(12-31-2014 01:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I'm looking at it from a different perspective: What would be the costs of leaving FBS? And that's lower for Rice than it is for just about everyone else in FBS. Or in other words, Rice gets less benefit from being in FBS than other FBS schools.

Were you still watching the fourth quarter of the beat down Rice put on Fresno State in the Hawaii Bowl? It was an hour-long commercial for Rice University that touched on all of the important points made here - history, new football facilities, baseball national championship, academic success, smaller than everyone but one other FBS school, and real student athletes. The ESPN announcers annointed Rice a contender for the 2015 Access Bowl, and then celebrated further "the Rice Way" when David Bailiff put walk-on Jayson Carter in for a fourth quarter rushing play.

Television says 1.9M people watched the Hawaii Bowl. You can't buy that kind of goodwill.

(12-31-2014 02:50 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I'm looking at it from a different perspective: What would be the costs of leaving FBS? And that's lower for Rice than it is for just about everyone else in FBS. Or in other words, Rice gets less benefit from being in FBS than other FBS schools.

Were you still watching the fourth quarter of the beat down Rice put on Fresno State in the Hawaii Bowl? It was an hour-long commercial for Rice University that touched on all of the important points made here - history, new football facilities, baseball national championship, academic success, smaller than everyone but one other FBS school, and real student athletes. The ESPN announcers annointed Rice a contender for the 2015 Access Bowl, and then celebrated further "the Rice Way" when David Bailiff put walk-on Jayson Carter in for a fourth quarter rushing play.

Television says 1.9M people watched the Hawaii Bowl. You can't buy that kind of goodwill.

Exactly.

(12-31-2014 02:50 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I'm looking at it from a different perspective: What would be the costs of leaving FBS? And that's lower for Rice than it is for just about everyone else in FBS. Or in other words, Rice gets less benefit from being in FBS than other FBS schools.

Were you still watching the fourth quarter of the beat down Rice put on Fresno State in the Hawaii Bowl? It was an hour-long commercial for Rice University that touched on all of the important points made here - history, new football facilities, baseball national championship, academic success, smaller than everyone but one other FBS school, and real student athletes. The ESPN announcers annointed Rice a contender for the 2015 Access Bowl, and then celebrated further "the Rice Way" when David Bailiff put walk-on Jayson Carter in for a fourth quarter rushing play.

Television says 1.9M people watched the Hawaii Bowl. You can't buy that kind of goodwill.

+1000

(12-31-2014 02:50 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I'm looking at it from a different perspective: What would be the costs of leaving FBS? And that's lower for Rice than it is for just about everyone else in FBS. Or in other words, Rice gets less benefit from being in FBS than other FBS schools.

Were you still watching the fourth quarter of the beat down Rice put on Fresno State in the Hawaii Bowl? It was an hour-long commercial for Rice University that touched on all of the important points made here - history, new football facilities, baseball national championship, academic success, smaller than everyone but one other FBS school, and real student athletes. The ESPN announcers annointed Rice a contender for the 2015 Access Bowl, and then celebrated further "the Rice Way" when David Bailiff put walk-on Jayson Carter in for a fourth quarter rushing play.

Television says 1.9M people watched the Hawaii Bowl. You can't buy that kind of goodwill.

Boom

[/preposterous thread]

(12-31-2014 02:00 PM)monarchoptimist Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:31 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:28 PM)monarchoptimist Wrote:  Rice is closer to joining the PAC 12 than dropping to FCS. They really need 3 things:
1. Maintain or improve their level of competitiveness in football.
2. Upgrade their football facilities.
3. Improve their competitiveness in basketball.

Rice needs one more thing before they're going to be acceptable to the Pac12. The Owls need the folks out west to actually want them to join. Right now that isn't the case. It may never be, unless they are critical to persuading the Longhorns to come along. So it's extremely long odds at best.

Absolutely, they need an invite and that is nowhere in the offing. However, one of the major benefits in Rice's favor is I don't think they need to be with Texas in order to be acceptable to the PAC 12. As you stated, the PAC 12 may be waiting on Texas forever. The PAC 12 has no need of expansion but should an incentive ever present itself and Texas remains unavailable Rice checks many of the boxes without many of the negatives of other schools including Texas. Not every PAC 12 school is interested in having Texas (or the rest of the Texahoma 4) in the conference. Of course $$$ talks so they would make due. It is all hypothetical but since the thread was about reckless, irresponsible speculation why not throw it out there.

I tend to agree. I do not think we need UT to get the invite. After all, who would want the arrogance of UT that puts their interest ahead of that of the conference (Longhorn Network anyone?). I think a better pairing would be Rice and TCU. That would get PAC 12 into the two biggest metroplexes in Texas for recruiting. It would also be better destinations for flying into games. And it would pickup two schools on the rise as opposed to the team that couldn't have beaten the Little Sisters of the Poor in their bowl game!

(12-31-2014 02:16 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 02:07 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Rice to the AAC is far more likely than Rice to any power conference.

Yep, teams don't jump from CUSA to a power conference.

The AAC chose Houston over Rice for a reason.

But at least Rice used to be in a major conference, has a sizable stadium and has lots of money as well as a sizable potential fanbase. Not to mention, they have good academics that other conferences like.

Few other G5 schools can say that.

(12-31-2014 01:31 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:28 PM)monarchoptimist Wrote:  Rice is closer to joining the PAC 12 than dropping to FCS. They really need 3 things:
1. Maintain or improve their level of competitiveness in football.
2. Upgrade their football facilities.
3. Improve their competitiveness in basketball.

Rice needs one more thing before they're going to be acceptable to the Pac12. The Owls need the folks out west to actually want them to join. Right now that isn't the case. It may never be, unless they are critical to persuading the Longhorns to come along. So it's extremely long odds at best.

Considering a Pac12 with extremely limited options for expansion already turned down OU and OSU, I think Rice has a better chance of being included than schools like Boise St, Kansas State or TTech that people throw out there.

Inclusion of an academic name like Rice could potentially help secure the vote of a Stanford and Cal for a 4 team expansion of Texas, OU and one other, whereas most of the rest of the B12 schools would be roadblocks.

There's a reason it took so long for the Big East to finally "break into" Texas, though. There wasn't a basketball program worth a darn down there for it to be the worth all of its members' time. When it eventually came down to Houston and SMU...those other schools were talking exit strategy. Heck, you had enough schools audibly groaning against TCU, and those guys actually brought something to the table, athletically and academically.

Yeah, Houston got in ahead of Rice...it's not like Houston got to enjoy what schools like Cincinnati and USF had been doing for a good couple of years.

Rice probably won't have the AAC in its future, at least, not one with two Houston schools. That's probably because of UH and some retribution for SWC ribbing. But Rice definitely has the higher ceiling of the two schools from that city. It's not entirely fair or merited, but until ADs make these decisions and not presidents, the Rice's of D1 could maybe have better opportunities if they make...certain commitment$?

(12-31-2014 01:55 PM)Tiger Rag Wrote:  I think Rice will eventually go to the AAC in the next few years. I believe that the University of Houston is an expansion candidate for the Big 12 and that will leave the Houston market open for the AAC.

Rice in the AAC will be a good fit as they would join 3 more private schools:
SMU
Tulane
Tulsa

From your lips to God's ears.

And Rice would LOVE to join a conference with SMU, Tulane, Tulsa and Navy. That's half of the "Magnolia Conference" concept that's been floating around for 50 years.

(12-31-2014 02:17 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:23 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  There is no such thing as FBS non-scholarship - since to be in FBS it requires a certain level of scholarships. You could have a FCS level non-scholarship conference (think Ivy League) and you could then do a bowl game (like the old Northeast - Pioneer game, or the upcoming (2015) MEAC-SWAC game.

There already is an FCS non-scholarship conference other than the Ivy League.

The Pioneer Football League is a football-only conference for D-I schools that play non-scholarship FCS football. The Pioneer schools play their other sports in leagues that don't sponsor football (e.g., Butler in the Big East and San Diego in the West Coast Conference).

The Pioneer champion gets an autobid to the FCS playoffs.

He obviously missed the part where I said:
"It would be interesting to see if a 3rd option develops...similar to the Ivy and Pioneer conferences in FCS... for a FBS-non scholarship conference, but this is not in existence at this point."

Obviously one of the things that would have to happen is some changing of the rules. One obvious question would be "Why not accept the D1-FCS definition/standing?" The other would be "Could the Pioneer and Ivy be then able to 'Upgrade' to the FBS definition?" The answer to the first is that a "Bowl" eligibility may be preferable for a school as opposed to the stigma of the FCS playoff birth. The answer to the second is that it might actually be an ASSET for the Ivy and Pioneer conferences to play in the FBS level (as opposed to the FCS level) since their many of their members have historical standing and/or play high-level BB.

(12-31-2014 04:11 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 02:17 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:23 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  There is no such thing as FBS non-scholarship - since to be in FBS it requires a certain level of scholarships. You could have a FCS level non-scholarship conference (think Ivy League) and you could then do a bowl game (like the old Northeast - Pioneer game, or the upcoming (2015) MEAC-SWAC game.

There already is an FCS non-scholarship conference other than the Ivy League.

The Pioneer Football League is a football-only conference for D-I schools that play non-scholarship FCS football. The Pioneer schools play their other sports in leagues that don't sponsor football (e.g., Butler in the Big East and San Diego in the West Coast Conference).

The Pioneer champion gets an autobid to the FCS playoffs.

He obviously missed the part where I said:
"It would be interesting to see if a 3rd option develops...similar to the Ivy and Pioneer conferences in FCS... for a FBS-non scholarship conference, but this is not in existence at this point."

Obviously one of the things that would have to happen is some changing of the rules. One obvious question would be "Why not accept the D1-FCS definition/standing?" The other would be "Could the Pioneer and Ivy be then able to 'Upgrade' to the FBS definition?" The answer to the first is that a "Bowl" eligibility may be preferable for a school as opposed to the stigma of the FCS playoff birth. The answer to the second is that it might actually be an ASSET for the Ivy and Pioneer conferences to play in the FBS level (as opposed to the FCS level) since their many of their members have historical standing and/or play high-level BB.

You'd have to work out a lot of issues to make that work. For example: Under current rules, an FBS team can only count a game vs. an FCS team toward FBS bowl eligibility if the FCS team is giving its players at least 90% (IIRC) of the 63-scholarship FCS limit. Given that rule, it wouldn't make sense for FBS powers to play teams with zero scholarship players, whether it's an Ivy team or a no-scholarship team labeled "FBS". It's bad enough when FBS teams carefully choose weaker FCS programs for their body-bag games; the disparity in competition would be much worse if those FBS coaches were free to buy wins from non-scholarship programs.

Also, the FBS rules currently don't allow football-only FBS conferences; an FBS conference has to be a full-fledged conference sponsoring both FBS football and a minimum number of sports. That would exclude the Pioneer. And if you change that rule to allow football-only FBS conferences, you might see current FBS teams trying to take advantage of that, and the powers-that-be seem to have decided that's not desirable.

(12-31-2014 03:13 PM)jhruzek Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 02:00 PM)monarchoptimist Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:31 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:28 PM)monarchoptimist Wrote:  Rice is closer to joining the PAC 12 than dropping to FCS. They really need 3 things:
1. Maintain or improve their level of competitiveness in football.
2. Upgrade their football facilities.
3. Improve their competitiveness in basketball.

Rice needs one more thing before they're going to be acceptable to the Pac12. The Owls need the folks out west to actually want them to join. Right now that isn't the case. It may never be, unless they are critical to persuading the Longhorns to come along. So it's extremely long odds at best.

Absolutely, they need an invite and that is nowhere in the offing. However, one of the major benefits in Rice's favor is I don't think they need to be with Texas in order to be acceptable to the PAC 12. As you stated, the PAC 12 may be waiting on Texas forever. The PAC 12 has no need of expansion but should an incentive ever present itself and Texas remains unavailable Rice checks many of the boxes without many of the negatives of other schools including Texas. Not every PAC 12 school is interested in having Texas (or the rest of the Texahoma 4) in the conference. Of course $$$ talks so they would make due. It is all hypothetical but since the thread was about reckless, irresponsible speculation why not throw it out there.

I tend to agree. I do not think we need UT to get the invite. After all, who would want the arrogance of UT that puts their interest ahead of that of the conference (Longhorn Network anyone?). I think a better pairing would be Rice and TCU. That would get PAC 12 into the two biggest metroplexes in Texas for recruiting. It would also be better destinations for flying into games. And it would pickup two schools on the rise as opposed to the team that couldn't have beaten the Little Sisters of the Poor in their bowl game!

TCU, unlike Rice has zero chance with the PAC 12. They aren't changing the C in TCU anytime soon. The same can be said for Baylor. That is probably another roadblock. The PAC 12 simply lacks acceptable expansion options.
Rice would bring the PAC 12 network to Houston. That is a lot of $$$ in carriage fees.

(12-31-2014 03:19 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 02:16 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 02:07 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Rice to the AAC is far more likely than Rice to any power conference.

Yep, teams don't jump from CUSA to a power conference.

The AAC chose Houston over Rice for a reason.

But at least Rice used to be in a major conference, has a sizable stadium and has lots of money as well as a sizable potential fanbase. Not to mention, they have good academics that other conferences like.

Few other G5 schools can say that.

Exactly. There are extremely obvious reasons why a conference like the PAC 12 would prefer Rice to anyone in the AAC and even many Big 12 members. G5 hierarchy doesn't apply here. The PAC 12 isn't playing by the AAC's rules

(12-31-2014 02:02 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:55 PM)Tiger Rag Wrote:  I think Rice will eventually go to the AAC in the next few years. I believe that the University of Houston is an expansion candidate for the Big 12 and that will leave the Houston market open for the AAC.

Rice in the AAC will be a good fit as they would join 3 more private schools:
SMU
Tulane
Tulsa

been there, done that, twice now. They've probably worn out their welcome with us. Of course we will do what is best for us... and if that means the AAC, then fine... but I doubt we would change just to rejoin them.

I don't think UH will be a candidate for the Big12 as long as UT runs that show. UH recruits many of the same athletes that UT does and from many of the same areas. Adding them to the conference would 'dilute' the Big12 relative to the SEC and nobody in the Big12 needs better access to the city of Houston. They'll take UTSA before they take UH. UH seems to me to be a better candidate for the ACC or even the SEC rather than the Big12.

I think the drivers of the next moves will be
a) the Big12 needing a conference championship to improve their chances of a playoff bid
b) the SEC needing to not kill itself in conference games and cost itself 2 or even 3 shots at the playoffs.

Tulane, Tulsa, and SMU left C-USA because they were panicked about what to do next. Tulane and SMU joined what they thought was going to be the Big East (a conference with an autobid).

The problem with college sports is that similar schools have resorted to backstabbing and abandoning each other in the desperate chase of either money or an auto-bid. It's a bit outrageous, but that's life.

The PAC is really limited in options if they ever look to expand again. I think Rice would be on their candidate list...

(12-31-2014 01:55 PM)Tiger Rag Wrote:  . I believe that the University of Houston is an expansion candidate for the Big 12 and that will leave the Houston market open for the AAC.

UH doesn't have alot of friends in the Big 12 right now. The northern schools aren't likely to want another Texas team, Texas dislikes UH intensely, and the UH president has alienated many of her colleagues across the state.

(01-01-2015 08:35 AM)HuskyU Wrote:  The PAC is really limited in options if they ever look to expand again. I think Rice would be on their candidate list...

Any major conference that feels it needs Texas real estate is going to enhance Rice's chances. I know Big Ten fans will say they don't need Texas schools not located in Austin or College Station, but good luck getting any ROI from Nebraska until then.

(01-01-2015 02:38 PM)Pellet Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:55 PM)Tiger Rag Wrote:  . I believe that the University of Houston is an expansion candidate for the Big 12 and that will leave the Houston market open for the AAC.

UH doesn't have alot of friends in the Big 12 right now. The northern schools aren't likely to want another Texas team, Texas dislikes UH intensely, and the UH president has alienated many of her colleagues across the state.

You don't know what you are talking about. There used to be a riff between Texas and UH. That's over and the UH president has played a HUGE role in thawing the relationship between the two schools. She is very respected and very liked among her peers. In fact, she just spent a week meeting with UT officials and regents.

(01-01-2015 11:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(01-01-2015 02:38 PM)Pellet Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:55 PM)Tiger Rag Wrote:  . I believe that the University of Houston is an expansion candidate for the Big 12 and that will leave the Houston market open for the AAC.

UH doesn't have alot of friends in the Big 12 right now. The northern schools aren't likely to want another Texas team, Texas dislikes UH intensely, and the UH president has alienated many of her colleagues across the state.

You don't know what you are talking about. There used to be a riff between Texas and UH. That's over and the UH president has played a HUGE role in thawing the relationship between the two schools. She is very respected and very liked among her peers. In fact, she just spent a week meeting with UT officials and regents.

One of the former presidents did alienate people, but not Khator.

(12-31-2014 01:08 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 01:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 11:21 AM)panama Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 11:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Everyone who has moved from FCS to FBS lately has been a large-enrollment public university. Rice looks a lot more like Villanova than UConn. (No slight to UConn)

But Rice is already in. And the cost to remain in is pennies to them.

I'm looking at it from a different perspective: What would be the costs of leaving FBS? And that's lower for Rice than it is for just about everyone else in FBS. Or in other words, Rice gets less benefit from being in FBS than other FBS schools.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Rice gets tremendous visibility from being in FBS. Otherwise we'd be nothing more than another Case Western, Carnegie-Mellon, or WashU. Instead we're more in line with Stanford, Duke, and Northwestern.

Where do people get this idea that Rice is some academic juggernaut equivalent to Stanford, Northwestern, or Duke? They're not and they never have been. Rice has a lot of money, but they're a tiny school (less than 40% of the enrollment of Duke, NW, or Stanford, and much smaller than all UAA schools except Brandeis) and they're much younger than those others except Brandeis (Rice was founded in 1912).

Also, why do you think the UAA is below the D-1 private schools? The top of the UAA is every bit as good as Stanford, Duke, and Northwestern. Chicago, Emory, and NYU are quasi-ivies and probably have better reputations in D3 than they had when they were in D1. NYU in particular has benefited by investing in expanding the student body to 42k students, which has helped them a lot more than investing in maintaining D1 football.

Case Western, Rochester, and Carnegie have declined since they dropped D1 sports, but that's because the cities they're in have declined (in Case's case, the neighborhood completely imploded as well). They'd be even worse off today if they had shelled out a billion dollars to subsidize MAC-quality football over the past 50 years.

The real question is whether the UAA (an association of research schools) would make an offer to a school with less than half of the research expenditures of the lowest-ranking UAA school (117 million for Rice vs 253 million for Carnegie). If anything the primary reason Rice would get an offer is the added athletic prestige of having a former SWC school, and to expand the brand name of UAA schools in the huge Texas market.