I enjoy lacrosse.

I just don't see that adding it would somehow add something amazing to the school. W&M already has more sports than it should for a school this size (as in, most schools our size have fewer sports).

I think the idea of elevating women's crew to varsity would be a good way to offset the addition of lacrosse, if we are going to get it.

But again, then we have 2 more sports, for a school that is already punching way above our weight in this area.

That's a good question. Let me set forth my viewpoint and then people can comment / question / criticize.

First, lacrosse is a sport which is widespread among our full-pay target market (which, as I understand, is students with excellent credentials from families earning over $150,000 per year.) Very few families earning less than that can shell out the $30K instate and $50K out-of-state which we charge at the moment. Therefore, not only will we be very attractive to potential student-athletes from that market, but we will also be more "familiar" for lack of a better term to students from that market who enjoy lacrosse in general.

Second, lacrosse is a sport where our peer group of universities (which I consider to be the Ivy League, the Patriot League, Georgetown, and a few others) have a strong tradition. We are the exception rather than the rule. The only other exceptions I can think of are Davidson and Wake Forest, and we are bigger than both. I don't think it is a positive. In many ways, our athletic program is more like a JMU in our sports offerings than a Bucknell, Georgetown, Colgate or even Richmond. Baseball doesn't make us attractive to most of our target admissions market. Lacrosse does. Having lacrosse gives us an opportunity to compete with other academically-prestigious institutions in a sport that many people in our target market care about. And I acknowledge that I am focusing a lot on the "prestige" value here, but I assure you, that is why Taylor Reveley finds the sport appealing. It is the same reason Richmond made the jump.

Third, lacrosse, unlike baseball, basketball, or football, is a sport where we could excel without making any compromises to our admissions standards. In other words, our academics work FOR us instead of AGAINST US. We could build a great program using the admissions standards we currently require of in-state students. Right now, academically qualified, Division 1-caliber lacrosse players are enrolling by the dozen at the NESCAC schools (Colby, Williams, Amherst, Connecticut College, Tufts, Bowdoin, etc) because there are not enough spots open to play Division 1 lacrosse at elite academic schools. Kids are routinely turning down weaker Division 1 academic schools in order to play Division 3 lacrosse at a stronger school. That is what you call OPPORTUNITY for William & Mary, and it is not true of soccer, baseball, or any other sport we compete in. This gives us a unique opportunity (like we do with gymnastics) to do extremely well in a sport without making any compromises to our academic mission.

Fourth, lacrosse I believe would attract an immediate strong following from the student body. Mens lacrosse is very popular at the patriot league schools, the ivy league schools, and our ACC peers in Charlottesville, Durham, South Bend and Chapel Hill. The sport is also very popular at Richmond. In the spring, there is not a mens sport which is easy to watch on campus. Now, I have a built-in bias against baseball, but I think its a fair question to ask whether many students attend baseball games out at Plumeri.

Fifth, I think we have a unique opportunity to be a perennial top-20 team in the sport. We offer Ivy League-caliber academics with the advantage of scholarships. We offer a great location and more natural geographic rivalries with the "big boys". Duke, Virginia, Hopkins, Maryland and North Carolina can all play us in Williamsburg without an overnight stay. Once we establish the program, from Day 1 we will be able to compete for any student athlete with good grades who does not have an offer from an ACC or Big Ten School. Every ivy league recruit, every patriot league recruit, every kid looking at Georgetown or Loyola-Maryland, will find us attractive.

Sixth, I think we have a chance to become dominant in our conference. None of the schools in the CAA can recruit against the Ivies, the Patriot League, Georgetown, or Virginia. Any kid who has to choose between Lehigh on the one hand, and a CAA lacrosse school (Delaware / Hofstra / UMass / Drexel / Towson) on the other, is going to Lehigh. Because most of the top college lacrosse players have good grades, very few of them end up in the CAA. Hence, the Ivy League and the Patriot League are better lacrosse conferences than the CAA. We wont have the same problem. As I said above, we can offer Ivy League academics with a chance (once we are established) to play in four straight NCAA tournaments. Because just as Richmond - as the strongest academic school in the southern conference - is rapidly dominating lacrosse in that conference, we will do the same in the CAA.

These are just some of the reasons. Comments welcome.

(02-25-2016 04:46 PM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  That's a good question. Let me set forth my viewpoint and then people can comment / question / criticize.

First, lacrosse is a sport which is widespread among our full-pay target market (which, as I understand, is students with excellent credentials from families earning over $150,000 per year.) Very few families earning less than that can shell out the $30K instate and $50K out-of-state which we charge at the moment. Therefore, not only will we be very attractive to potential student-athletes from that market, but we will also be more "familiar" for lack of a better term to students from that market who enjoy lacrosse in general.

Second, lacrosse is a sport where our peer group of universities (which I consider to be the Ivy League, the Patriot League, Georgetown, and a few others) have a strong tradition. We are the exception rather than the rule. The only other exceptions I can think of are Davidson and Wake Forest, and we are bigger than both. I don't think it is a positive. In many ways, our athletic program is more like a JMU in our sports offerings than a Bucknell, Georgetown, Colgate or even Richmond. Baseball doesn't make us attractive to most of our target admissions market. Lacrosse does. Having lacrosse gives us an opportunity to compete with other academically-prestigious institutions in a sport that many people in our target market care about. And I acknowledge that I am focusing a lot on the "prestige" value here, but I assure you, that is why Taylor Reveley finds the sport appealing. It is the same reason Richmond made the jump.

Third, lacrosse, unlike baseball, basketball, or football, is a sport where we could excel without making any compromises to our admissions standards. In other words, our academics work FOR us instead of AGAINST US. We could build a great program using the admissions standards we currently require of in-state students. Right now, academically qualified, Division 1-caliber lacrosse players are enrolling by the dozen at the NESCAC schools (Colby, Williams, Amherst, Connecticut College, Tufts, Bowdoin, etc) because there are not enough spots open to play Division 1 lacrosse at elite academic schools. Kids are routinely turning down weaker Division 1 academic schools in order to play Division 3 lacrosse at a stronger school. That is what you call OPPORTUNITY for William & Mary, and it is not true of soccer, baseball, or any other sport we compete in. This gives us a unique opportunity (like we do with gymnastics) to do extremely well in a sport without making any compromises to our academic mission.

Fourth, lacrosse I believe would attract an immediate strong following from the student body. Mens lacrosse is very popular at the patriot league schools, the ivy league schools, and our ACC peers in Charlottesville, Durham, South Bend and Chapel Hill. The sport is also very popular at Richmond. In the spring, there is not a mens sport which is easy to watch on campus. Now, I have a built-in bias against baseball, but I think its a fair question to ask whether many students attend baseball games out at Plumeri.

Fifth, I think we have a unique opportunity to be a perennial top-20 team in the sport. We offer Ivy League-caliber academics with the advantage of scholarships. We offer a great location and more natural geographic rivalries with the "big boys". Duke, Virginia, Hopkins, Maryland and North Carolina can all play us in Williamsburg without an overnight stay. Once we establish the program, from Day 1 we will be able to compete for any student athlete with good grades who does not have an offer from an ACC or Big Ten School. Every ivy league recruit, every patriot league recruit, every kid looking at Georgetown or Loyola-Maryland, will find us attractive.

Sixth, I think we have a chance to become dominant in our conference. None of the schools in the CAA can recruit against the Ivies, the Patriot League, Georgetown, or Virginia. Any kid who has to choose between Lehigh on the one hand, and a CAA lacrosse school (Delaware / Hofstra / UMass / Drexel / Towson) on the other, is going to Lehigh. Because most of the top college lacrosse players have good grades, very few of them end up in the CAA. Hence, the Ivy League and the Patriot League are better lacrosse conferences than the CAA. We wont have the same problem. As I said above, we can offer Ivy League academics with a chance (once we are established) to play in four straight NCAA tournaments. Because just as Richmond - as the strongest academic school in the southern conference - is rapidly dominating lacrosse in that conference, we will do the same in the CAA.

These are just some of the reasons. Comments welcome.

It's like everything I think is what you type but you make words good. Everytime I get into the debate in the future I'm just gonna refer people here.

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(02-25-2016 04:46 PM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  That's a good question. Let me set forth my viewpoint and then people can comment / question / criticize.

First, lacrosse is a sport which is widespread among our full-pay target market (which, as I understand, is students with excellent credentials from families earning over $150,000 per year.) Very few families earning less than that can shell out the $30K instate and $50K out-of-state which we charge at the moment. Therefore, not only will we be very attractive to potential student-athletes from that market, but we will also be more "familiar" for lack of a better term to students from that market who enjoy lacrosse in general.

Second, lacrosse is a sport where our peer group of universities (which I consider to be the Ivy League, the Patriot League, Georgetown, and a few others) have a strong tradition. We are the exception rather than the rule. The only other exceptions I can think of are Davidson and Wake Forest, and we are bigger than both. I don't think it is a positive. In many ways, our athletic program is more like a JMU in our sports offerings than a Bucknell, Georgetown, Colgate or even Richmond. Baseball doesn't make us attractive to most of our target admissions market. Lacrosse does. Having lacrosse gives us an opportunity to compete with other academically-prestigious institutions in a sport that many people in our target market care about. And I acknowledge that I am focusing a lot on the "prestige" value here, but I assure you, that is why Taylor Reveley finds the sport appealing. It is the same reason Richmond made the jump.

Third, lacrosse, unlike baseball, basketball, or football, is a sport where we could excel without making any compromises to our admissions standards. In other words, our academics work FOR us instead of AGAINST US. We could build a great program using the admissions standards we currently require of in-state students. Right now, academically qualified, Division 1-caliber lacrosse players are enrolling by the dozen at the NESCAC schools (Colby, Williams, Amherst, Connecticut College, Tufts, Bowdoin, etc) because there are not enough spots open to play Division 1 lacrosse at elite academic schools. Kids are routinely turning down weaker Division 1 academic schools in order to play Division 3 lacrosse at a stronger school. That is what you call OPPORTUNITY for William & Mary, and it is not true of soccer, baseball, or any other sport we compete in. This gives us a unique opportunity (like we do with gymnastics) to do extremely well in a sport without making any compromises to our academic mission.

Fourth, lacrosse I believe would attract an immediate strong following from the student body. Mens lacrosse is very popular at the patriot league schools, the ivy league schools, and our ACC peers in Charlottesville, Durham, South Bend and Chapel Hill. The sport is also very popular at Richmond. In the spring, there is not a mens sport which is easy to watch on campus. Now, I have a built-in bias against baseball, but I think its a fair question to ask whether many students attend baseball games out at Plumeri.

Fifth, I think we have a unique opportunity to be a perennial top-20 team in the sport. We offer Ivy League-caliber academics with the advantage of scholarships. We offer a great location and more natural geographic rivalries with the "big boys". Duke, Virginia, Hopkins, Maryland and North Carolina can all play us in Williamsburg without an overnight stay. Once we establish the program, from Day 1 we will be able to compete for any student athlete with good grades who does not have an offer from an ACC or Big Ten School. Every ivy league recruit, every patriot league recruit, every kid looking at Georgetown or Loyola-Maryland, will find us attractive.

Sixth, I think we have a chance to become dominant in our conference. None of the schools in the CAA can recruit against the Ivies, the Patriot League, Georgetown, or Virginia. Any kid who has to choose between Lehigh on the one hand, and a CAA lacrosse school (Delaware / Hofstra / UMass / Drexel / Towson) on the other, is going to Lehigh. Because most of the top college lacrosse players have good grades, very few of them end up in the CAA. Hence, the Ivy League and the Patriot League are better lacrosse conferences than the CAA. We wont have the same problem. As I said above, we can offer Ivy League academics with a chance (once we are established) to play in four straight NCAA tournaments. Because just as Richmond - as the strongest academic school in the southern conference - is rapidly dominating lacrosse in that conference, we will do the same in the CAA.

These are just some of the reasons. Comments welcome.

I totally agree that having a men's lacrosse program allows us to tap into a new market of students that we currently can't attract. This to me is the most important reason you outlined. I'm a big believer that sports adds a unique dimension to a school and can really add to a school's name recognition and popularity in a way that academics can not. I always think back to stories I hear of family friends that graduated from Duke in the '60's and '70's - they always say that back then, Duke was a regional academic powerhouse and that they'd stand no chance to gain admission now given its national prominence. I'd guess that this change in Duke's current prominence had to do more with its extremely successful basketball program (which flourished in the 80's and early 90's) than with a significant improvement in its academic offerings. I'm guessing that there are other universities that have similarly improved their national name recognition mostly based on athletics, which really helps the school as a whole. Again, not saying that Duke was not a good school 40 or 50 years ago, but I do believe that having a national powerhouse basketball team gave the school an ability to receive name recognition broadly across the country in a way that traditional academics did not allow. This is one of the reasons I'm such a big supporter of the athletic improvements we're making at W&M. If our basketball team made it to a few Final 4's, I'm sure a lot more people would know about our school in the mid-west and out on the west coast - I currently live in the mid-west and there are plenty of people that have no idea what or where W&M is. Similarly, I think that having a lacrosse program (and hopefully a good one) would allow us to get our name out there to families that may have never heard of W&M. The more people that know about W&M and how great it is, the better off the school will be in the long run. While I think the demographics of students a lacrosse program could attract may have some other benefits (wealthier and well connected families to help support the school...I'm really stereotyping now), I ultimately think that this ability of a new sport to help spread the word about our fine institution would be welcome for the school. At the end of the day, it's a strategic investment.

I want to reiterate that I am not anti-lacrosse, but just playing Devil's advocate here. I don't understand where the national recognition comes from outside of the lacrosse world. While some NCAA tournament games might get broadcast, there's no mention of them in any of the SportsCenter type shows or by any major sporting news outlet. How is it significantly different than men's soccer/tennis/golf/(anything not basketball or football)?

Lacrosse is big at lacrosse high schools. It may not be a big deal nationally yet but it makes a huge difference at schools that put an emphasis on the sport. And those schools are, by and large, in our desired recruiting base.

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ttgwm02,

That is a really good post. Thanks for taking the time to type it out.

I think we already get lots of OOS applicants from the main lacrosse states, so not sure we would end up getting more... but it is definitely possible it would increase our visibility in that area.

I agree that there are certain schools that have lacrosse, and it is a good peer group for us to be with, in general.

I agree with your point #3, but then there is the question of "what do we get out of gymnastics?"... I am happy we have the gymnastics program, but I would bet most people (not on this board) wouldn't care if it disappeared.

Not sure I agree with #4. People here always complain about turnout for football and basketball. Surely it would be lower for lacrosse? It is possible the names of visiting schools could drive some attendance by themselves.

I definitely believe we have a chance to be successful at it, which seems to be the main theme of your points. I'm just not sure if the payoff for being successful at lacrosse would be as big as the payoff of investing that money in the basketball program instead (or, somewhere else). As you mentioned gymnastics, it brings up the point that we are fairly successful in some of the smaller sports. Would being successful in another one add enough to our school profile to be worth the investment?

(02-25-2016 11:03 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  ttgwm02,

That is a really good post. Thanks for taking the time to type it out.

I think we already get lots of OOS applicants from the main lacrosse states, so not sure we would end up getting more... but it is definitely possible it would increase our visibility in that area.

I agree that there are certain schools that have lacrosse, and it is a good peer group for us to be with, in general.

I agree with your point #3, but then there is the question of "what do we get out of gymnastics?"... I am happy we have the gymnastics program, but I would bet most people (not on this board) wouldn't care if it disappeared.

Not sure I agree with #4. People here always complain about turnout for football and basketball. Surely it would be lower for lacrosse? It is possible the names of visiting schools could drive some attendance by themselves.

I definitely believe we have a chance to be successful at it, which seems to be the main theme of your points. I'm just not sure if the payoff for being successful at lacrosse would be as big as the payoff of investing that money in the basketball program instead (or, somewhere else). As you mentioned gymnastics, it brings up the point that we are fairly successful in some of the smaller sports. Would being successful in another one add enough to our school profile to be worth the investment?

As zablenoise said before, "It's like everything I think is what you type but you make words good."

(02-25-2016 10:36 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  I want to reiterate that I am not anti-lacrosse, but just playing Devil's advocate here. I don't understand where the national recognition comes from outside of the lacrosse world. While some NCAA tournament games might get broadcast, there's no mention of them in any of the SportsCenter type shows or by any major sporting news outlet. How is it significantly different than men's soccer/tennis/golf/(anything not basketball or football)?

This is a really good question, and I think Zablenoise did a nice job addressing it.

Lacrosse is still definitely a niche sport. But it is William and Mary's niche. Lacrosse has huge cache among the strong public high schools and the private schools that for the most part produce the students that are our target market. Much more so than tennis, golf, gymnastics, or baseball. Reveley himself said it to me and (our former head lacrosse coach) Al Albert in NYC at the alumni auction last year - "if anyone should have mens lacrosse, it is William and Mary, and I'd love to know what the leadership was thinking in cancelling the program in 1984."

Offering a strong mens lacrosse program gives kids from the schools we target one more reason to come to W&M or to feel that W&M is "their kind of place." This is exactly why Richmond chose to offer lacrosse. Because it was losing kids it wanted to attract to the Ivies, to the Patriot League, to Georgetown - and it wanted to give those kids one more reason to feel comfortable at Richmond. Soccer and baseball were not doing anything on that front. We have an Ivy-caliber name, Ivy-caliber academics, and better weather at a lower price. If we can do one more thing to make those type of students feel comfortable on campus, and give them one more reason to feel good about where they are applying, that this is a fun place in addition to having Harvard-quality academics, it is worth the investment.

More importantly, lacrosse is booming in high-quality high schools in California, Texas, Florida, Colorado, Minnesota, and Indiana. These are markets where traditionally the students from the elite high schools (the ones which have strong lacrosse teams) have gone to the state school, or to an elite private school (USC, Notre Dame, SMU, etc). Now many of their best lacrosse players are choosing to go to a NESCAC or Patriot League school, and their classmates are certainly more familiar with Colgate, Tufts, etc as a result. Why shouldn't we get that same benefit?

Having a strong lacrosse program, and recruiting kids from these areas (which we would do) puts us on the radar as a cool place to go. Not just a great academic school, but a place their friends go to play a great sport. That gets W&M on their radar. You think baseball can say the same thing? Or golf? Or gymnastics?

Go up to Virginia next Friday night with Syracuse coming to town. You'll see hundreds if not thousands of students at Klockner. Many of these students were fans of lacrosse in high school. They go despite the fact UVA stinks this year, and has since 2011. They go because its fun, fast paced, exciting, and the kids play with passion. Now we won't be UVA, but Richmond and High Point are getting great turn out after just 3 years.

Also, ESPNU and ESPN3 carry about 100 games each spring. The sport's base is growing. It has great television appeal when properly broadcast - much more so than college soccer. That is also far more exposure than tennis, golf, swimming or gymnastics will ever receive.

As for basketball / football. We can invest millions more into basketball but because of our conference, because of our lack of rivals among the top 25, because of our academic requirements, we would NEVER be a consistent top 25 team. And the kids we would attract by becoming a "mid major power" - most of them are basketball junkies or players who would not be able to qualify to get into school here. ODU was for years a great basketball program - it never consistently cracked the top 25, and it did not significantly increase their admissions yield or the quality of their applicants.

Duke broke through in basketball and it helped their admissions because it had a pre-existing foundation for greatness (conference, television networks, rivalries) to which it added a great coach. Duke also sold its soul by admitting kids in basketball who we could never take. We have a great coach but none of the other building blocks. So, we would get nowhere NEAR the same return on investment. As good as Harvard got in basketball a few years ago, people were still far more excited on campus about their hockey and lacrosse success. And however good we get, we are limited by our rivals. Duke will never play us home and home in mens basketball. Neither would UVA. Instead we get Delaware and Drexel. Year one in mens lacrosse Richmond hosted UVA in their first game. We would get home and homes with the best programs in the country. And now, this is true with soccer as well - we will never be a top-25 perennial power in soccer. There's just too much competition, and we have too many built-in disadvantages.

The same is true for football. I love our football team. Just like I love our basketball team. But FCS football doesn't draw kids to come to school. Kids from our target market like lacrosse. Its extremely popular on these high school campuses with the type of students we seek. If we invested the money we'd spend on lacrosse in football, we might get a little better. We might beat Richmond. Would that attract any students? We aren't Penn State - average joe high school kids in Virginia don't watch W&M on Comcast SportsNet and get fired up by the Grffin and say "Man I want that game day experience!" Our television football broadcasts are generally watched by alums, football fans and our potential recruits, sure - but how many other high school students who can get into W&M watch them?

But get us on a regional stage in the elite 8 of the NCAA lacrosse tournament, where we would play on TV and in person in front of thousands of families that have kids qualified to go to W&M? Now that is a good investment. And perhaps most importantly of all, if we stack our out-of-conference schedule with the big boys and our academic peers (2 of the following: Maryland, Duke, UNC, Virginia and Hopkins, along with at least 2 patriot league programs and 2 ivy league programs) it gets us mentioned, on TV and through word-of-mouth, in the same paragraph as the schools that currently capture many of our highest-qualified applicants. It can only help our academic reputation. And it will NEVER raise questions about our admissions standards.

Also, I think mens lacrosse has a lot more cache among high school students in our target markets than tennis, baseball, golf, gymnastics, and even soccer. Its a cool sport to watch. It draws the viewer in. You play in snow and you play in 100 degree weather. I think you'd be shocked at how popular it will be in the spring. Soccer plays on fall nights when school has just started and people are rushing, going to parties and trying to get adjusted. Baseball is 5 miles away and frankly is not that appealing to our target student market. Lacrosse will be on campus on spring nights when the weather is great and on Saturdays and Sundays at the perfect time.

So to summarize: yes, reason 1 is we will get a lot more "bang for our buck" from lacrosse than from soccer, baseball, golf, tennis, track or any of our other mens sports beyond football and basketball. And we can be good, FAST.

But the other reasons are:

1) it is a sport that is extremely popular in the high schools which produce most of our student body - in the mid-atlantic and new england regions.
2) it is a sport that is very popular and growing in excellent high schools in areas we don't draw from very well at the moment, but where there are a lot of qualified students who can pay full freight out of state.
3) it allows us to compete against our academic peers in the ACC, the ivy league and the patriot league on an annual basis - which we don't do in any other sport
4) it will be very popular among the students
5) it gives us a great on-campus athletic experience during spring (i mean really, if you had a choice, what would you go see? W&M v. UVA lacrosse on a Saturday afternoon at Zable (or Busch), or W&M v. UNC-W in baseball?)

(02-25-2016 11:40 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  As zablenoise said before, "It's like everything I think is what you type but you make words good."

Hey now. Don't twist my words for evil.

I don't want to be the Negative Nelly here, but there sure seems like a ton of wish casting in this thread. Look at W&M's admissions numbers. We're not exactly struggling with the "target market". We're listed on the out of state kids we can take as it is. You already have to have absurd credentials to make it in from say NJ. I think you are exaggerating the admissions impact this sport would have. I also think there is some MAJOR personal bias in estimating the popularity. Is it growing in popularity? Sure. But it is still a very niche sport with pockets of interest.

If you use the Spiders as your comparison, which is probably fair in a lot of ways, they had 237 people at their last game. If I go to their marquee game last year, at home against #2 UNC they had 345 in attendance.

Even if I go to lacrosse hot bed UVA, they had 1275 at their season opener against #14 Loyola while thy are ranked #9.

I'm sorry, but you are WAY overestimating the impact here. A basketball team that could consistently make the tourney would produce more butts in the seats than lacrosse, and I'm not sure it's even close.

(02-26-2016 07:26 AM)wml33t Wrote:  I'm sorry, but you are WAY overestimating the impact here. A basketball team that could consistently make the tourney would produce more butts in the seats than lacrosse, and I'm not sure it's even close.

If by "tourney" you mean NIT or NCAA, I think this is right on. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think we've at least doubled our basketball attendance since our last losing season. On bad nights we're still drawing at least as many as that UVA game, and if we put $10M into the Hall we can significantly improve the experience and also don't have to worry about Title IX since it's a multi-use facility. (I'm guessing about the last point)

(02-26-2016 07:54 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-26-2016 07:26 AM)wml33t Wrote:  I'm sorry, but you are WAY overestimating the impact here. A basketball team that could consistently make the tourney would produce more butts in the seats than lacrosse, and I'm not sure it's even close.

If by "tourney" you mean NIT or NCAA, I think this is right on. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think we've at least doubled our basketball attendance since our last losing season. On bad nights we're still drawing at least as many as that UVA game, and if we put $10M into the Hall we can significantly improve the experience and also don't have to worry about Title IX since it's a multi-use facility. (I'm guessing about the last point)

Yes, sorry - I meant NCAA/NIT. We are on the same page.

You make good points, and I admit personal bias. However, I have spent a lot of time in that niche market and can tell you that the sport is extremely popular at the youth level, and its popularity is highest among the national demographic from which W&M draws most of its students. Kids that once played football are now gravitating to lacrosse, in no significant part because of the publicity around concussions. Soccer's popularity has peaked.

What is interesting is now if you look at the lacrosse roster for say, Colgate, you see kids from Illinois, Colorado, Arizona, Missouri, Canada, Tennessee, Washington, Texas and California. If we had little exposure in those markets, Colgate had none. Now, because of the growth of the sport in those areas, Colgate draws students from those regions who don't need any admissions assistance. That puts Colgate on the minds of college counselors and parents of well-rounded kids who have the credentials to get into W&M.

Will be interesting to see how Richmond's attendance numbers change over course of this year.

And I have no doubt that a tournament bid would put more "butts in seats". However, I'm not sure it makes us any more noticeable than any other mid-major program that occasionally makes the NCAA, such as Iona. Once the "we made the tournament for the first time" phenomenon ends, reality sets in - our admissions standards in hoops make it legitimately impossible for us to be a perennial top-25. Sinking an additional $10M into basketball might make a marginal impact - a new practice facility, for example - but it isn't going to let us pursue kids we cant already go after. Tony has done a fantastic job, but the ceiling isn't much higher than where we currently are.

No one is trying to say that lax is bigger than hoops. What I do believe, however, is that lacrosse offers more bang for our buck than many of our current mens sports. Football and Basketball are obviously the "big two". My feeling is lacrosse would be a great compliment for us in the spring. Baseball (in my opinion) doesn't do much for us because it is too difficult to compete for attention against the big boys, and frankly, its losing popularity rapidly in the markets from which we draw the bulk of our student body.

As for UVA-Loyola, I was at that game and as I recall it was about 15 degrees, so I wouldn't use that as a barometer. Next Friday's game against Cuse will be a fairly accurate measure of fan support.

(02-26-2016 07:26 AM)wml33t Wrote:  I don't want to be the Negative Nelly here, but there sure seems like a ton of wish casting in this thread. Look at W&M's admissions numbers. We're not exactly struggling with the "target market". We're listed on the out of state kids we can take as it is. You already have to have absurd credentials to make it in from say NJ. I think you are exaggerating the admissions impact this sport would have. I also think there is some MAJOR personal bias in estimating the popularity. Is it growing in popularity? Sure. But it is still a very niche sport with pockets of interest.

If you use the Spiders as your comparison, which is probably fair in a lot of ways, they had 237 people at their last game. If I go to their marquee game last year, at home against #2 UNC they had 345 in attendance.

Even if I go to lacrosse hot bed UVA, they had 1275 at their season opener against #14 Loyola while thy are ranked #9.

I'm sorry, but you are WAY overestimating the impact here. A basketball team that could consistently make the tourney would produce more butts in the seats than lacrosse, and I'm not sure it's even close.

As others have said, I agree that investing money in basketball would give us some nice bang for our buck. If that money went towards starting a lacrosse program, I'd have no issue, but I do think that basketball is one of those programs that has a potentially high ceiling to give us some national attention. The two most popular college sports in the country are men's basketball and football. I think our hands are tied with football due to the structure of the how the conferences and postseason works. I don't think there's a way in football to get national recognition unless we get into bowl games year in and year out. Because the NCAA has drawn a line in the sand separating FBS from FCS schools, we have no chance of playing in an FBS bowl unless we are able to upgrade conferences (you all may have more insight into whether this is at all likely in the future). The only other way is to have sheer dominance at the FCS level like North Dakota State - I'd find it more likely for us to upgrade conferences than to reel off five straight national titles. In basketball though, the NCAA tournament commingles Power 5 teams with Mid-majors. In this way, if we can get to the tournament and do well, we can get some nice recognition. I'd say the Wichita State's, Gonzaga's, and even Dayton as of late, have benefitted in this way. Our basketball program has some clear needs which could end up having a nice return on investment.

OK..A little W & M history for you. William and Mary had a varsity lacrosse program. First Varsity season was 1970. It operated with no scholarships for the first year or two and never got even close to having more than a few scholarships. But still got nationally ranked in 1974.

Other programs (specifically I remember Duke, NC State and UNC) added lacrosse at about the same time. They fully funded the allowable scholarships and in short order became highly ranked. W+M may not have won most of the games against these new powers but the games were always competitive

In (as best I can remember) 1982, the school made the decision to cut a group of men's sports. Though never stated, it was purely in reaction to title IX. Several of the sports that had been around for years (I specifically remember swimming) were able to tap into alumni that had reached the point in life that they could make major donations. Those sports raised money and were able to continue

Lacrosse, only 12 years a varsity sport, did not have that luxury. It was thus cut.

30 years later, those alumni could possibly be in the position to help raise the money to re start a program. But, the animosity raised by cutting the program among the people who were associated with lacrosse at W + M is great. Still to this date people have a sour taste.

Many of us would like lacrosse at W+M. but that source of funding would probably not be there.

WandM4ME, sent you a PM.

Al Albert was an assistant coach when Lacrosse first became a sport. Fun fact that most people would never know given his success as a soccer player and coach

(02-26-2016 12:13 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Al Albert was an assistant coach when Lacrosse first became a sport. Fun fact that most people would never know given his success as a soccer player and coach

He also play lacrosse as an undergrad and then was head coach for both soccer and lacrosse for 6-8 years before going to soccer only