(02-12-2015 04:25 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Again, What does it matter what people thought made up the constellations 3000 years ago?

Because planets appear to go past stars in every day of every year.

LOL wut?

You will have to carefully explain how that matters in context of any of this.

I honestly don't think you understand any of astronomy aspects of this on even the most basic levels. That post was a very telling statement.

Its no disrespect, maybe 1 in 100 do because it simply never interested them. Most people would never give it a first thought.

The fact that the planets move past the stars is the ONLY thing that makes this sign possible at all. Jupiter is the only planet capable of sitting in the womb of Virgo for 9.5 months. All other planets move way too fast or way to slow in the sky. And it only does it within this specific set of circumstance once, for one day, in all of human history. And this alignment just happens to be PERFECTLY and EXACTLY foretold in the Bible as a "sign in the heavens".

(02-12-2015 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:09 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I guess it was some of the other versus in the video that made me surprised. It's hard to credit the Pleiades as a universally known constellation, as if every culture looked up and said, "hey, there's a bunch of sisters". You can consider me skeptical that interpretation of the same set of stars as Virgo arose independently among cultures without influence from the Greeks, but I'll defer on that argument for now.

Job 9:9 NIV - He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV Wrote:He is the Maker of the Bear[a] and Orion,     the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.

Again, What does it matter what people thought made up the constellations 3000 years ago?

The sign did not appear 3000 years ago, it only happens once, in 2017 AD.

If the sign is real then it is intended to be known by the people living in 2017, thus the sign should correlate and line up with the knowledge used in 2017 AD, not 3000 BC.

The civilized world has called Virgo the Virgin for thousands of years.

The bible refers specifically to a virgin in the sky. The signs all line up perfectly with the knowledge and understanding we have available today. These signs have never lined up in this fashion in human history.

Well the current astronomically accepted constellations include a certain area of the sky, not just the simple layout of the several brightest stars, which is technically known as an asterism (like the "big dipper"). In that area of the sky there are far more stars than the 6 or 10 that are easiest to see. Some people can see more stars than others just based on differences in visual ability.

(02-12-2015 04:25 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Again, What does it matter what people thought made up the constellations 3000 years ago?

Because planets appear to go past stars in every day of every year.

I will note that I categorically reject revealed truth of religious texts, and do not accept even the deist conception of a deity. But, I'm not really trying to belittle your beliefs here.

Constellations are meaningless constructs in terms of Astronomy. They are significant in Astrology and in various mythologies. But, using the constellation Virgo and the text of Revelations seems to me to be a mythological Mashup.

To each his own... However, Eric has it laid out extremely well throughout this entire thread.

(02-12-2015 04:39 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Well the current astronomically accepted constellations include a certain area of the sky, not just the simple layout of the several brightest stars, which is technically known as an asterism (like the "big dipper"). In that area of the sky there are far more stars than the 6 or 10 that are easiest to see. Some people can see more stars than others just based on differences in visual ability.

I'm not even sure how any of this could possibly matter concerning these two constellations and the moon, sun and planets involved with the sign.

There is not a star or constellation in the sky you do not see other dim stars and nebula/galaxies behind it. That is a universal constant, everywhere in the sky in every constellation, they are in the background. Some minor stars have been added to the feet of the Bear and a few other minor examples of alterations are out there.

But we have been teaching for 2257 years now that Leo has 9 stars.

Virgo has been taught as having a womb, feet and head in the same areas for 3500 years in most civilized cultures.

These particular 2 constellations have been famously seen in the same fashion for over 2.5 millennia.

(02-12-2015 02:17 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  I wonder if they'll stay in place for 7 years while there's hell on earth with beasts from the ground, etc after the rapture...

I don't think they do.

Revelation 6:12-17 suggests the stars will fall and the sky will literally be "rolled up like a scroll" and everyone on earth will see the empty sky and the throne of Heaven off in the distance and be in utter terror.

UGH I don't want to be around for that nightmarish sight. Nothing even remotely good happens after that point to the people left on earth with the mark of the beast.

Adding to the freakiness, there will be a total eclipse of the sun 2017-08-21 when the sun is in Leo. Simulation below (I suggest muting the sound):




The eclipse will cross the US diagonally from Oregon to South Carolina:
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/SE...oogle.html

(02-12-2015 05:04 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 04:39 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Well the current astronomically accepted constellations include a certain area of the sky, not just the simple layout of the several brightest stars, which is technically known as an asterism (like the "big dipper"). In that area of the sky there are far more stars than the 6 or 10 that are easiest to see. Some people can see more stars than others just based on differences in visual ability.

I'm not even sure how any of this could possibly matter concerning these two constellations and the moon, sun and planets involved with the sign.

There is not a star or constellation in the sky you do not see other dim stars and nebula/galaxies behind. That is a universal constant, everywhere in the sky in every constellation, they are in the background. Some minor stars have been added to the feet of the Bear and a few other minor examples of alterations are out there.

But we have been teaching for 2257 years now that Leo has 9 stars.
Virgo has been taught as having a womb, feet and head in the same areas for 3500 years in most civilized cultures.

These particular 2 constellations have been famously seen in the same fashion for over 2.5 millennia.

The church has been teaching that? I've had astronomy classes and they definitely don't teach that.

(02-12-2015 04:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 04:25 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Again, What does it matter what people thought made up the constellations 3000 years ago?

Because planets appear to go past stars in every day of every year.

LOL wut?

You will have to carefully explain how that matters in context of any of this.

I honestly don't think you understand any of astronomy aspects of this on even the most basic levels. That post was a very telling statement.

Its no disrespect, because maybe 1 in 30 do because it never interested them.

The fact that the planets move past the stars is the ONLY thing that makes this sign possible at all. Jupiter is the only planet capable of sitting in the womb of Virgo for 9.5 months. All other planets move way too fast or way to slow in the sky. And it only does it within this specific set of circumstance once, for one day, in all of human history. And this alignment just happens to be PERFECTLY and EXACTLY foretold in the Bible as a "sign in the heavens".

I didn't intend to say that you'd see planets whizzing past stars like cars on a freeway, merely that you could pick a few stars in the sky near a planet and pick some story to tell about how those stars represented some mythological happening. There is nothing particularly interesting about seeing them together from an astronomy standpoint.

In the context of this discussion, the only interesting part to me is how the mythology of the constellations matches the mythology of the Bible. If this is revealed truth of the Christian God, then why would he choose something that is significant to Greek mythology as a vehicle for his "sign".

The other minor piece of this being interesting is that these particular occurrences are rare enough to occur only once during recorded history (which I'll accept without question here, because I don't even really care, but it seems pretty self-evident that it's a rare event). As for why it's coincidental that Jupiter is associated with "the star or planet of the Messiah" and being in a constellation, it's probably because it lingers in the same place in the sky for about the gestational period of humans.

I will throw out that I've been published (albeit as a co-author, and as part of an undergraduate project) in The Astrophysical Journal, and disregard your ad hominem in that context. Everything you're discussing has more to do with Astrology and very little to do with Astronomy in the first place.

(02-12-2015 04:53 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  To each his own... However, Eric has it laid out extremely well throughout this entire thread.

I'll grant that he has been very consistent, reasonable and on point. I have not had this kind of discussion with someone before because I generally just move on past when I see something like this.

To me, the interesting parts of theology come in trying to understand what people think is in God's mind. As in, asking people "why do you think that you are not following an evil god? Just because he says so? Why don't you evaluate the morals of your own deity?"

(02-12-2015 05:20 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I didn't intend to say that you'd see planets whizzing past stars like cars on a freeway, merely that you could pick a few stars in the sky near a planet and pick some story to tell about how those stars represented some mythological happening. There is nothing particularly interesting about seeing them together from an astronomy standpoint.

Well the problem is there are not many examples of specific ssihn in the heavans in the bible. There are only a certain few and this one just hapopnes to line up absolutly perfectly with the constellation we call the Virgin.

Exactly

If it was so unspectacular or common then someone could point out other common bible signs of the stars that currently correlate so perfectly with how we see the constellations today. One that is specifically described in the all that absurd detail and then plays out in utter and perfect fashion and only does it once in all human history. The problem with that argument is that most did not even see this verse as speaking about constellations for millennia. It has always been one of the most mysterious verses in the entire Bible. Only in the last 4-5 years has this knowledge been revealed.

Notice the bible doesn't even call the woman a virgin, we simply understand her to be because she is pregnant with the Son of god and future King of all mankind.

And we just happen to have a famous constellation called the Virgin and all this just happens to perfectly line up with the sun, moon, stars and planets as described WORD FOR WORD in the bible for just one single day in all of human history.....right after an perfect 41-42 week gestation inside what we consider the womb of the virgin by the only planet capable of doing so.

yup...nothing to see here. lol

(02-12-2015 05:40 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 05:20 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I didn't intend to say that you'd see planets whizzing past stars like cars on a freeway, merely that you could pick a few stars in the sky near a planet and pick some story to tell about how those stars represented some mythological happening. There is nothing particularly interesting about seeing them together from an astronomy standpoint.

Well the problem is there are not many examples of specific ssihn in the heavans in the bible. There are only a certain few and this one just hapopnes to line up absolutly perfectly with the constellation we call the Virgin.

It seems odd that the same god who says to not worship idols of other religions would then rely on the mythology of those that worshiped other religions in order to deliver his message.

(02-12-2015 05:40 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If it was so unspectacular or common then someone could point out other common bible signs of the stars that currently correlate so perfectly with how we see the constellations today. One that is specifically described in the all that absurd detail and then plays out in utter and perfect fashion and only does it once in all human history. The problem with that argument is that most did not even see this verse as speaking about constellations for millennia. It has always been one of the most mysterious verses in the entire Bible. Only in the last 4-5 years has this knowledge been revealed.

To me, this is a very big problem. Where you see mysterious, I see so vague as to be meaningless and encourage people to look for meaning in the curiosities of everyday life.

In the event that nothing in particular happens on that day, what would your reaction be?

Regardless, I'll promise to buy you a round on New Year's, 2018.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. ~ Mark 13:32 KJV

Two things:
1. Why then would you try an interpret an event like this as proof of anything?
2. Why are you just not trusting in the Lord?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ~ Romans 10:9 KJV

It's an interesting way of establishing Earth as the spiritual Center of the Universe. As others have noted, the constellations are pretty arbitrary groups of stars. They certainly don't exist in a single plane, and only from Earth can they be viewed in the configurations we currently know them. So... if they're meaningful, so is Earth. Yipee!

(02-12-2015 05:59 PM)I45owl Wrote:  It seems odd that the same god who says to not worship idols of other religions would then rely on the mythology of those that worshiped other religions in order to deliver his message.

You can keep trying to spin it and pretend it involves some improper contact with a pagan god or Idol for all eternity.

The fact is HE created the stars and constellations and named them in the Mazzaroth before he even put them in the sky. Pagans came along later and tried to hijack the knowledge. How do they now have the market cornered on the virgin constellation? Was it not created by Him alone? Did he not intend for mankind to see this as the Virgin constellation? Says WHO?

As I said much earlier, you will have to explain that one to me, because it doesn't really make any sense. He specifically described the Virgin in the sky in his WORD and the bible says his WORD existed before the stars or the earth did.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(02-12-2015 06:05 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. ~ Mark 13:32 KJV

Two things:
1. Why then would you try an interpret an event like this as proof of anything?
2. Why are you just not trusting in the Lord?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ~ Romans 10:9 KJV

1- Because we were specifically told to watch for the signs in the sun, moon and stars multiple times in the bible and by Jesus himself. We are specifically told that the night sky contains and reveals knowledge and secrets. And what specific event did I say this was absolute proof of?

2- How in the world did you make the leap that I claimed I didn't trust his word? I am clearly saying just the opposite.

(02-12-2015 05:59 PM)I45owl Wrote:  In the event that nothing in particular happens on that day, what would your reaction be?

If you had fully read my posts in this thread you would know I already said I'm expect nothing but this sign to take place on that day.

Something big is always possible, but I expect a normal day on planet earth. Nothing else unusual.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/31...evelation/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...ation.html

There is so much logical fallacy in all of this I don't even know where to begin. I'll just state one very obvious fact in that none of this is astronomy, but rather astrology, and astrology amounts to exactly 0. Throw the religious jibber jabber any which way you want, it still doesn't change that astrology is a construct of human imagination with no basis in any prediction of any sort.

2017 could be the onset of the times of tribulation, fun fact, my birthday is also September 23rd.

Also who cares if it has religious connections or not, we will never know what God is thinking up until we meet him.