been away, but yes colleges and college athletics is a business....BIG BUSINESS!!!!

(04-28-2019 12:08 PM)94computerguy Wrote:  Late to the argument, but a few thoughts:
1) Colleges are not businesses. There are valuable business practices here, to be sure, but JMU is a state institution with a mission to educate people. Remembering that mission should, hopefully, guide the rest of the decisions.
2) Comparing basketball ticket sales to big-city schools is a fool's game. GMU sells more tickets because there are 1.5 million people within 10 miles of the Patriot Center, most of whom are happy to drop a few bucks for family entertainment. That's not gonna happen in Harrisonburg, especially with UVA 40 miles east. That's going to make revenue decisions a lot more complicated.
3) What *is* the goal of college athletics in general and JMU athletics in particular? Student excitement? Profit? Academic profile? Overall university profile?

Again, I don't have the answers to these questions, but I think the assumption that JMU is in the business of selling degrees is incorrect. (Which is good, because if it was, the argument for athletics would go to zero as there is already more demand for the product than there is supply.)

Prior to Larranaga, JMU always had more attendance (except the JMU game) than GMU.

Men's College basketball and College Football are buisnesses.

The goal for Men's basketball ultimately is to be profitable, and short time goal should be to cut the loss significantly - although I will say with the new arena coming up we may have blown well over a Million in gate receipts alone based on management of program.

(04-27-2019 07:25 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  

(04-27-2019 03:03 AM)NJDuke97 Wrote:  

(04-26-2019 09:56 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  

(04-25-2019 12:57 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(04-25-2019 07:49 AM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  Men’s basketball is more important...by far. So it needs to be treated as such.
There is no measurable ROI on a lacrosse championship or soccer elite eight.

Our athletic department doesn't agree with you & I'm glad they don't.

So if you don’t agree, what is the ROI on the Olympic sports?
The JMU athletic department investment in 15 Olympic sports is $13.1 million. The revenue is $0.9 million.

I feel like no matter how well those sports teams perform, they will never elevate the JMU athletics program. Nice to have, but not need to have.
For the record, I enjoy participating in baseball, softball, and golf more than any other sports, but I have no misconception that they drive the bus for NCAA athletics. They are irrelevant in NCAA athletic department success.
Men’s basketball can fuel and fund Olympic sports.
Olympic sports cannot fuel and fund men’s basketball.

I’m not debating that hoops is at a different level and can drive the bus in terms of conference upgrades and influx of revenue (ie Wichita State hoops) I just think you may have a one dimensional old school view of the Roi. Sure revenue in terms of gate at the arena and ncaa units represents real and big time $ and the ceiling in terms of exposure (assuming you are one of the few mid majors who really makes an impact in March) is significant but for a lot smaller investment the exposure via TV for playing in championship/national events ie softball super regionals, ncaa women’s lacrosse final four etc is very beneficial to Jmu. Not just tv- social media impressions, and subsequent coverage after the event is over. Not to mention that this brands Jmu with different demographics so successful Olympic sports at a national level do make an impact and the field is a lot less crowded than the mid major basketball field so it’s easier to make an impact and sustain it.

So what is the new school ROI? I would like to know.
I see 15 JMU Olympic sports and many have had great success. Combined they pulled in $0.9 million in revenue which includes direct donations to those sports. That is an average of $67k per sport. Some make a little more, some make a little less. If this is what we get during great success, is that called new school ROI?

The money is real. $51.7 million invested annually
Jeff Bourne says “money matters”
The Duke Club solicits our donations to close the gap on funding
Shouldn’t we be concerned about how the money is managed?
There are Schools with far smaller budgets that get much higher ROI due to savvy allocation of funds and focus.

as others have said, there are other missions beside the benjamins.

believe it or not, up here in NOVA land, where they all know I am a huge JMU guy, I have a ton of friends who have made comments to me about our success in W Lax, W Softball and M Soccer. All who have kids participating in those sports at the youth level, not JMU alums and who have taken notice. these non revenue sports promote the school and brand to other niches. while hoops and football move the revenue needle and are what I follow, many have other interests.

" My daughter and I watched the JMU lax natty championship, I didnt realize JMU was so good"

" My son and I saw where JMU made the Soccer final 8, he now wants to look at the school"

"Your softball team is really good"

etc, etc.

As NJ97 stated, we maybe getting a better roi on building our brand by "investing" in these lesser known sports. Less investment, less comp, more success, increased branding.

“Branding” as an ROI measurement for Olympic sports is fine and dandy, until you consider the Cox bill.

The Cox bill regulates the money that can be spent on athletics, and essentially mandates that athletics become more self-sustaining financially. The only real way to do that is by growing the Football and Basketball revenue bases, or potentially painful cuts. I’d prefer to see the revenue base grow, and see us compete at the top level in all sports.

The chicken little “we can’t hope to compete” mentality in MBB puzzles me, especially given past competitiveness and success (Lefty era and prior).

Does JMU sponsor a men's lacrosse program?

A brilliant strategic decision that many on this thread endorsed 10 years ago

(04-29-2019 10:21 AM)JMURocks Wrote:  “Branding” as an ROI measurement for Olympic sports is fine and dandy, until you consider the Cox bill.

The Cox bill regulates the money that can be spent on athletics, and essentially mandates that athletics become more self-sustaining financially. The only real way to do that is by growing the Football and Basketball revenue bases, or potentially painful cuts. I’d prefer to see the revenue base grow, and see us compete at the top level in all sports.

The chicken little “we can’t hope to compete” mentality in MBB puzzles me, especially given past competitiveness and success (Lefty era and prior).

Not saying Jmu can’t compete in MBB just providing some context for why it is more difficult to compete there. It should be the highest priority in the athletics program- that is becoming relevant again in Men’s hoops- it’s just not as easy as throwing money at it or even one coach- it’s a process And proven difficult for Universities especially at the mid major level to field nationally competitive programs in both Men’s basketball and football.

(04-29-2019 11:27 AM)Dukeman2 Wrote:  Does JMU sponsor a men's lacrosse program?

A brilliant strategic decision that many on this thread endorsed 10 years ago

if you talk to the jmu athletic department, they agree with you. need to raise more money and drop baseball or soccer. if you plan on going fbs, it gets even more difficult and you need to add another womens sport in addition to dropping soccer or baseball. when you are 60% female, tough to add another mens sport. But it is easy to be brilliant when running an athletic department from your keyboard

Richmond has billions and they dropped soccer to add lax.

(04-29-2019 09:19 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  

(04-27-2019 07:25 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  

(04-27-2019 03:03 AM)NJDuke97 Wrote:  

(04-26-2019 09:56 PM)Hart Foundation Wrote:  

(04-25-2019 12:57 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Our athletic department doesn't agree with you & I'm glad they don't.

So if you don’t agree, what is the ROI on the Olympic sports?
The JMU athletic department investment in 15 Olympic sports is $13.1 million. The revenue is $0.9 million.

I feel like no matter how well those sports teams perform, they will never elevate the JMU athletics program. Nice to have, but not need to have.
For the record, I enjoy participating in baseball, softball, and golf more than any other sports, but I have no misconception that they drive the bus for NCAA athletics. They are irrelevant in NCAA athletic department success.
Men’s basketball can fuel and fund Olympic sports.
Olympic sports cannot fuel and fund men’s basketball.

I’m not debating that hoops is at a different level and can drive the bus in terms of conference upgrades and influx of revenue (ie Wichita State hoops) I just think you may have a one dimensional old school view of the Roi. Sure revenue in terms of gate at the arena and ncaa units represents real and big time $ and the ceiling in terms of exposure (assuming you are one of the few mid majors who really makes an impact in March) is significant but for a lot smaller investment the exposure via TV for playing in championship/national events ie softball super regionals, ncaa women’s lacrosse final four etc is very beneficial to Jmu. Not just tv- social media impressions, and subsequent coverage after the event is over. Not to mention that this brands Jmu with different demographics so successful Olympic sports at a national level do make an impact and the field is a lot less crowded than the mid major basketball field so it’s easier to make an impact and sustain it.

So what is the new school ROI? I would like to know.
I see 15 JMU Olympic sports and many have had great success. Combined they pulled in $0.9 million in revenue which includes direct donations to those sports. That is an average of $67k per sport. Some make a little more, some make a little less. If this is what we get during great success, is that called new school ROI?

The money is real. $51.7 million invested annually
Jeff Bourne says “money matters”
The Duke Club solicits our donations to close the gap on funding
Shouldn’t we be concerned about how the money is managed?
There are Schools with far smaller budgets that get much higher ROI due to savvy allocation of funds and focus.

as others have said, there are other missions beside the benjamins.

believe it or not, up here in NOVA land, where they all know I am a huge JMU guy, I have a ton of friends who have made comments to me about our success in W Lax, W Softball and M Soccer. All who have kids participating in those sports at the youth level, not JMU alums and who have taken notice. these non revenue sports promote the school and brand to other niches. while hoops and football move the revenue needle and are what I follow, many have other interests.

" My daughter and I watched the JMU lax natty championship, I didnt realize JMU was so good"

" My son and I saw where JMU made the Soccer final 8, he now wants to look at the school"

"Your softball team is really good"

etc, etc.

As NJ97 stated, we maybe getting a better roi on building our brand by "investing" in these lesser known sports. Less investment, less comp, more success, increased branding.

I'm excited about Softball, like the success of Women's Lacrosse and Men's soccer, but I've not heard word one about it anywhere but on here. While cool now that's it's on cable I think I have seen a combined 1.5 events.

There is no ROI on the olympic sports which is fine, but that does not mean it makes sense for Men's basketball to loose $2,000,000.

I'd be shocked is 2% of the alumni knew about the success of Soccer and Lacrosse last year. What % of the alumni know about JMU's football success? What percent knew about success under Lefty and Lou?

The money has already been spend on athletic facilities (I was and am all for it for future university PR). Future opportunity to grow all JMU sports is in place.

Debating if the current admin can or can't will or won't is moot at this point. Doing so is

Nothing programatic within the athletic dept. is going to change with this crew. Nothing programatic ever was going to change (conference)(scheduling) with this crew.


King is leaving JMU with great facilities and an adequate athletic budget. Whatever happens won't come from King/Bourne.

Who is next is what matters.

(04-29-2019 01:37 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  The money has already been spend on athletic facilities (I was and am all for it for future university PR). Future opportunity to grow all JMU sports is in place.

Debating if the current admin can or can't will or won't is moot at this point. Doing so is

Nothing programatic within the athletic dept. is going to change with this crew. Nothing programatic ever was going to change (conference)(scheduling) with this crew.


King is leaving JMU with great facilities and an adequate athletic budget. Whatever happens won't come from King/Bourne.

Who is next is what matters.

I think it's more of an Alger and King thing versus Bourne and King.

(04-29-2019 01:41 PM)Dukester Wrote:  

(04-29-2019 01:37 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  The money has already been spend on athletic facilities (I was and am all for it for future university PR). Future opportunity to grow all JMU sports is in place.

Debating if the current admin can or can't will or won't is moot at this point. Doing so is

Nothing programatic within the athletic dept. is going to change with this crew. Nothing programatic ever was going to change (conference)(scheduling) with this crew.


King is leaving JMU with great facilities and an adequate athletic budget. Whatever happens won't come from King/Bourne.

Who is next is what matters.

I think it's more of an Alger and King thing versus Bourne and King.

I think King and Bourne will be gone by the time any Big12>AAC>G5 shakeup takes place.

This is why I think we should be worried about who is up next. A weak AD i.e. an Alger interviewed AD and we are screwed.

Another VP of ALLEVERYTHING aka "El President" like Charlie King that sees the value in growing JMU athletics and tells Alger what to think about athletics (a la the CoAs in place now) is not a slam dunk.

Alger being involved in athletics in any way besides attending games with cowboy hats on backwards while being diverse, we are screwed.