

I don't think either has a realistic chance of happening. Considering that there's some hesitation (maybe) in giving the P5 power over SOME of their own rules, I really don't think there's any support (or at least enough) to allow them the authority to make ALL their own rules in a new division or subdivision.

If the P5 want their own division, they'll have to leave the NCAA. There are a ton of logistics, headaches, and time requirements for doing that, and I don't think the P5 is wlling to go through with all of that. They really already have the supermajority of (and are about to have more of) the revenue and the power in college athletics. Plus, they've already created the best strawman for unpopular actions by themselves. So why leave, and risk turning that bright spotlight of public opinion squarely on them? They won't. THAT'S why it's an empty threat.

Now, as tax exempt institutions of higher learning forming a sports league, I highly doubt they'll lose any tax exempt status if they left and formed their own association. The NFL is tax exempt, but the individual teams are not, but they are individual for-profit entities. Any new cartel the P5 could set up would be comprised of tax-exempt institutions of higher learning, and thus would be almost certainly entirely tax-exempt as well.

(06-13-2014 05:34 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Hell, I doubt theyd even do that. Its not like the NCAA is the only non-profit allowed to exist and the P5 represents way too much political power within the biggest states for congress to not give whatever new organization they form the same benefits.

The big mistake the small schools make is assuming the NCAA is the US Department of College Sports.

It is not.

This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking upon reading this.

(06-13-2014 08:09 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  To form a new division, the entire membership of the NCAA must approve. All three divisions.

To form a new subdivision within D1, the entire D1 membership would have to approve.

I don't think either has a realistic chance of happening. Considering that there's some hesitation (maybe) in giving the P5 power over SOME of their own rules, I really don't think there's any support (or at least enough) to allow them the authority to make ALL their own rules in a new division or subdivision.

If the P5 want their own division, they'll have to leave the NCAA. There are a ton of logistics, headaches, and time requirements for doing that, and I don't think the P5 is wlling to go through with all of that. They really already have the supermajority of (and are about to have more of) the revenue and the power in college athletics. Plus, they've already created the best strawman for unpopular actions by themselves. So why leave, and risk turning that bright spotlight of public opinion squarely on them? They won't. THAT'S why it's an empty threat.

Now, as tax exempt institutions of higher learning forming a sports league, I highly doubt they'll lose any tax exempt status if they left and formed their own association. The NFL is tax exempt, but the individual teams are not, but they are individual for-profit entities. Any new cartel the P5 could set up would be comprised of tax-exempt institutions of higher learning, and thus would be almost certainly entirely tax-exempt as well.

I was of the opinion they would lose tax-exempt status. After reading all of the arguments and linked studies on these threads it appears to me that the chances are almost nil of that happening. No matter how much profit they make, no matter what they do, they are going to keep tax-exempt status.

The real trouble is the courts. If the P5 break away then they are no longer have the fig leaf of the NCAA and its divisional structure. They would clearly be a separate competitor in the market for college football....and pretty clearly a monopoly power in that market. Every action they would take could face stricter scrutiny of whether it was anti-competitive, restricted trade, created barriers to entry and all the other things monopoly powers have to be careful of.

A lot of P5 fans have this sense that the P5 is invulnerable. Yet sometimes the MAC sues and gets reinstated into Division I-A. Sometimes Microsoft gets forced to let competing browsers into their operating system. Sometimes the all-powerful Ma Bell gets busted into pieces.

I personally don't think the P5 want any part whatsoever of a world where the courts are regularly scrutinizing their actions to make sure they aren't anti-competitive.

They have a fantastic setup right now. They have immense influence over the entire college football universe. They essentially have a two-tier recruiting setup that gives them huge competitive advantages. They reap a vast majority of the rewards. They have a system where almost nobody can challenge them, even a multi-year run by Boise made no tangible difference to the status quo. The hubris involved in breaking away from all that would be epic. I find it hard to believe they are that stupid. But based on some fan reactions, maybe so.

Another thing to consider in the break away for the P5 besides football is basketball. Just think how much money each P5 team would pocket from a 64 team basketball tournament? I would say it would as much as the whole NCAA 64 team tournament yields right now with a lot less mouths to feed! Bacisically the P5 would become the Bigs and everybody else would become the minor leagues officially!

(06-14-2014 10:47 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Another thing to consider in the break away for the P5 besides football is basketball. Just think how much money each P5 team would pocket from a 64 team basketball tournament? I would say it would as much as the whole NCAA 64 team tournament yields right now with a lot less mouths to feed! Bacisically the P5 would become the Bigs and everybody else would become the minor leagues officially!

So the P5 has 65 teams, and you'd hold a tourney with 64 teams? Wow, selection day will be rough!

(06-14-2014 10:50 AM)Knightsweat Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:47 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Another thing to consider in the break away for the P5 besides football is basketball. Just think how much money each P5 team would pocket from a 64 team basketball tournament? I would say it would as much as the whole NCAA 64 team tournament yields right now with a lot less mouths to feed! Bacisically the P5 would become the Bigs and everybody else would become the minor leagues officially!

So the P5 has 65 teams, and you'd hold a tourney with 64 teams? Wow, selection day will be rough!

Regular season will mean so much.

(06-14-2014 10:50 AM)Knightsweat Wrote:  

(06-14-2014 10:47 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Another thing to consider in the break away for the P5 besides football is basketball. Just think how much money each P5 team would pocket from a 64 team basketball tournament? I would say it would as much as the whole NCAA 64 team tournament yields right now with a lot less mouths to feed! Bacisically the P5 would become the Bigs and everybody else would become the minor leagues officially!

So the P5 has 65 teams, and you'd hold a tourney with 64 teams? Wow, selection day will be rough!

Could you imagine the one team that gets left out. half the teams would have losing records. TV ratings would be dismal. If they do indeed break away, then the best they could hope for would be a 16 team tournament.

A 16 team P5 tournament will generate just as much money because it skips all the meaningless and boring rounds nobody watches anyway.

You still have underdogs who are there for the first time in decades taking on traditional giants like Duke or UNC...only those underdogs have huge fan bases and bring entire states to watch them.