(11-01-2016 06:44 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 06:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 05:56 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 05:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Houston parting ways with the rest of the SWC refugees had nothing to do with not being able to agree on the types of schools to invite to a rebuilt SWC. The only other private schools that could potentially join were BYU, Tulsa, and Tulane. There was mutual distrust among them and Houston got a better offer so they took it.

The conference realignment environment was much different then. BYU and company were occupied in expanding their WAC brand. On the other side of the country the Great Midwest and Metro had basketball on the brain and we're looking to mend fences and build a basketball mega conference. Cincy, Louisville, Memphis, Tulane, and Southern Miss could have easily gone to a rebuilt SWC along with Tulsa but playing basketball with UAB, Charlotte, USF, DePaul, Marquette, and St Louis was more attractive and with their affiliates and the two upgraded programs they could still have a football league.

(Sigh).....As someone who was there. The WAC didn't recruit the SWC leftovers. Rice, SMU and TCU approachrd the WAC about membership. Tulsa and Tulane asked for WAC invites as well...I have a knee jerk reaction to correcting revisionist history.
Cheers!

I don't get what you find objectionable about my post. The WAC schools weren't interested in joining the SWC because their league was stable and they liked their conference mates. The football schools in the Great Midwest and Metro were focused on their merger and building a basketball empire and SWC football didn't move the needle for the schools that mattered (Cincy, L'ville, & Memphis).

Houston was offered a lifeboat out and they took it. The other 3 took the best offer available to them in the WAC, who chose to extend Tulsa, San Jose St, and UNLV invitations at the same time.

Where exactly am I erring from your recollection of the turn of events?

Sorry for being harsh bro. My contention was this quote "BYU and company were interested in expanding their WAC brand."--they weren't. They had been rejecting UNLV, San Jose St, Utah St, NM St and Tulsa for years. Not to mention all the FB schools of the Big West. The SWC broke up and the 3 privates asked the WAC for invites. Tulsa, Tulane, UNLV and Nevada asked as well as the other usual suspects like Utah St and NM St. The WAC relented and allowed the 3 SWC schools in. It was a very close vote with many WAC schools voting no and concessions were made allowing for UNLV and San Jose St to join the Pacific division and Tulsa to even out the Mountain division. Tulane and Nevada were rejected. (All the front range schools were against adding anyone at all) New Mexico wasn't a no vote, but they did not vote. Former UNM AD Rudy Davalos--who left Houston a couple years before--is a great source for info on this. 2 years later the front range schools and Utah and BYU wanted out.....So BYU and company did not want to expand their conference brand at all. They ended up doing it and immediately regretted that decision that destroyed them. Another tidbit: The WAC had already signed a 5 year tv deal in 1994 for 10 schools that ran from 1996 through 2000. It left open the possibility of a bump with a CCG, but not a bump for adding 6 schools. Everything else you wrote was spot on.
Cheers!

Gotcha. Thanks for the info on the breakdown of the vote. I had never seen a breakdown of how exactly all of that transpired. I guess what I more aptly meant when I said expanding the WAC brand was building up and promoting the WAC brand, becoming more viable and getting on more TV sets. I imagine for some, reaching into Texas was going achieve that but as you describe, it diluted the rivalries and in the end left the schools at the core disatisfied.

You wouldn't happen to know where all of the yes votes came from do you?

Just cueing this one up for 2025 when the B12 GOR expires:

Rice, Tulane, Texas, Kansas, Iowa State, Buffalo, and Connecticut.

Until then, MWC would do quite nicely.

I still think the Pac 10 missed an opportunity by not taking the remaining SWC schools:

North - UW, WSU, Oregon, OSU, Cal, Stanford, TCU, SMU
South - Rice, Houston, Arizona, Arizona State, UCLA, USC, Utah, Colorado

Once those four schools fell out of a "power" conference there was pretty much no turning back. Losing Colorado would be a huge blow to the Big 8/12, which either sends them to the WAC for BYU, or east for Louisville.

It's also possible Tulsa might have joined C-USA instead of the WAC, or that the Big West would have disbanded in 1996 if the WAC needed to replace Big 12-bound BYU.


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(11-01-2016 08:25 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 06:44 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 06:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 05:56 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-01-2016 05:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Houston parting ways with the rest of the SWC refugees had nothing to do with not being able to agree on the types of schools to invite to a rebuilt SWC. The only other private schools that could potentially join were BYU, Tulsa, and Tulane. There was mutual distrust among them and Houston got a better offer so they took it.

The conference realignment environment was much different then. BYU and company were occupied in expanding their WAC brand. On the other side of the country the Great Midwest and Metro had basketball on the brain and we're looking to mend fences and build a basketball mega conference. Cincy, Louisville, Memphis, Tulane, and Southern Miss could have easily gone to a rebuilt SWC along with Tulsa but playing basketball with UAB, Charlotte, USF, DePaul, Marquette, and St Louis was more attractive and with their affiliates and the two upgraded programs they could still have a football league.

(Sigh).....As someone who was there. The WAC didn't recruit the SWC leftovers. Rice, SMU and TCU approachrd the WAC about membership. Tulsa and Tulane asked for WAC invites as well...I have a knee jerk reaction to correcting revisionist history.
Cheers!

I don't get what you find objectionable about my post. The WAC schools weren't interested in joining the SWC because their league was stable and they liked their conference mates. The football schools in the Great Midwest and Metro were focused on their merger and building a basketball empire and SWC football didn't move the needle for the schools that mattered (Cincy, L'ville, & Memphis).

Houston was offered a lifeboat out and they took it. The other 3 took the best offer available to them in the WAC, who chose to extend Tulsa, San Jose St, and UNLV invitations at the same time.

Where exactly am I erring from your recollection of the turn of events?

Sorry for being harsh bro. My contention was this quote "BYU and company were interested in expanding their WAC brand."--they weren't. They had been rejecting UNLV, San Jose St, Utah St, NM St and Tulsa for years. Not to mention all the FB schools of the Big West. The SWC broke up and the 3 privates asked the WAC for invites. Tulsa, Tulane, UNLV and Nevada asked as well as the other usual suspects like Utah St and NM St. The WAC relented and allowed the 3 SWC schools in. It was a very close vote with many WAC schools voting no and concessions were made allowing for UNLV and San Jose St to join the Pacific division and Tulsa to even out the Mountain division. Tulane and Nevada were rejected. (All the front range schools were against adding anyone at all) New Mexico wasn't a no vote, but they did not vote. Former UNM AD Rudy Davalos--who left Houston a couple years before--is a great source for info on this. 2 years later the front range schools and Utah and BYU wanted out.....So BYU and company did not want to expand their conference brand at all. They ended up doing it and immediately regretted that decision that destroyed them. Another tidbit: The WAC had already signed a 5 year tv deal in 1994 for 10 schools that ran from 1996 through 2000. It left open the possibility of a bump with a CCG, but not a bump for adding 6 schools. Everything else you wrote was spot on.
Cheers!

Gotcha. Thanks for the info on the breakdown of the vote. I had never seen a breakdown of how exactly all of that transpired. I guess what I more aptly meant when I said expanding the WAC brand was building up and promoting the WAC brand, becoming more viable and getting on more TV sets. I imagine for some, reaching into Texas was going achieve that but as you describe, it diluted the rivalries and in the end left the schools at the core disatisfied.

You wouldn't happen to know where all of the yes votes came from do you?

Off the top of my head I remember this:
UTEP: Voted yes (wanted the Texas schools
Hawaii: Yes (They wanted UNLV & San Jose St though)
San Diego St: Yes (Wanted UNLV)
Fresno St: Yes (Wanted San Jose St & UNLV)
Air Force: No
Colorado St: No
Wyoming: No
Here's where it gets murky, BYU/Utah were lockstep and though Utah was a "no" before the vote, BYU gave an "ok" to expansion, for whatever reason, Utah then aligned with BYU which allowed it to go through. New Mexico took their cue from Utah and BYU and didn't protest, but didn't official endorse expansion by voting. The SWC breakup and SWC 3 approaching them took the conference by surprise. They rushed things, and it turned into the greatest fiascos in modern conference history (BE and Big 12 withstanding) when the Denver Airport meeting took place in summer of 1998. Maybe the Big 12 will one up the WAC and Big East?
Cheers!

(11-01-2016 09:09 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I still think the Pac 10 missed an opportunity by not taking the remaining SWC schools:

North - UW, WSU, Oregon, OSU, Cal, Stanford, TCU, SMU
South - Rice, Houston, Arizona, Arizona State, UCLA, USC, Utah, Colorado

Once those four schools fell out of a "power" conference there was pretty much no turning back. Losing Colorado would be a huge blow to the Big 8/12, which either sends them to the WAC for BYU, or east for Louisville.

It's also possible Tulsa might have joined C-USA instead of the WAC, or that the Big West would have disbanded in 1996 if the WAC needed to replace Big 12-bound BYU.


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I was a board op at a sports radio station as a kid. The big talk in the early 90's was always Texas and Colorado to the PAC 10 and BYU and Air Force or even BYU and New Mexico to the Big 8. Louisville was happy as an Indy back then and lost their coach when they decided to join CUSA. Louisville wasn't considered a major conference candidate back then either. That came a little later after they had success in CUSA and the new football stadium was built etc. Louisville was always thought of as a basketball school in those days.
Cheers!

I've never heard of Tulane trying to get in the WAC. The SWC, yes, they were even up for a formal vote. I don't know why they would want to join the WAC when they were forming C-USA; Tulane had a strong basketball program then. Also, Houston was holding out for the invite, it didn't come before the other SWC schools left for the WAC. There was even a joke in Sports Illustrated that Houston was the last one left in the SWC and they'd win it every year so it should be called the Big Easy Conference. Cheesy indeed.

(11-02-2016 12:39 AM)esayem Wrote:  I've never heard of Tulane trying to get in the WAC. The SWC, yes, they were even up for a formal vote. I don't know why they would want to join the WAC when they were forming C-USA; Tulane had a strong basketball program then. Also, Houston was holding out for the invite, it didn't come before the other SWC schools left for the WAC. There was even a joke in Sports Illustrated that Houston was the last one left in the SWC and they'd win it every year so it should be called the Big Easy Conference. Cheesy indeed.

Houston and A&M had tentative offers from the SEC then. A&M got cold feet as it thought it couldn't depart from the Horns, leaving Houston scrambling for CUSA. Houston was the prize of the remaining SWC schools then.

Imagine Houston and A&M in the SEC now. Mizzou probably would still be in the Big 12 and a mystery school, UNM or Colo St, would be also. The Big 12 wasn't going to pick up a Big East school as it did 20 years later.

Where would many schools that were 1A be at if they were not forced by reclassification back in 1981? MVC would still be an FBS conference today.

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Southern Illinois
Wichita State
New Mexico State
Tulsa
West Texas A&M

Only Tulsa, New Mexico State and Wichita State stayed in FBS. West Texas A&M met the requirements to stay FBS. But, losing half your conference mates in the forced reclassification was bad news. They should give a grandfather claused back then to keep Southern and MVC as FBS. Attrition could have caused the schools depart for another conference in the future. Maybe Wichita State and Lamar may have kept football? McNeese State, UTA and a couple of others may have kept football going as well.


Where would some of these schools wind up today? WAC as an FBS conference still with West Texas A&M, Wichita State, New Mexico State, Southern Illinois, Illinois State, Lamar, UTA, Indiana State, McNeese State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State and Missouri State and Northern Iowa? A Conference that stretches from the Mississippi River to the west coast for all sports. Grand Canyon U. may still be stuck in D2, and the Great West still in operation with D2 upgrades.

(11-02-2016 12:39 AM)esayem Wrote:  I've never heard of Tulane trying to get in the WAC. The SWC, yes, they were even up for a formal vote. I don't know why they would want to join the WAC when they were forming C-USA; Tulane had a strong basketball program then. Also, Houston was holding out for the invite, it didn't come before the other SWC schools left for the WAC. There was even a joke in Sports Illustrated that Houston was the last one left in the SWC and they'd win it every year so it should be called the Big Easy Conference. Cheesy indeed.

Tulane approached WAC commissioner Benson in 1994. It's all over the Internet. Google WAC 16 articles. I heard about it in Texas at the time it was happening so I know. By the way, Tulsa is another one of those schools "forming CUSA" who stopped forming and joined the WAC.
Cheers!

(11-02-2016 02:32 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Where would many schools that were 1A be at if they were not forced by reclassification back in 1981? MVC would still be an FBS conference today.

Drake
Illinois State
Indiana State
Southern Illinois
Wichita State
New Mexico State
Tulsa
West Texas A&M

I think it would have ended up like the Pacific Coast/Big West and schools would have dropped football e.g. Pacific, Fullerton, etc. or dropped down to 1-AA anyway.

(11-02-2016 08:56 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-02-2016 12:39 AM)esayem Wrote:  I've never heard of Tulane trying to get in the WAC. The SWC, yes, they were even up for a formal vote. I don't know why they would want to join the WAC when they were forming C-USA; Tulane had a strong basketball program then. Also, Houston was holding out for the invite, it didn't come before the other SWC schools left for the WAC. There was even a joke in Sports Illustrated that Houston was the last one left in the SWC and they'd win it every year so it should be called the Big Easy Conference. Cheesy indeed.

Tulane approached WAC commissioner Benson in 1994. It's all over the Internet. Google WAC 16 articles. I heard about it in Texas at the time it was happening so I know. By the way, Tulsa is another one of those schools "forming CUSA" who stopped forming and joined the WAC.
Cheers!

I found this: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/33995...tml?pg=all

That just says the WAC would consider Louisville, Memphis, and Tulane in a 16 team scenario. I have basketball books from 93/94/95, and every year talk of forming an east of the Mississippi all-sports conference with Metro and Great Midwest members is mentioned. Hell, there was talk of the Atlantic 10 absorbing the Metro schools. Louisville had all the cards (pardon that pun) and no reason to look out west, neither did Tulane for that matter because they were attached to Louisville.