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Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
So I was looking through some old thread and came across one about Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future . I did a quick internet search to see if anything new had popped up but nothing had. I did find an interesting article by College Crosse (an SB Nation affiliate). It talks about the difficulty of scheduling with both Hopkins and Navy in conferences and the loss of playing a long time rival (they've met 90 times).

They speculate about more schools adding lacrosse and the implications of that.

"As more schools add D1 lacrosse, things like Hopkins not playing Navy this year will continue to happen more frequently, so it doesn’t make sense to get all worked up about the inevitable. Indeed, I don’t think it is crazy to think schools like American, George Washington, George Mason, LaSalle, all get a men’s lacrosse program in the next 5-7 years, which would cause a major shake-up in college lacrosse. You may think its far-fetched, but all four schools have the right ingredients to add a men’s lacrosse program: they are all in talent rich areas, they each already have a women’s lacrosse program, they each sponsor more women’s sports than men’s sports, & none of them have a football program."

You could certainly see the creation and/or expansion of conference. The trickle down effect on some of the smaller conferences could be devistating.

"You could very well see an Atlantic 10 conference in men’s lacrosse in the next 5-10 years, if George Washington, George Mason, or LaSalle added a men’s lacrosse program. There are already four natural Atlantic 10 teams with D1 men’s lacrosse programs Richmond, UMass, St. Joe’s, & (in 2019) St. Bonaventure; the addition of one more A-10 team plus an associate member (maybe Cleveland St.) would give the Atlantic 10 six teams, and an automatic qualifier. The impact of the A-10 adding a conference would be significant, as conferences like the NEC, CAA, & SoCon would be affected if St. Joe’s, UMass, & or Richmond, respectively, left to form an A-10.

One of the most interesting parts of this article discussed how it made "financial sense" to add a lacrosse program. With schools tuition continuing to increase, less aid from their respective states and decreasing enrollment, St. Bonaventure athletic director Tim Kenney wanted to add the program.

""“Yeah, there are start-up costs and there’s some scholarship money, but it’s not a lot and its distributed among the team. “But, in exchange, we get 40 to 50 new students that we might not normally have and if they stay four years that’s a significant financial influx.”"

Overall, I just thought this was an interesting article about a quickly growing NCAA sport. I suggest you read the article, it's a good read.
11-12-2017 01:04 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
It does seem like Atlantic-10 lacrosse is basically inevitable at this point. Even if no other A10 school adds it in the near future I could see the four lacrosse schools pushing the conference to sponsor by picking up two independents as affiliate members just for the easier path to an AQ bid. The AAC is launching a women's lacrosse conference using the same mechanism.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2017 03:24 PM by Bogg.)
11-12-2017 03:23 PM
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jdgaucho Online
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RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.
11-12-2017 03:48 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
Remember that LaSalle had a run at football some years back, and it flopped. My money is on a repeat performance of that for lacrosse. This is to remain visible as an institution, not just for D1.

It's a small school in a bad part of town and not much on a campus feel. They're sucking wind to St. Joe's, who's getting whipped by Nova.

Philly and the surrounding area have a ton of Catholic schools. Too many. And none of them seem to want to throw in the towel, though all but three or four suffer.
11-12-2017 04:22 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
I file this under "a good problem to have" for Lacrosse.

The sport is growing on the Coasts, especially the Mid-Atlantic and California
11-12-2017 04:41 PM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 04:22 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Remember that LaSalle had a run at football some years back, and it flopped. My money is on a repeat performance of that for lacrosse. This is to remain visible as an institution, not just for D1.

To be fair, and I'm about the furthest one can get from an expert on the topic, but it seems like there are hurdles to overcome in starting up football that just aren't there in lacrosse. Football at that level is a significant expense, while it sounds like lacrosse is a pretty minor expense/can generate a small profit in terms of enrollment numbers without having to be at the very top level of the sport.
11-12-2017 05:00 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

Maybe petition to bring RMAC up for one sport with both men and women's LAX? It could help. You have teams in Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I think they did have a team from one of the Dakota schools at one time.

Man's:
Colorado Mesa
Rockhurst (kansas City Missouri)
Westminster Utah (Salt Lake City)
Adams State
CSU-Pueblo
Maryville

Women's:
Lindenwood
Regis
Colorado Mesa
Fort Lewis
Westminster
Rockhurst
CSU-Pueblo
Oklahoma Baptist]
Adams State
Colorado-Colorado Springs

It might give air force and Denver some close by competition until some more schools out on the west coast starts it.
11-12-2017 05:38 PM
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AZcats Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 05:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

Maybe petition to bring RMAC up for one sport with both men and women's LAX? It could help. You have teams in Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I think they did have a team from one of the Dakota schools at one time.

Man's:
Colorado Mesa
Rockhurst (kansas City Missouri)
Westminster Utah (Salt Lake City)
Adams State
CSU-Pueblo
Maryville

Women's:
Lindenwood
Regis
Colorado Mesa
Fort Lewis
Westminster
Rockhurst
CSU-Pueblo
Oklahoma Baptist]
Adams State
Colorado-Colorado Springs

It might give air force and Denver some close by competition until some more schools out on the west coast starts it.

Stop the D2 hijacking. This is a copy of your post from another thread. The NCAA is not going to bend its rules to add 4 small D2 schools to D1 (Maryville has already left the RMAC, Rockhurst men leaves after the 2018 season; both to the new GLVC lacrosse).
11-12-2017 06:18 PM
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trephin Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 04:41 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I file this under "a good problem to have" for Lacrosse.

The sport is growing on the Coasts, especially the Mid-Atlantic and California

California and The West sure. It's been slowly creeping westward with Denver's success a shining beacon. There's a dearth of D1 schools but it's more active on lower levels at collegiate club and youth levels.

The East Coast and Mid-Atlantic has been synonymous with Lacrosse since it was invented by the Iroquois. And traditionally when you thought f US lacrosse, you thought of New York and Maryland.
11-12-2017 07:34 PM
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

I don't agree with "practically zero" but there is absolutely a TON of potential growth opportunities. Here's a gif that shows growth from 2005-2015.

[Image: lacrosse-gif3.gif]
11-12-2017 08:01 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 08:01 PM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

I don't agree with "practically zero" but there is absolutely a TON of potential growth opportunities. Here's a gif that shows growth from 2005-2015.

[Image: lacrosse-gif3.gif]

The women's side has been growing much more. Utah starting men's lax is a PAC12 start. Suspect USC and Stanford will step up soon for men's lax. USC has stated they are monitoring the situation.
11-12-2017 08:41 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 06:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 05:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

Maybe petition to bring RMAC up for one sport with both men and women's LAX? It could help. You have teams in Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I think they did have a team from one of the Dakota schools at one time.

Man's:
Colorado Mesa
Rockhurst (kansas City Missouri)
Westminster Utah (Salt Lake City)
Adams State
CSU-Pueblo
Maryville

Women's:
Lindenwood
Regis
Colorado Mesa
Fort Lewis
Westminster
Rockhurst
CSU-Pueblo
Oklahoma Baptist]
Adams State
Colorado-Colorado Springs

It might give air force and Denver some close by competition until some more schools out on the west coast starts it.

Stop the D2 hijacking. This is a copy of your post from another thread. The NCAA is not going to bend its rules to add 4 small D2 schools to D1 (Maryville has already left the RMAC, Rockhurst men leaves after the 2018 season; both to the new GLVC lacrosse).

D1 do allow D2 conferences up at D1 for a sport. Conference Carolinas is a D2 conference with 1 sport as a D1. As it is, they do make exceptions to the rules.
11-12-2017 08:56 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 08:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 06:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 05:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

Maybe petition to bring RMAC up for one sport with both men and women's LAX? It could help. You have teams in Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I think they did have a team from one of the Dakota schools at one time.

Man's:
Colorado Mesa
Rockhurst (kansas City Missouri)
Westminster Utah (Salt Lake City)
Adams State
CSU-Pueblo
Maryville

Women's:
Lindenwood
Regis
Colorado Mesa
Fort Lewis
Westminster
Rockhurst
CSU-Pueblo
Oklahoma Baptist]
Adams State
Colorado-Colorado Springs

It might give air force and Denver some close by competition until some more schools out on the west coast starts it.

Stop the D2 hijacking. This is a copy of your post from another thread. The NCAA is not going to bend its rules to add 4 small D2 schools to D1 (Maryville has already left the RMAC, Rockhurst men leaves after the 2018 season; both to the new GLVC lacrosse).

D1 do allow D2 conferences up at D1 for a sport. Conference Carolinas is a D2 conference with 1 sport as a D1. As it is, they do make exceptions to the rules.

That has been eliminated. Sports that aren't offered championshipss at DII level, like ice hockey and men's volleyball, are exempt. Some sports like skiing have an NCAA championship without a specific level. Teams that moved up to DI for a specific sport like Dallas Baptist are allowed to continue.
11-12-2017 09:02 PM
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Bogg Offline
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RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 08:41 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 08:01 PM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

I don't agree with "practically zero" but there is absolutely a TON of potential growth opportunities. Here's a gif that shows growth from 2005-2015.

[Image: lacrosse-gif3.gif]

The women's side has been growing much more. Utah starting men's lax is a PAC12 start. Suspect USC and Stanford will step up soon for men's lax. USC has stated they are monitoring the situation.

Agreed that western lacrosse growth will likely have to start with the PAC, given that the earliest couple of schools will need the kind of AD budget that can support nationwide travel as a lacrosse indy. I also wouldn't be surprised to see an agreement between the Mountain West and one of the other western conferences to host teams under a single banner further out.
11-12-2017 10:08 PM
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RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 09:02 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 08:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 06:18 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 05:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 03:48 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  All fine and dandy - but there's practically zero lacrosse out west save for Denver and Air Force. Down the line that will have to be addressed.

Maybe petition to bring RMAC up for one sport with both men and women's LAX? It could help. You have teams in Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I think they did have a team from one of the Dakota schools at one time.

Man's:
Colorado Mesa
Rockhurst (kansas City Missouri)
Westminster Utah (Salt Lake City)
Adams State
CSU-Pueblo
Maryville

Women's:
Lindenwood
Regis
Colorado Mesa
Fort Lewis
Westminster
Rockhurst
CSU-Pueblo
Oklahoma Baptist]
Adams State
Colorado-Colorado Springs

It might give air force and Denver some close by competition until some more schools out on the west coast starts it.

Stop the D2 hijacking. This is a copy of your post from another thread. The NCAA is not going to bend its rules to add 4 small D2 schools to D1 (Maryville has already left the RMAC, Rockhurst men leaves after the 2018 season; both to the new GLVC lacrosse).

D1 do allow D2 conferences up at D1 for a sport. Conference Carolinas is a D2 conference with 1 sport as a D1. As it is, they do make exceptions to the rules.

That has been eliminated. Sports that aren't offered championshipss at DII level, like ice hockey and men's volleyball, are exempt. Some sports like skiing have an NCAA championship without a specific level. Teams that moved up to DI for a specific sport like Dallas Baptist are allowed to continue.

Conference Carolinas has men's volleyball and three D2 conferences have bowling. Both sports are classified as National Collegiate Division not D1, meaning there is one championship with no divisional designation. D3 does have its own men's volleyball championship. No D2 or D3 conference or school can sponsor a sport in D1 unless that sport does not have a D2 or D3 championship like bowling or it was grandfathered in like Dallas Baptist baseball.
11-12-2017 10:30 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
In California High Schools the sport is growing steadily. Yes, it's predominantly the white & Asian suburbs, but the participation and quality are steadily rising unlike football.

Men's Lacrosse (number of High Schools) from http://www.laxpower.com/common/hs_boys.php

2010 / 2017 by region 2010:

46 / 56 North Coast CIF
29 / 37 Central Coast CIF (corresponds to San Mateo, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, and Monterey counties)
67 / 98 Southern CIF
42 / 55 San Diego CIF
------------------------------
184 / 246 CIF Totals

That is a 1/3rd expansion in the number of teams fielded in just 7 years. Probably closer to a 40% increase in the number of participants.

High schools sponsoring lag the growth in club, and colleges lag the growth in high schools. It's just a matter of time before some colleges sponsor out here. I honestly expect the WCC to be first, given so many of the high schools with the sport are in the various Catholic leagues.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2017 11:26 PM by Stugray2.)
11-12-2017 11:24 PM
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Minutemen429 Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
Lacrosse will be a National sport. It will probably pass hockey as a college sport. It's killing baseball as a Spring sport in New England.

And its not its reputation as a rich kid sport, most schools in populated areas of New England have Lacrosse
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2017 12:03 AM by Minutemen429.)
11-13-2017 12:00 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
(11-12-2017 05:00 PM)Bogg Wrote:  To be fair, and I'm about the furthest one can get from an expert on the topic, but it seems like there are hurdles to overcome in starting up football that just aren't there in lacrosse. Football at that level is a significant expense, while it sounds like lacrosse is a pretty minor expense/can generate a small profit in terms of enrollment numbers without having to be at the very top level of the sport.

I don't disagree with that. It costs much less to run a lacrosse program than football, and lacrosse has the potential to be more profitable even with limited funding. Football is a wash if you aren't getting major network subsidies, alumni donations, and selling out your venue seven or eight times a year. Lacrosse offers smaller rosters, lower staffing, and there's partials if you're not going to pay for every kid to be there.

As another said, this is a good problem to have for lacrosse. I just can't look past it being these guys doing it when it's been known they're becoming more invisible. If the subject is A-10 lacrosse, I wouldn't bet on La Salle as a long-term solution.

There's no reason St. Joe's has to want them wherever they are, either. What does it do for them, you know, other than saving some money on travel?
11-13-2017 05:45 AM
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
Growth in lacrosse has skyrocketed since 1990. That is undeniable. Lax Power : Lacrosse growth has some very interesting graphs. As was said before, women's is outpacing mens growth. What I didn't expect but perhaps should have was where the growth was.

[Image: sponsorship15m.gif]

[Image: sponsorship15w.gif]

Last thing, (I'm not linking to the graph) but the prelude to a graph says this : "The graph that follows is quite similar to the first one above, but it shows the percentage of NCAA member institutions that have varsity lacrosse teams. The figures are substantially higher in Division III, where 49.4% of member institutions have men's lacrosse teams and 59.9% have women's teams. Keep in mind that the NCAA's figures do not include the hundreds of MCLA and NCLL (men's), WCLA (women's), or NAIA or NJCAA (men's and women's) collegiate teams around the country.

It's amazing the percentage of D3 schools with lacrosse but also the fact that this leaves out "hundreds" of teams. Ok, I'll try and stop posting graphs and charts to take up so much space.
11-13-2017 06:48 AM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Lacrosse : realignment, rivalries (postponed) and re-evaluation (costs)
It's growing like crazy at the high school level here in Texas but unfortunately growth is nonexistent at the college level for several reasons
11-13-2017 09:19 AM
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