(02-11-2015 05:31 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 01:00 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 11:37 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Is there really a need for the old black universities that existed in the segregated America? Seems like each state must consolidate some of their schools in the same areas in order to produce stronger entities with higher quality education. The same needs to be done is public school systems.

I can see why you'd ask. It smacks of "separate but equal." Especially because Indian-centric schools have mostly shut down (see the once-mighty Carlisle Indians, and their dominant football teams under Pop Warner and Jim Thorpe).

But there's all sorts of state schools that were traditionally non-inclusive. Florida State did not admit men until 1947, and UNC didn't admit women into all of its programs until 1963. Many public schools (such as Temple and William & Mary) were founded as religious schools. As long as they don't currently discriminate, I don't see a problem with HBCUs still being around.

Well, it comes down to there are only sp many dollars to go around and most states and our nation is over taxed as it is. People will rebel soon enough over high taxes and state and federal waste and over spending.

If people were going to rebel over taxes, they would have done it in the 50s or 60s when the top income tax rate was 91%. Government spending in the USA is the lowest of any 1st world country, and it's gone down considerably in the last few decades.

It's a good thing, and I hope it continues. But let's not pretend that we're in an unprecedented crisis when it comes to taxes. Surely we are more than capable of making improvements without the threat of a crisis to prod us to do so.

The only crisis is the public demands more than it is willing to pay for and the public labors under the belief they are paying unprecedented high taxes.

There is just no way that schools will be able to retain the model they currently run on long term.

People are starting no to care where someone went to school and the numbers at schools like WGU are only going to increase.

(02-12-2015 07:45 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:02 PM)TerryD Wrote:  LSU outlines dire budget scenarios, layoffs and course cuts
by Melinda Deslatte
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Feb. 08, 2015
Widespread layoffs, hundreds of classes eliminated, academic programs jettisoned and a flagship university that can't compete with its peers around the nation - those are among the grim scenarios LSU leaders outlined in internal documents as the threat of budget cuts looms.

Gov. Bobby Jindal's administration is considering deep budget slashing to higher education for the fiscal year that begins July 1 to help close a $1.6 billion shortfall.

LSU campuses from Shreveport to New Orleans were asked to explain how a reduction between 35 percent and 40 percent in state financing - about $141.5 million to the university system - would affect their operations. The documents, compiled for LSU system President F. King Alexander, were obtained through a public records request.

The potential implications of such hefty cuts were summed up in stark terms: 1,433 faculty and staff jobs eliminated; 1,572 courses cut; 28 academic programs shut down across campuses; and six institutions declaring some form of financial emergency.

At the system's flagship university in Baton Rouge, the documents say 27 percent of faculty positions would have to be cut, along with 1,400 classes, jeopardizing the accreditation of the engineering and business colleges. Some campus buildings would be closed.

"These severe cuts would change LSU's mission as a public research and land-grant university. It will no longer be capable of competing with America's significant public universities and will find itself dramatically behind the rest of the nation," the documents say.

The scenario goes on to say that budget cuts of 35 percent or more to LSU's main campus would damage educational quality and deteriorate the university's ability to compete with its peers, "significantly impacting the value of an LSU degree for our students."

The documents also describe ripple effects, saying reductions in course offerings and academic programs would make it more difficult for students to finish their degrees and discourage some students from enrolling at all.

That could mean higher levels of student debt for those students who take longer to wrap up their classes, plus lost tuition revenue for campuses when other potential students choose not to attend, campus leaders said in their write-ups.

The LSU system includes the main campus in Baton Rouge and smaller campuses in Alexandria, Shreveport and Eunice, along with medical schools in New Orleans and Shreveport, a biomedical research center, an agricultural center and a law school.

Each campus offered its own lists of how the cuts would be divvied up.

LSU at Alexandria worried its entire campus could lose accreditation. LSU-Eunice said it would be forced to choose between closing its entire health sciences division that serves 30 percent of its students or lose 10 individual programs. The Shreveport campus said it would have to cut one-fourth of all academic programs.

LSU Law Center Chancellor Jack Weiss described the reductions as "extremely severe if not catastrophic." He said he'd have to cut summer stipends, an apprenticeship program, research grants and a law clinic, and furlough faculty and staff.

At least five agricultural research stations and the parish-based extension program run by the LSU Agricultural Center would be shuttered, in a state where agriculture is one of the largest industries, according to the documents.

The university system's well-known research institute, the Pennington Biomedical Research Center, said cuts of the magnitude proposed would force it to cut 191 jobs, suspend some of its work on chronic diseases and mothball 48 percent of its valuable research space.

Executive Director William Cefalu said scientists would leave, taking their research and grant dollars with them, worsening the impact of the cuts.

When cuts are announced doomsday scenarios are always the response of educators who, whether they are stellar or abysmal at their jobs, enjoy and depend upon colas and an overhead creep of slightly overspending to spending exactly their budgets every year. I doubt seriously the medical school or any serious research project is going to suffer. In most SEC schools the athletic departments are separate entities and are not impacted, and if they are it is slight, or indirect. What this signals to me is what I was chided for posting two years ago, the end of branch colleges, the closing or re-tasking of Jr Colleges, and the closing of ancillary state schools whose purposes can be folded successfully into those of larger schools.

There will be less jobs in academia going forward, and on line classes from larger state schools will take the place of the expensive overhead of maintaining smaller regional colleges.

The announced cuts are a starting point for the serious discussion within the academic community that needs to take place. Until their worlds are threatened educators tend to march lockstep on the issue of appropriations. The governor simply put the choices over cuts in their court, a prudent political move. Had the governor announced what needed to be cut he would have been excoriated. Now the Big schools will protect their turf at the expense of those venues that grew to serve the now retiring Boomers and the education facilities will recede by and large in the reverse manner in which they grew during the 3 decades in which Boomers and then their children went to school.

By the way Terry since the children of the Boomers came of age the average earning and purchasing power of each succeeding generation has been declining therefore the cost of education which rose with market demand is now too high. Just as with oil if you cut the number of rigs (schools) then the demand is artificially heightened by the decrease in supply and that allows the tuition demands of the larger schools to shrink less than the overall market might otherwise allow.

This issue of course has both positive and negative consequences. How each state handles it will determine whether the negatives outweigh the positives, or vice versa.

One thing that has skewed the earnings of college grads is the lethargy of Human Resource managers.

Jobs that used to not require a college degree are now described as requiring college education. Not because the job has changed to a point where it requires two year or four years of education but because it is easier to use a college degree as a shibboleth to weed out applicants.

When my father went to work at Boeing he had a high school diploma. They gave him an aptitude test and he became a tool and die maker after a short training period. Then he got drafted and used the GI Bill to become an engineer.

Today it is hard to get a job as a cop without at least a two year degree and some agencies won't promote or even hire without a four year degree.

My wife's office now asks for at least a two year degree to be an administrative assistant and most of the recent hires have held four year degrees. These are jobs that top out at $21,000.

(02-12-2015 11:00 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 05:31 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 01:00 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 11:37 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Is there really a need for the old black universities that existed in the segregated America? Seems like each state must consolidate some of their schools in the same areas in order to produce stronger entities with higher quality education. The same needs to be done is public school systems.

I can see why you'd ask. It smacks of "separate but equal." Especially because Indian-centric schools have mostly shut down (see the once-mighty Carlisle Indians, and their dominant football teams under Pop Warner and Jim Thorpe).

But there's all sorts of state schools that were traditionally non-inclusive. Florida State did not admit men until 1947, and UNC didn't admit women into all of its programs until 1963. Many public schools (such as Temple and William & Mary) were founded as religious schools. As long as they don't currently discriminate, I don't see a problem with HBCUs still being around.

Well, it comes down to there are only sp many dollars to go around and most states and our nation is over taxed as it is. People will rebel soon enough over high taxes and state and federal waste and over spending.

If people were going to rebel over taxes, they would have done it in the 50s or 60s when the top income tax rate was 91%. Government spending in the USA is the lowest of any 1st world country, and it's gone down considerably in the last few decades.

It's a good thing, and I hope it continues. But let's not pretend that we're in an unprecedented crisis when it comes to taxes. Surely we are more than capable of making improvements without the threat of a crisis to prod us to do so.

The only crisis is the public demands more than it is willing to pay for and the public labors under the belief they are paying unprecedented high taxes.

People in the USA pay much lower taxes than they used to in past decades by a long shot.

People in the USA pay much lower taxes than most European residents do.

The infrastructure in the USA is crumbling and will take, what, a couple of trillion dollars to repair/replace? This will provide many, many jobs as well.

Do we really have to wait until the bridges fall in and the roads degrade, etc..etc... before people realize that big tax increases are needed to deal with this one particular issue, let alone many others?

Why are people so misinformed about the level of taxation in this country at present versus our fairly recent past and our fellow Western Democracies?



P.S. The budget proposal sent by President Obama recently to Congress. His discretionary spending proposal has the USA spending 55% of those funds on military defense.

That is the proposed budget, not the one that a hawkish Congress will pass, such as forcing the Army to buy more things M1 Abrams tanks it neither wants nor needs.

Our defense budget is bigger than the next dozen or so countries combined, most of whom are our allies like Britain, France, Germany, etc..

While I am a hawk on defense, this is massive pork and massive overkill (no pun intended). We can shift a fair percentage of these funds to things like infrastructure repair.

(02-12-2015 11:35 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 11:00 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 05:31 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 01:00 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 12:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I can see why you'd ask. It smacks of "separate but equal." Especially because Indian-centric schools have mostly shut down (see the once-mighty Carlisle Indians, and their dominant football teams under Pop Warner and Jim Thorpe).

But there's all sorts of state schools that were traditionally non-inclusive. Florida State did not admit men until 1947, and UNC didn't admit women into all of its programs until 1963. Many public schools (such as Temple and William & Mary) were founded as religious schools. As long as they don't currently discriminate, I don't see a problem with HBCUs still being around.

Well, it comes down to there are only sp many dollars to go around and most states and our nation is over taxed as it is. People will rebel soon enough over high taxes and state and federal waste and over spending.

If people were going to rebel over taxes, they would have done it in the 50s or 60s when the top income tax rate was 91%. Government spending in the USA is the lowest of any 1st world country, and it's gone down considerably in the last few decades.

It's a good thing, and I hope it continues. But let's not pretend that we're in an unprecedented crisis when it comes to taxes. Surely we are more than capable of making improvements without the threat of a crisis to prod us to do so.

The only crisis is the public demands more than it is willing to pay for and the public labors under the belief they are paying unprecedented high taxes.

People in the USA pay much lower taxes than they used to in past decades by a long shot.

People in the USA pay much lower taxes than most European residents do.

The infrastructure in the USA is crumbling and will take, what, a couple of trillion dollars to repair/replace? This will provide many, many jobs as well.

Do we really have to wait until the bridges fall in and the roads degrade, etc..etc... before people realize that big tax increases are needed to deal with this one particular issue, let alone many others?

Why are people so misinformed about the level of taxation in this country at present versus our fairly recent past and our fellow Western Democracies?

They aren't misinformed. As a percent of GDP, taxes have stayed relatively stable for decades. The rates change (and are much lower than the 60s), but the government's take stays the same.

And the US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, far higher than Europe. Europe has reduced its personal income tax rates, just as the US has. Remember the Beatles song, "The Taxman?" Europe drove a lot of high earners to the US with its high marginal rates. Now we are losing corporations offshore with our high corporate rates.

People care about nothing until it impacts them personally.

(02-12-2015 11:42 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 11:35 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 11:00 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 05:31 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 01:00 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Well, it comes down to there are only sp many dollars to go around and most states and our nation is over taxed as it is. People will rebel soon enough over high taxes and state and federal waste and over spending.

If people were going to rebel over taxes, they would have done it in the 50s or 60s when the top income tax rate was 91%. Government spending in the USA is the lowest of any 1st world country, and it's gone down considerably in the last few decades.

It's a good thing, and I hope it continues. But let's not pretend that we're in an unprecedented crisis when it comes to taxes. Surely we are more than capable of making improvements without the threat of a crisis to prod us to do so.

The only crisis is the public demands more than it is willing to pay for and the public labors under the belief they are paying unprecedented high taxes.

People in the USA pay much lower taxes than they used to in past decades by a long shot.

People in the USA pay much lower taxes than most European residents do.

The infrastructure in the USA is crumbling and will take, what, a couple of trillion dollars to repair/replace? This will provide many, many jobs as well.

Do we really have to wait until the bridges fall in and the roads degrade, etc..etc... before people realize that big tax increases are needed to deal with this one particular issue, let alone many others?

Why are people so misinformed about the level of taxation in this country at present versus our fairly recent past and our fellow Western Democracies?

They aren't misinformed. As a percent of GDP, taxes have stayed relatively stable for decades. The rates change (and are much lower than the 60s), but the government's take stays the same.

And the US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, far higher than Europe. Europe has reduced its personal income tax rates, just as the US has. Remember the Beatles song, "The Taxman?" Europe drove a lot of high earners to the US with its high marginal rates. Now we are losing corporations offshore with our high corporate rates.

I think that lots of those European corporate tax rates are going to head back up.

For instance, the Germans, French and others are putting severe pressure on the Republic of Ireland to raise its low corporate tax rate of 12.5%.

They are also putting pressure on for the closure of all European corporate "tax havens".


http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142405...1790057266

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econo...n-tax.html


http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/12...16827.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...ure-mounts

http://www.economist.com/news/business-a...x-policies

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/econo...-1.1966394

Truth be told, does Louisiana with "only" 4.6million people really need the number of four year, public universities that it has?

I would guess there aren't really that many LA high school graduates that need to be served by the existing institutions. But it just goes to show, once something is established it's politically difficult to kill it.


So they'll continue raising the cost of attendance, since that's basically a federal subsidy via the FAFSA.

(02-12-2015 12:37 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 06:48 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Lets spend 52 Million in rent on a building that cost 23 Million to turnkey. Brilliant.

REI, Chicago partner picked to build office building at IUPUI
Tom Harton
February 19, 2013

A partnership led by REI Real Estate Services plans to build a 100,000-square-foot office building on the IUPUI campus to house the university's School of Philanthropy and the offices of Chancellor Charles R. Bantz, among others.

The five-story, $22.9 million building would be constructed on university-owned land at the northeast corner of New York Street and University Boulevard that would be leased to the developer. IU would agree to lease office space in the building for 20 years, at which time the university would take ownership of the building.
Construction of the 100,000-square-foot office building might start this summer and wrap up next year. (Rendering: Ratio Architects)
Tom Morrison, IU's vice president for capital planning and facilities, said construction might start as soon as this summer and wrap up next year. But before construction can begin, the university needs to get approval from the Commission for Higher Education and the State Budget Committee.

The IU Trustees approved the plan Feb. 15, the culmination of a process that began last spring with a solicitation to developers that resulted in 18 proposals.

Morrison said IU was pleased with the high level of interest in what would be the first campus building at IUPUI resulting from a public-private partnership. Explaining why the university didn't pursue a publicly owned development, Morrison said: "We certainly have a need for the project, but it might not rise to the level of something the state would fund."

The building, designed by Ratio Architects, will allow IUPUI to vacate some off-campus space it leases. The School of Philanthropy, for example, would leave the Sigma Theta Tau nursing sorority office building at 550 W. North St. Another tenant in the proposed building, the School of Social Work, also leases space off campus.

The project also would provide office space for Indianapolis-campus administrators, including the chancellor, who now occupy what is known on campus as "the double wide," a pre-fabricated structure at Vermont Street and Beauty Avenue on the west end of campus. Morrison said the campus master plan calls for housing at that site.

The resolution passed by the IU Trustees anticipates the university would spend about $2.6 million a year to occupy the building, about $1.7 million of which would be rent.

That reliable income stream will be attractive to lenders that consider financing the project. REI Vice President Jeremy Stephenson said the developer is in the process of lining up a financial package and doesn't anticipate that becoming an obstacle.

REI's partner in the development is Chicago-based Vermillion Enterprises LLC, which has experience in higher education real estate.

REI hasn't previously worked with IU on a project but has participated in numerous public-private development deals, including the local Marriott and JW Marriott hotels and office space for Anthem Inc.

"Our track record hopefully makes us well-suited to follow through on what we've committed to here," Stephenson said.

$1.7 million rent * 20 years = $34 million
$0.9 million in utilities/misc * 20 years - $18 million
$34 million + $18 million = $52 million

That's how you got the $52 million. However, presumably $18 million of that would be incurred whether the building was rented or bought. To be a true apples to apples comparison, it should be: $34 million over 20 years v. $23 million upfront.

NPV of an annuity = Payment*((1-(1+rate)^-periods)/rate)

In this case, the break even discount rate would be 4.05% as 23,000,000 = 1700000*((1-(1+.040507875)^-20)/.040507875). Anything higher favors the university's decision. Anything lower favors your view. Anything matching is a toss.

1.7 is probably NNN or modified gross, and the 2.6 includes operating expenses. We don't know who is going to pay what, same for capital expenses. Where is the option to purchase back the improvements, after lease commencement? IUPUI could fund raise or finance, then do sale / leaseback to an investor and put millions in their pocket.

The concept of doing the long term ground lease to the developer I like that very much.
But the overall deal, no not that great. I would have added a couple more floors for future growth and or lease those to tenants that like to do business with IUPUI.

(02-12-2015 02:14 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:37 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 06:48 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Lets spend 52 Million in rent on a building that cost 23 Million to turnkey. Brilliant.

REI, Chicago partner picked to build office building at IUPUI
Tom Harton
February 19, 2013

A partnership led by REI Real Estate Services plans to build a 100,000-square-foot office building on the IUPUI campus to house the university's School of Philanthropy and the offices of Chancellor Charles R. Bantz, among others.

The five-story, $22.9 million building would be constructed on university-owned land at the northeast corner of New York Street and University Boulevard that would be leased to the developer. IU would agree to lease office space in the building for 20 years, at which time the university would take ownership of the building.
Construction of the 100,000-square-foot office building might start this summer and wrap up next year. (Rendering: Ratio Architects)
Tom Morrison, IU's vice president for capital planning and facilities, said construction might start as soon as this summer and wrap up next year. But before construction can begin, the university needs to get approval from the Commission for Higher Education and the State Budget Committee.

The IU Trustees approved the plan Feb. 15, the culmination of a process that began last spring with a solicitation to developers that resulted in 18 proposals.

Morrison said IU was pleased with the high level of interest in what would be the first campus building at IUPUI resulting from a public-private partnership. Explaining why the university didn't pursue a publicly owned development, Morrison said: "We certainly have a need for the project, but it might not rise to the level of something the state would fund."

The building, designed by Ratio Architects, will allow IUPUI to vacate some off-campus space it leases. The School of Philanthropy, for example, would leave the Sigma Theta Tau nursing sorority office building at 550 W. North St. Another tenant in the proposed building, the School of Social Work, also leases space off campus.

The project also would provide office space for Indianapolis-campus administrators, including the chancellor, who now occupy what is known on campus as "the double wide," a pre-fabricated structure at Vermont Street and Beauty Avenue on the west end of campus. Morrison said the campus master plan calls for housing at that site.

The resolution passed by the IU Trustees anticipates the university would spend about $2.6 million a year to occupy the building, about $1.7 million of which would be rent.

That reliable income stream will be attractive to lenders that consider financing the project. REI Vice President Jeremy Stephenson said the developer is in the process of lining up a financial package and doesn't anticipate that becoming an obstacle.

REI's partner in the development is Chicago-based Vermillion Enterprises LLC, which has experience in higher education real estate.

REI hasn't previously worked with IU on a project but has participated in numerous public-private development deals, including the local Marriott and JW Marriott hotels and office space for Anthem Inc.

"Our track record hopefully makes us well-suited to follow through on what we've committed to here," Stephenson said.

$1.7 million rent * 20 years = $34 million
$0.9 million in utilities/misc * 20 years - $18 million
$34 million + $18 million = $52 million

That's how you got the $52 million. However, presumably $18 million of that would be incurred whether the building was rented or bought. To be a true apples to apples comparison, it should be: $34 million over 20 years v. $23 million upfront.

NPV of an annuity = Payment*((1-(1+rate)^-periods)/rate)

In this case, the break even discount rate would be 4.05% as 23,000,000 = 1700000*((1-(1+.040507875)^-20)/.040507875). Anything higher favors the university's decision. Anything lower favors your view. Anything matching is a toss.

1.7 is probably NNN or modified gross, and the 2.6 includes operating expenses. We don't know who is going to pay what, same for capital expenses. Where is the option to purchase back the improvements, after lease commencement? IUPUI could fund raise or finance, then do sale / leaseback to an investor and put millions in their pocket.

The concept of doing the long term ground lease to the developer I like that very much.
But the overall deal, no not that great. I would have added a couple more floors for future growth and or lease those to tenants that like to do business with IUPUI.

If it's NNN/Modified Gross then the difference is less than $11 million, as many of the fees baked into the $1.7 mm rent would be incurred either way.

"Where is the option to purchase back the improvements, after lease commencement?"
You probably know more about the building design than I do, but I doubt that this is a big deal. It's a 20 year lease and the life of most modern buildings is between 20-30 years. Regardless, the CapEx could still not be a big deal if they are tenant-specific and UC is likely to renew the lease. I'm not sure if it's likely that thsoe factors are present in this deal, but they could very well be.

"IUPUI could fund raise or finance, then do sale / leaseback to an investor and put millions in their pocket."
You might very well know more about the possible specifics of the potential deals than I do, but who knows what they would have gotten in the sale? They could very easily end up behind doing a lease buyback. It all depends on the premium paid by the buyer and the NPV of the rental payments. Lease buybacks are not an inherently better method.

Don't get me wrong. It may very well be a bad deal. However, I can't say for sure. The structure and money amounts aren't unreasonable or inherently bad.

(02-12-2015 11:09 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 07:45 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:02 PM)TerryD Wrote:  LSU outlines dire budget scenarios, layoffs and course cuts
by Melinda Deslatte
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Feb. 08, 2015
Widespread layoffs, hundreds of classes eliminated, academic programs jettisoned and a flagship university that can't compete with its peers around the nation - those are among the grim scenarios LSU leaders outlined in internal documents as the threat of budget cuts looms.

Gov. Bobby Jindal's administration is considering deep budget slashing to higher education for the fiscal year that begins July 1 to help close a $1.6 billion shortfall.

LSU campuses from Shreveport to New Orleans were asked to explain how a reduction between 35 percent and 40 percent in state financing - about $141.5 million to the university system - would affect their operations. The documents, compiled for LSU system President F. King Alexander, were obtained through a public records request.

The potential implications of such hefty cuts were summed up in stark terms: 1,433 faculty and staff jobs eliminated; 1,572 courses cut; 28 academic programs shut down across campuses; and six institutions declaring some form of financial emergency.

At the system's flagship university in Baton Rouge, the documents say 27 percent of faculty positions would have to be cut, along with 1,400 classes, jeopardizing the accreditation of the engineering and business colleges. Some campus buildings would be closed.

"These severe cuts would change LSU's mission as a public research and land-grant university. It will no longer be capable of competing with America's significant public universities and will find itself dramatically behind the rest of the nation," the documents say.

The scenario goes on to say that budget cuts of 35 percent or more to LSU's main campus would damage educational quality and deteriorate the university's ability to compete with its peers, "significantly impacting the value of an LSU degree for our students."

The documents also describe ripple effects, saying reductions in course offerings and academic programs would make it more difficult for students to finish their degrees and discourage some students from enrolling at all.

That could mean higher levels of student debt for those students who take longer to wrap up their classes, plus lost tuition revenue for campuses when other potential students choose not to attend, campus leaders said in their write-ups.

The LSU system includes the main campus in Baton Rouge and smaller campuses in Alexandria, Shreveport and Eunice, along with medical schools in New Orleans and Shreveport, a biomedical research center, an agricultural center and a law school.

Each campus offered its own lists of how the cuts would be divvied up.

LSU at Alexandria worried its entire campus could lose accreditation. LSU-Eunice said it would be forced to choose between closing its entire health sciences division that serves 30 percent of its students or lose 10 individual programs. The Shreveport campus said it would have to cut one-fourth of all academic programs.

LSU Law Center Chancellor Jack Weiss described the reductions as "extremely severe if not catastrophic." He said he'd have to cut summer stipends, an apprenticeship program, research grants and a law clinic, and furlough faculty and staff.

At least five agricultural research stations and the parish-based extension program run by the LSU Agricultural Center would be shuttered, in a state where agriculture is one of the largest industries, according to the documents.

The university system's well-known research institute, the Pennington Biomedical Research Center, said cuts of the magnitude proposed would force it to cut 191 jobs, suspend some of its work on chronic diseases and mothball 48 percent of its valuable research space.

Executive Director William Cefalu said scientists would leave, taking their research and grant dollars with them, worsening the impact of the cuts.

When cuts are announced doomsday scenarios are always the response of educators who, whether they are stellar or abysmal at their jobs, enjoy and depend upon colas and an overhead creep of slightly overspending to spending exactly their budgets every year. I doubt seriously the medical school or any serious research project is going to suffer. In most SEC schools the athletic departments are separate entities and are not impacted, and if they are it is slight, or indirect. What this signals to me is what I was chided for posting two years ago, the end of branch colleges, the closing or re-tasking of Jr Colleges, and the closing of ancillary state schools whose purposes can be folded successfully into those of larger schools.

There will be less jobs in academia going forward, and on line classes from larger state schools will take the place of the expensive overhead of maintaining smaller regional colleges.

The announced cuts are a starting point for the serious discussion within the academic community that needs to take place. Until their worlds are threatened educators tend to march lockstep on the issue of appropriations. The governor simply put the choices over cuts in their court, a prudent political move. Had the governor announced what needed to be cut he would have been excoriated. Now the Big schools will protect their turf at the expense of those venues that grew to serve the now retiring Boomers and the education facilities will recede by and large in the reverse manner in which they grew during the 3 decades in which Boomers and then their children went to school.

By the way Terry since the children of the Boomers came of age the average earning and purchasing power of each succeeding generation has been declining therefore the cost of education which rose with market demand is now too high. Just as with oil if you cut the number of rigs (schools) then the demand is artificially heightened by the decrease in supply and that allows the tuition demands of the larger schools to shrink less than the overall market might otherwise allow.

This issue of course has both positive and negative consequences. How each state handles it will determine whether the negatives outweigh the positives, or vice versa.

One thing that has skewed the earnings of college grads is the lethargy of Human Resource managers.

Jobs that used to not require a college degree are now described as requiring college education. Not because the job has changed to a point where it requires two year or four years of education but because it is easier to use a college degree as a shibboleth to weed out applicants.

When my father went to work at Boeing he had a high school diploma. They gave him an aptitude test and he became a tool and die maker after a short training period. Then he got drafted and used the GI Bill to become an engineer.

Today it is hard to get a job as a cop without at least a two year degree and some agencies won't promote or even hire without a four year degree.

My wife's office now asks for at least a two year degree to be an administrative assistant and most of the recent hires have held four year degrees. These are jobs that top out at $21,000.

Wow, my salary in 1990, first job out of college, was sales and commission. 35K base, lol.

(02-12-2015 07:45 AM)JRsec Wrote:  What this signals to me is what I was chided for posting two years ago, the end of branch colleges, the closing or re-tasking of Jr Colleges, and the closing of ancillary state schools whose purposes can be folded successfully into those of larger schools.

Very true. The merger of Georgia State with "Georgia Perimeter College" and stuff like that is one example soon taking place in metro Atlanta. Other examples will crop up around the country.

Quote:There will be less jobs in academia going forward, and on line classes from larger state schools will take the place of the expensive overhead of maintaining smaller regional colleges.

True again.

Quote:since the children of the Boomers came of age the average earning and purchasing power of each succeeding generation has been declining

Don't have the data close at hand, but I know I have read -- not sure where or when -- that inflation-adjusted, per-capita hourly-earnings for US workers peaked in 1973. That matches up with my personal observations.

(02-12-2015 11:09 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Jobs that used to not require a college degree are now described as requiring college education. Not because the job has changed to a point where it requires two year or four years of education but because it is easier to use a college degree as a shibboleth to weed out applicants.

Also, you've got so many extra thousands of unemployed or under-employed college-graduates floating around, so it's easy for employers to insist on a 4-years degree as a prerequisite.

Quote:When my father went to work at Boeing he had a high school diploma. They gave him an aptitude test and he became a tool and die maker after a short training period. Then he got drafted and used the GI Bill to become an engineer.

I'd be fascinated to know when he was born, when he started with Boeing, etc. I don't think that career-path would be open to anyone today.

Quote:My wife's office now asks for at least a two year degree to be an administrative assistant and most of the recent hires have held four year degrees. These are jobs that top out at $21,000.

Well, they can just drive for Uber or whatever at nights to make an extra few hundred per week. What an exciting part of America's dynamic, growing economy!

(02-12-2015 11:48 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  People care about nothing until it impacts them personally.

(02-12-2015 11:50 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 11:09 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 07:45 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 08:02 PM)TerryD Wrote:  LSU outlines dire budget scenarios, layoffs and course cuts
by Melinda Deslatte
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Feb. 08, 2015
Widespread layoffs, hundreds of classes eliminated, academic programs jettisoned and a flagship university that can't compete with its peers around the nation - those are among the grim scenarios LSU leaders outlined in internal documents as the threat of budget cuts looms.

Gov. Bobby Jindal's administration is considering deep budget slashing to higher education for the fiscal year that begins July 1 to help close a $1.6 billion shortfall.

LSU campuses from Shreveport to New Orleans were asked to explain how a reduction between 35 percent and 40 percent in state financing - about $141.5 million to the university system - would affect their operations. The documents, compiled for LSU system President F. King Alexander, were obtained through a public records request.

The potential implications of such hefty cuts were summed up in stark terms: 1,433 faculty and staff jobs eliminated; 1,572 courses cut; 28 academic programs shut down across campuses; and six institutions declaring some form of financial emergency.

At the system's flagship university in Baton Rouge, the documents say 27 percent of faculty positions would have to be cut, along with 1,400 classes, jeopardizing the accreditation of the engineering and business colleges. Some campus buildings would be closed.

"These severe cuts would change LSU's mission as a public research and land-grant university. It will no longer be capable of competing with America's significant public universities and will find itself dramatically behind the rest of the nation," the documents say.

The scenario goes on to say that budget cuts of 35 percent or more to LSU's main campus would damage educational quality and deteriorate the university's ability to compete with its peers, "significantly impacting the value of an LSU degree for our students."

The documents also describe ripple effects, saying reductions in course offerings and academic programs would make it more difficult for students to finish their degrees and discourage some students from enrolling at all.

That could mean higher levels of student debt for those students who take longer to wrap up their classes, plus lost tuition revenue for campuses when other potential students choose not to attend, campus leaders said in their write-ups.

The LSU system includes the main campus in Baton Rouge and smaller campuses in Alexandria, Shreveport and Eunice, along with medical schools in New Orleans and Shreveport, a biomedical research center, an agricultural center and a law school.

Each campus offered its own lists of how the cuts would be divvied up.

LSU at Alexandria worried its entire campus could lose accreditation. LSU-Eunice said it would be forced to choose between closing its entire health sciences division that serves 30 percent of its students or lose 10 individual programs. The Shreveport campus said it would have to cut one-fourth of all academic programs.

LSU Law Center Chancellor Jack Weiss described the reductions as "extremely severe if not catastrophic." He said he'd have to cut summer stipends, an apprenticeship program, research grants and a law clinic, and furlough faculty and staff.

At least five agricultural research stations and the parish-based extension program run by the LSU Agricultural Center would be shuttered, in a state where agriculture is one of the largest industries, according to the documents.

The university system's well-known research institute, the Pennington Biomedical Research Center, said cuts of the magnitude proposed would force it to cut 191 jobs, suspend some of its work on chronic diseases and mothball 48 percent of its valuable research space.

Executive Director William Cefalu said scientists would leave, taking their research and grant dollars with them, worsening the impact of the cuts.

When cuts are announced doomsday scenarios are always the response of educators who, whether they are stellar or abysmal at their jobs, enjoy and depend upon colas and an overhead creep of slightly overspending to spending exactly their budgets every year. I doubt seriously the medical school or any serious research project is going to suffer. In most SEC schools the athletic departments are separate entities and are not impacted, and if they are it is slight, or indirect. What this signals to me is what I was chided for posting two years ago, the end of branch colleges, the closing or re-tasking of Jr Colleges, and the closing of ancillary state schools whose purposes can be folded successfully into those of larger schools.

There will be less jobs in academia going forward, and on line classes from larger state schools will take the place of the expensive overhead of maintaining smaller regional colleges.

The announced cuts are a starting point for the serious discussion within the academic community that needs to take place. Until their worlds are threatened educators tend to march lockstep on the issue of appropriations. The governor simply put the choices over cuts in their court, a prudent political move. Had the governor announced what needed to be cut he would have been excoriated. Now the Big schools will protect their turf at the expense of those venues that grew to serve the now retiring Boomers and the education facilities will recede by and large in the reverse manner in which they grew during the 3 decades in which Boomers and then their children went to school.

By the way Terry since the children of the Boomers came of age the average earning and purchasing power of each succeeding generation has been declining therefore the cost of education which rose with market demand is now too high. Just as with oil if you cut the number of rigs (schools) then the demand is artificially heightened by the decrease in supply and that allows the tuition demands of the larger schools to shrink less than the overall market might otherwise allow.

This issue of course has both positive and negative consequences. How each state handles it will determine whether the negatives outweigh the positives, or vice versa.

One thing that has skewed the earnings of college grads is the lethargy of Human Resource managers.

Jobs that used to not require a college degree are now described as requiring college education. Not because the job has changed to a point where it requires two year or four years of education but because it is easier to use a college degree as a shibboleth to weed out applicants.

When my father went to work at Boeing he had a high school diploma. They gave him an aptitude test and he became a tool and die maker after a short training period. Then he got drafted and used the GI Bill to become an engineer.

Today it is hard to get a job as a cop without at least a two year degree and some agencies won't promote or even hire without a four year degree.

My wife's office now asks for at least a two year degree to be an administrative assistant and most of the recent hires have held four year degrees. These are jobs that top out at $21,000.

Wow, my salary in 1990, first job out of college, was sales and commission. 35K base, lol.

To point to Native Georgians post on this page (and below yours), my first job out of college in the 70's was straight commission with draw and was over $40,000 the first year and went up after that. For those not familiar a draw allowed you only to accept commissions at the level that you wanted to receive them. This way you could adjust your tax bracket for the year and pool your commissions for downturns in the economy, or slow seasonal months. Yours was a really good starting wage, but as Native Georgian points out your 35 would not have purchased what 35 would have purchased in the late 70's. For instance my first road vehicle cost me about 7,500 brand new and was not an economy model. I doubt you could touch the same kind of vehicle in 1990 for less than 17,000.

(02-13-2015 01:10 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

Quote:When my father went to work at Boeing he had a high school diploma. They gave him an aptitude test and he became a tool and die maker after a short training period. Then he got drafted and used the GI Bill to become an engineer.

I'd be fascinated to know when he was born, when he started with Boeing, etc. I don't think that career-path would be open to anyone today.

Born in 1932, and no it wouldn't be open to him today. My uncle who started working for a developer as a bulldozer driver and worked his way up to being the top guy on hand overseeing the construction of entire planned communities and golf courses would not have that path open to him today either.

(02-13-2015 09:58 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  .... would not have that path open to him today either.

This is a HUGE problem. There must be a path forward for hard working individuals to make a good living through labor in America. Otherwise, the whole thing will collapse.

I believe we went the wrong way with NAFTA and GATT back in the nineties. It might mean higher prices for products, but the blue-collar job market in America needs to be restored.

(02-13-2015 03:35 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 09:58 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  .... would not have that path open to him today either.

This is a HUGE problem. There must be a path forward for hard working individuals to make a good living through labor in America. Otherwise, the whole thing will collapse.

I believe we went the wrong way with NAFTA and GATT back in the nineties. It might mean higher prices for products, but the blue-collar job market in America needs to be restored.

Get ready for the collapse or the middle class revolt (unlikely but perhaps at the polls, ultimately).

(02-11-2015 05:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-11-2015 11:58 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  here is what Louisiana needs to start with

Shut down southern-BR and southern-BR law school
Shut down southern-no and merge it with UNO
Shut down southern-Shreveport

I bet we could save all the $$ we need by just shutting down UL-Lafayette. Who needs that when we have LSU just 50 miles away? Talk about duplication.

U. Louisiana is the second largest university in the state at 19,000 students and second to LSU academically along with LA Tech. Lafayette is the fastest growing city and wealthiest in the state. It just surpassed Shreveport as the #3 MSA in Louisiana. It doesn't matter the distance to LSU, it is too important to the state.

I agree with the earlier poster about the reorganization of schools to the 4 major universities, Louisiana State, Louisiana, Louisiana Tech and the University of New Orleans.

Estimated enrollment at other universities (rounded):

LSU - 28,000
Louisiana - 19,000
Southeastern LA. - 15,000
LA Tech - 11,000
UNO - 11,000
Northwestern State - 9,000
UL Monroe - 8,000
McNeese State - 8,000
Nichols State - 6,500
Southern - 7,000
Grambling - 5,000

(02-13-2015 04:36 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 03:35 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 09:58 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  .... would not have that path open to him today either.

This is a HUGE problem. There must be a path forward for hard working individuals to make a good living through labor in America. Otherwise, the whole thing will collapse.

I believe we went the wrong way with NAFTA and GATT back in the nineties. It might mean higher prices for products, but the blue-collar job market in America needs to be restored.

Get ready for the collapse or the middle class revolt (unlikely but perhaps at the polls, ultimately).

The Middle Class is mentally defeated. They wont even revolt at the polls. They haven't the imagination for it.

The University of New Orleans because of the millions or maybe a billion of state wide budget cuts this year for all state universities might be forced to cut 16 million dollars a year from its budget. What about the University of Louisiana at Lafayette ULL and its sister companion school the a University of Louisiana at Monroe ULM. Also La.Tech Big problem reducing the quality of education in Louisiana which is poor anyway!

(02-14-2015 12:11 AM)Savacool Wrote:  The University of New Orleans because of the millions or maybe a billion of state wide budget cuts this year for all state universities might be forced to cut 16 million dollars a year from its budget. What about the University of Louisiana at Lafayette ULL and its sister companion school the a University of Louisiana at Monroe ULM. Also La.Tech Big problem reducing the quality of education in Louisiana which is poor anyway!

I can't speak for LaTech or ULM, but UL is in better shape than any other public 4 year in the state including LSU. UL will come out stronger than before and strengthen its roots while other schools die on the vine.

Honestly, these schools should be shuttered or downgraded to JUCO or Vocational schools. SUNO, Nichols St, LSU-A, LSU-S, ULM, Grambling, McNeese St., SeLU and NWSU.

4 year institutions should be UNO, LSU, Southern, UL and La Tech.

LSU retains the health science centers in Shreveport and New Orleans.
UL absorbs McNeese, Nichols St, LSU-A & LSU-E.
UNO absorbs SeLU.
La Tech absorbs NwSU, ULM, Grambling and LSU-S

This will never happen though.