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ttgwm02 Offline
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Annual mens lacrosse plea
So its about time for my annual plea for mens lacrosse at the college. After watching a 3-year old program at High Point dismantle the University of Virginia last night, while also watching Richmond start the season 3-0, I cant help but think that this is the perfect time for mens lacrosse to return to William and Mary. The sport is growing, the traditional power in the state is on a four-year downward spiral with no end in sight, and our rival in Richmond is taking full advantage. Time to jump on board and bring back a spring sport that is great for fans.

I had a brief conversation with senior people in the athletic department in New York last year, and I was told that around $10M will get the job done without cutting a mens sport. Now, I personally think that cutting soccer, like Richmond, would be a wise move, but I'm sure that would not be a popular opinion on the board.

So..any donors? :)
02-24-2016 04:15 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
I may not have a lot of money but if we're starting lacrosse I will give what I can

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02-24-2016 04:18 PM
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BigTribe2 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
Besides the money, you would need a commensurate women's team with the same $$$ support to
balance the Title 9 equation. Since you can forget about getting men's soccer dropped---it has too long and too celebrated a history and place in W&M athletics (as well as avid soccer supporters in the athletic department...way up in the A.D.)----I don't know what other men's sports on a par with lacrosse could
be dropped.

Women's softball would be a commensurate addition to the addition of men's lacrosse program, but good luck on funding that. People bring up men's gymnastics but forget that one---the $$$ that costs is a pittance
and would not come close to balancing the Title 9 requirements.

Taylor Reveley is all for men's lacrosse because of the type of students it attracts and has said so at alumni gatherings when asked, but he also, in the next sentence, tells you Title 9 and $$$ makes it impossible.
02-24-2016 04:37 PM
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nogretheogre Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
Add womens softball for Title IX

Cut Golf, Mens and Womens.

We really have a shot at being a decent team. The sport is growing rapidly including in Virginia itself thanks to our friends in the hotbed near Baltimore. Of course, we HAVE womens lax and they often underperform, sooooo...
02-24-2016 04:44 PM
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ttgwm02 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
BigTribe, a womens team would only be necessary if we added the sport. Richmond dodged that problem by cutting soccer. The move has paid off extremely well for them.
02-24-2016 05:42 PM
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soccerguy315 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
men's soccer has made the NCAA tournament 15 times I believe...

maybe those of you so quick to cut it would like to compare that number to some of the other men's teams that call W&M home?

edit: and to be clear, I was not an athlete at W&M... in case there is any confusion from my user name.
(This post was last modified: 02-24-2016 07:08 PM by soccerguy315.)
02-24-2016 07:06 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
Softball would require field space that we don't currently have. I like lacrosse, but what does it bring other than potential for success in a sport most schools don't have?
02-24-2016 09:08 PM
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wanm65 Online
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
Never happen

If you can fully endow both the men's team-all costs & a women's team of equal size & costs-all costs.

40-50 million sounds about right.
02-24-2016 09:42 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
(02-24-2016 04:37 PM)BigTribe2 Wrote:  Besides the money, you would need a commensurate women's team with the same $$$ support to
balance the Title 9 equation. Since you can forget about getting men's soccer dropped---it has too long and too celebrated a history and place in W&M athletics (as well as avid soccer supporters in the athletic department...way up in the A.D.)----I don't know what other men's sports on a par with lacrosse could
be dropped.

Women's softball would be a commensurate addition to the addition of men's lacrosse program, but good luck on funding that. People bring up men's gymnastics but forget that one---the $$$ that costs is a pittance
and would not come close to balancing the Title 9 requirements.

Taylor Reveley is all for men's lacrosse because of the type of students it attracts and has said so at alumni gatherings when asked, but he also, in the next sentence, tells you Title 9 and $$$ makes it impossible.

And TRIII is exactly right about that. Having a lacrosse team would signal a very positive (imo) cultural change at the school. I realize that men's lax would be very difficult to obtain and would cost a lot of money but I think it may be the single most positive thing our athletic department could choose to pursue.
02-24-2016 11:15 PM
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soccerguy315 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
what does that mean?

rich out of state students that pay full price?
02-24-2016 11:40 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
(02-24-2016 09:08 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  Softball would require field space that we don't currently have. I like lacrosse, but what does it bring other than potential for success in a sport most schools don't have?

Could Plumeri not work?
02-25-2016 12:58 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
No it wouldn't.

You can find space for a softball field. It takes up a lot less space than baseball. Put it where the old Busch Field is.
02-25-2016 07:08 AM
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WM Beancounter Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
Promote the women's crew program from club status. The club has existed since the late 80s with paid coaches, an existing boathouse, and a track record of success. Much easier than starting a new sport from scratch.

Uva, and many other schools, already have this model of a women's varsity crew program sharing facilities with a men's club rowing program.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2016 09:38 AM by WM Beancounter.)
02-25-2016 08:30 AM
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ttgwm02 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
(02-24-2016 09:08 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  Softball would require field space that we don't currently have. I like lacrosse, but what does it bring other than potential for success in a sport most schools don't have?

A chance to be a truly national player, rather than a regional player who occasionally makes a little noise, in less than ten years. And to do so without sacrificing anything academically.

The Ivies are on the decline due to the absence of athletic scholarships and the increase in roster sizes of the ACC / Big Ten teams. Even Cornell, which has been the class of the Ivy League the last decade, is now struggling due (in my opinion) to a poor head coaching hire. We have better weather, scholarships, and really strong academics. That's a pretty easy sell when the Ivies are no longer winning national championships.

The sport is growing and unlike soccer, there aren't 200-plus colleges with D-1 teams. The number of high schools offering lacrosse has grown tremendously, but the number of D1 programs has not. Right now there are 58. That results in a surplus of talented players, which is how you see a High Point beating Virginia, or Hofstra beating North Carolina.

If we start lacrosse, and join the CAA, we immediately become the most attractive program in the conference. Towson, Delaware, Drexel, Hofstra, Fairfield and UMass all struggle to recruit against the Ivies and the Patriot League because frankly, most lacrosse parents want to send their kids to stronger schools. We wont have that problem. So in my opinion, we also immediately become a player for every kid with grades that our CAA rivals are recruiting, and also for every kid currently headed to the Patriot League.

Furthermore, lacrosse by and large attracts a demographic which is favorable to our current admissions standards. So with the exception of the very small number of kids that Denver, Virginia, UNC, Ohio State, and a few other schools are able to take with really low grades, we would be able to compete right away for anyone we wanted.

W+M is uniquely positioned to draw off kids who would otherwise be 2nd or 3rd line recruits at ACC and Big Ten schools and put them on the field immediately. Richmond has done the same thing. We offer an added bonus for Virginia kids, which is in-state tuition. And, we are a national top 50 school, which Richmond is not.

Plus, we could very likely secure "home and homes" from Day 1 with UNC, Duke, Virginia, Johns Hopkins, and Maryland. Sure, we'd lose big the first few years, but we'd build the relationship and these matchups would draw fans from Richmond, Norfolk and perhaps even Northern Virginia.

Finally, our name recognition and the generally low pay of D1 lacrosse coaching jobs (Nick Myers of Ohio State, for example, makes less than $100,000) means that we could attract an experienced head coach from a quality program (think Kevin Cassesse from Lehigh, Mike Murphy from Penn, Mike Daily from Tufts or Steve Koudelka from Lynchburg College) immediately. So unlike Michigan, which hired its club coach largely out of loyalty, we wouldn't be stuck with a poor hire.

Oh...and generally, on this thread I always get the "we will never compete with UVA" comment. Tell that to Richmond, who lost to Virginia by a goal last year. Virginia is currently on a downward spiral, and early recruiting means that they are likely stuck in it for at least the next 3-4 years. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Richmond become the best program in the state in a year or two.

Plus...right now, we have two D1 programs between us on 64...Hampton and Richmond. Do we really want to be the odd man out?
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2016 09:36 AM by ttgwm02.)
02-25-2016 09:23 AM
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WMSportsBlog Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
(02-25-2016 09:23 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  
(02-24-2016 09:08 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  Softball would require field space that we don't currently have. I like lacrosse, but what does it bring other than potential for success in a sport most schools don't have?

A chance to be a truly national player, rather than a regional player who occasionally makes a little noise, in less than ten years. And to do so without sacrificing anything academically.

The Ivies are on the decline due to the absence of athletic scholarships and the increase in roster sizes of the ACC / Big Ten teams. Even Cornell, which has been the class of the Ivy League the last decade, is now struggling due (in my opinion) to a poor head coaching hire. We have better weather, scholarships, and really strong academics. That's a pretty easy sell when the Ivies are no longer winning national championships.

The sport is growing and unlike soccer, there aren't 200-plus colleges with D-1 teams. The number of high schools offering lacrosse has grown tremendously, but the number of D1 programs has not. Right now there are 58. That results in a surplus of talented players, which is how you see a High Point beating Virginia, or Hofstra beating North Carolina.

If we start lacrosse, and join the CAA, we immediately become the most attractive program in the conference. Towson, Delaware, Drexel, Hofstra, Fairfield and UMass all struggle to recruit against the Ivies and the Patriot League because frankly, most lacrosse parents want to send their kids to stronger schools. We wont have that problem. So in my opinion, we also immediately become a player for every kid headed to the Patriot League.

Furthermore, lacrosse by and large attracts a demographic which is favorable to our current admissions standards. So with the exception of the very small number of kids that Denver, Virginia, UNC, Ohio State, and a few other schools are able to take with really low grades, we would be able to compete right away for anyone we wanted.

W+M is uniquely positioned to draw off kids who would otherwise be 2nd or 3rd line recruits at ACC and Big Ten schools and put them on the field immediately. Richmond has done the same thing. We offer an added bonus for Virginia kids, which is in-state tuition. And, we are a national top 50 school, which Richmond is not.

Plus, we could very likely secure "home and homes" from Day 1 with UNC, Virginia, Johns Hopkins, and Maryland. Sure, we'd lose big the first few years, but we'd build the relationship and these matchups would draw fans from Richmond, Norfolk and perhaps even Northern Virginia.

Finally, our name recognition and the generally low pay of D1 lacrosse coaching jobs (Nick Myers of Ohio State, for example, makes less than $100,000) means that we could attract an experienced head coach from a quality program (think Kevin Cassesse from Lehigh, Mike Murphy from Penn, Mike Daily from Tufts or Steve Koudelka from Lynchburg College) immediately. So unlike Michigan, which hired its club coach largely out of loyalty, we wouldn't be stuck with a poor hire.

+1 Here here! Where would lax play, Zable? Or where women's lax currently plays. Would be more fun to do it in Zable and the team would likely have a much larger student turnout.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2016 09:26 AM by WMSportsBlog.)
02-25-2016 09:26 AM
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ttgwm02 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
Zable would be ideal but would require adding lacrosse lines to the football field, which (probably wont) happen.

I actually think attendance would be pretty high if games were at Zable or even at Busch. Saturday day game on Zable against Johns Hopkins in early March in Williamsburg? Give me a break. No brainer versus the library. Plus, even when the games are broadcast they are only two hours. So its much less hassle than football.
02-25-2016 09:51 AM
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Tribester Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
I always thought it strange that we didn't have lacrosse when I was there in the early 90's. William and Mary is MADE for having a good lacrosse program (great academics, east coast/midatlantic location, strong close by natural rivals, etc.) It is a no brainer...all it takes is $$$. Talk about a campaign for the bold!
02-25-2016 10:11 AM
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tribemike09 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
I think having a lacrosse team would be awesome, but if it would truly take $40M to $50M, I'd rather see that money go towards basketball. I think that would be enough to build an indoor practice facility and upgrade Kaplan. This would not only support men's basketball, but also women's basketball, which seems much improved this year. Also, I think the Athletics 10 year plan released last spring indicated that a new indoor practice facility could also support volleyball and some ancillary academic/sports related offices. If we did have the money, I wouldn't at all be upset using it for lacrosse though.
02-25-2016 12:17 PM
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ttgwm02 Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
(02-25-2016 12:17 PM)tribemike09 Wrote:  I think having a lacrosse team would be awesome, but if it would truly take $40M to $50M, I'd rather see that money go towards basketball. I think that would be enough to build an indoor practice facility and upgrade Kaplan. This would not only support men's basketball, but also women's basketball, which seems much improved this year. Also, I think the Athletics 10 year plan released last spring indicated that a new indoor practice facility could also support volleyball and some ancillary academic/sports related offices. If we did have the money, I wouldn't at all be upset using it for lacrosse though.

It wouldn't. I spoke with El Presidente and he said that $10-$15M would "get it done". Might not be fully funded (e.g., offer 10 scholarships instead of 13) but it would get the ball rolling.
02-25-2016 12:25 PM
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WM Beancounter Offline
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RE: Annual mens lacrosse plea
(02-25-2016 12:17 PM)tribemike09 Wrote:  Also, I think the Athletics 10 year plan released last spring indicated that a new indoor practice facility could also support volleyball and some ancillary academic/sports related offices.

On a slightly related note, we just fired our volleyball coach yesterday.
02-25-2016 01:59 PM
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