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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-16-2018 08:27 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 07:50 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 03:19 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The most similar school in term of enrollment is Wake Forest. In terms of endowment and resources only Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Notre Dame in FBS have more financial power. They rank even ahead of USC, Vandy, and Miami.

The enrollment argument has some validity. They probably need another 1,000 undergrads to sustain a top level FBS program. Overall they look like a 'tweener. More resources than any G5, but not the size needed for P5.

Rice has the academic pedigree in spades. It's a great school. My children go to one of the top public high schools in the Houston area, and Rice isn't even on the radar for most students there. It's that good.

The reputation of the other large private schools in Texas is "rich". Rice's reputation is "smart". (But, there are plenty of smart people at the other TX private schools, and Rice isn't cheap at all) With its small size, small alumni base, and exclusivity, there's not as much of a connection with the general population.

However, if Rice invested HUGE money into athletics, they could, in a best-case scenario, be a Northwestern. Northwestern markets itself as "Chicago's Big Ten Team". Rice could market itself as "Houston's (insert P5 conference) Team". That is, if they could get a P5 conference to look at them. At this point, after the most recent B12 dog and pony show, P5 conferences are as likely to contract than to expand outside the P5.

As it stands now, U of H is much closer to P5 status than Rice.

Rice was in a major conference for 80 years, until 1995. They have all the resources in the world to be a Northwestern or a Vanderbilt in the Big 12.

They just have to want to do it, and as others in this thread have said, Rice just isn't interested in investing in their athletics.

Yeah but Houston was a 100% commuter college In a power conference for 17 years. That's pretty amazing to think about. Kind of like Louisville in the ACC now. Louisville, the King of the Commuters.
01-16-2018 09:30 PM
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OdinFrigg Offline
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Post: #62
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-16-2018 07:43 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 07:19 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 09:47 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  I understand it is Rice that retains the name and the dormant charter of the old Southwest Conference. If the B12 has more defections in a few years, revive the Southwest Conference with Rice being a part of it.

I've heard this tale before. But whenever I ask no one has been able to point to any credible source. I'll assume this is not true until I get strong confirmation.

Interesting. The State of Texas lists Texas State San Marcos owning the name.

[Image: nWmVuji.jpg]
The official records and memorabilia of the old Southwest Conference are held at Texas Tech University, moved from Dallas in 1997. It covers the period from 1914-1996. The conference dissolved in May, 1996 following the last two tournament games.

I am not familiar with copyright law in Texas, but assume Texas State San Marcos filed for the name without objection. There is no buying or transfer of a charter since it was nullified upon being dissolved. It is assumed the old SWC filed papers per terminating registry and tax codes after settling all outstanding debts and gaining clearances. Since TS-SM was never a member, there's nothing there but later acquiring a name, apparently free for any qualifying school/group to have pursued.
TS-SM did not register the name until 2000.
The question I have: Is it certain the term, in the San Marcos filing is about a college athletic conference? It could be meetings about the oil and gas industry, for example. It does not say either, it belongs specifically to the University, but likely so since William L. Fly was the University's attorney. But one may assume TS-SM was looking to hold on to a future bargaining chip if such a situation ever developed.
The Rice story, which had me inquisitive as well, must stem from Rice being one of the last schools to depart and go with a couple of others to the WAC while UH went to CUSA.
Good you found the name registry information, loki_the_bubba.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 12:25 PM by OdinFrigg.)
01-16-2018 09:58 PM
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exowlswimmer Offline
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Post: #63
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-16-2018 09:30 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 08:27 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 07:50 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(12-10-2017 03:19 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The most similar school in term of enrollment is Wake Forest. In terms of endowment and resources only Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Notre Dame in FBS have more financial power. They rank even ahead of USC, Vandy, and Miami.

The enrollment argument has some validity. They probably need another 1,000 undergrads to sustain a top level FBS program. Overall they look like a 'tweener. More resources than any G5, but not the size needed for P5.

Rice has the academic pedigree in spades. It's a great school. My children go to one of the top public high schools in the Houston area, and Rice isn't even on the radar for most students there. It's that good.

The reputation of the other large private schools in Texas is "rich". Rice's reputation is "smart". (But, there are plenty of smart people at the other TX private schools, and Rice isn't cheap at all) With its small size, small alumni base, and exclusivity, there's not as much of a connection with the general population.

However, if Rice invested HUGE money into athletics, they could, in a best-case scenario, be a Northwestern. Northwestern markets itself as "Chicago's Big Ten Team". Rice could market itself as "Houston's (insert P5 conference) Team". That is, if they could get a P5 conference to look at them. At this point, after the most recent B12 dog and pony show, P5 conferences are as likely to contract than to expand outside the P5.

As it stands now, U of H is much closer to P5 status than Rice.

Rice was in a major conference for 80 years, until 1995. They have all the resources in the world to be a Northwestern or a Vanderbilt in the Big 12.

They just have to want to do it, and as others in this thread have said, Rice just isn't interested in investing in their athletics.

Yeah but Houston was a 100% commuter college In a power conference for 17 years. That's pretty amazing to think about. Kind of like Louisville in the ACC now. Louisville, the King of the Commuters.
Only because Rice sponsored them into the SWC. UH then adapted to the no holds barred SWC and joined the conference outlaws earning sanctions and probation.
01-17-2018 04:11 AM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: P4 and Houston market
Yeah but rice was the leader in “protesting Houston “ to not go into
the swc until rice decided to sponsor Houston for reasons I don’t recall
Houston is no longer the “ commuter school “ of years past
Rice has spent money recently on athletics, about 40 million on an end zone building and practice facilities which ended up doing away with about 20k stadium bleacher seating so now rice stadium seat I think 52k non bleacher seats
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 04:53 AM by JHS55.)
01-17-2018 04:50 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #65
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-16-2018 07:50 PM)johnintx Wrote:  The reputation of the other large private schools in Texas is "rich". Rice's reputation is "smart". (But, there are plenty of smart people at the other TX private schools, and Rice isn't cheap at all) With its small size, small alumni base, and exclusivity, there's not as much of a connection with the general population.

However, if Rice invested HUGE money into athletics, they could, in a best-case scenario, be a Northwestern. Northwestern markets itself as "Chicago's Big Ten Team". Rice could market itself as "Houston's (insert P5 conference) Team". That is, if they could get a P5 conference to look at them. At this point, after the most recent B12 dog and pony show, P5 conferences are as likely to contract than to expand outside the P5.

But there is still the size ... Rice may have the academic standing of larger private schools, but it's still a school with under 4,000 undergrads ... among P5 privates that come immediately to mind, Duke is closest in terms of undergrads, with about 1.6 times as many undergrads and over twice the total enrollment, Vanderbilt in terms of total enrollment, with over 1.7 times as many undergrads and over 1.8 times as much total enrollment. Northwestern has over twice Rice's undergrad and total enrollment, Stanford has over twice their enrollment and over 1.8 times their s undergrad enrollment.

Vandy, Northwestern, Stanford and Duke all fall in a fairly tight cluster as far as institution size goes, and Rice is in tier a step down from that.

USC is in a different tier from the others with total enrollment above 40,000 ... in the same scale as UH, though for UH it is heavily tilted to undergrads while for USC it is tilted to graduate students.
01-17-2018 05:24 AM
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exowlswimmer Offline
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Post: #66
RE: P4 and Houston market
Rice still punches above its weight. In Houston, bowl records Rice .583 dUH .460
01-17-2018 06:02 AM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #67
RE: P4 and Houston market
Oh give it up, Rice hasn't been nationally relevant since Kennedy was in office. Houston's bowl competition has been significantly harder as well.

That said, Rice has all the tools to be relevant but haven't I said that a million times?
01-17-2018 06:46 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #68
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 05:24 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 07:50 PM)johnintx Wrote:  The reputation of the other large private schools in Texas is "rich". Rice's reputation is "smart". (But, there are plenty of smart people at the other TX private schools, and Rice isn't cheap at all) With its small size, small alumni base, and exclusivity, there's not as much of a connection with the general population.

However, if Rice invested HUGE money into athletics, they could, in a best-case scenario, be a Northwestern. Northwestern markets itself as "Chicago's Big Ten Team". Rice could market itself as "Houston's (insert P5 conference) Team". That is, if they could get a P5 conference to look at them. At this point, after the most recent B12 dog and pony show, P5 conferences are as likely to contract than to expand outside the P5.

But there is still the size ... Rice may have the academic standing of larger private schools, but it's still a school with under 4,000 undergrads ... among P5 privates that come immediately to mind, Duke is closest in terms of undergrads, with about 1.6 times as many undergrads and over twice the total enrollment, Vanderbilt in terms of total enrollment, with over 1.7 times as many undergrads and over 1.8 times as much total enrollment. Northwestern has over twice Rice's undergrad and total enrollment, Stanford has over twice their enrollment and over 1.8 times their s undergrad enrollment.

Vandy, Northwestern, Stanford and Duke all fall in a fairly tight cluster as far as institution size goes, and Rice is in tier a step down from that.

USC is in a different tier from the others with total enrollment above 40,000 ... in the same scale as UH, though for UH it is heavily tilted to undergrads while for USC it is tilted to graduate students.

Rice's size, and thus fan base, is a problem. Rice draws about 20,000 to football games and that's in a good year, some years it's at 15,000, FCS level.

They'd have to get fan support up in to the 30,000 + range to be more ready for P5.
01-17-2018 07:38 AM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #69
RE: P4 and Houston market
Rice has the same problem Tulane does, where despite being in a football-crazy part of the country, most of the undergrads aren't from the local area and leave the local area once they graduate. The locals would rather support the nearby public powers (A&M, UH, LSU) meaning the privates don't see as much of a reason to be ambitious. There isn't a reason for either of them to be anywhere other than where they are. In fact, I'd say Tulane's kind of lucky to be in the AAC.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 07:44 AM by Mav.)
01-17-2018 07:43 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #70
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 07:43 AM)Mav Wrote:  Rice has the same problem Tulane does, where despite being in a football-crazy part of the country, most of the undergrads aren't from the local area and leave the local area once they graduate. The locals would rather support the nearby public powers (A&M, UH, LSU) meaning the privates don't see as much of a reason to be ambitious. There isn't a reason for either of them to be anywhere other than where they are. In fact, I'd say Tulane's kind of lucky to be in the AAC.

Thing is, I'm not sure Rice views itself as having a 'problem', at least not a big one. Like other elite schools, athletics just isn't nearly as much an aspect of the school's marketing profile as it is at other places. At Houston or ECU, football is viewed as the "front porch" of the university, arguably the best reason the school is known to a broader public, and is believed to be key to attracting students, media attention, and then later alumni donations. Rice would be mortified if that were true of itself.

Sure, Rice has an athletic department with a strategic plan to get into a Power league. Even schools with $5 Billion endowments are always looking for an extra $30 million. But it's just not nearly as big a deal to them as it is to lesser schools.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 08:11 AM by quo vadis.)
01-17-2018 08:09 AM
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GO Coogs GO!!! Offline
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Post: #71
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 06:02 AM)exowlswimmer Wrote:  Rice still punches above its weight. In Houston, bowl records Rice .583 dUH .460

Bowl games since 1946 (UH's First Season)

Rice 6-5

UH 11-14-1

Yes (and I don't like the winning % either) we are under .500 in bowl games but we have played in 26 and you have played in 11.

You have to win to even begin to try and have this conversation (being bowl eligible). Rice not so much........
01-17-2018 05:48 PM
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Post: #72
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 05:48 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 06:02 AM)exowlswimmer Wrote:  Rice still punches above its weight. In Houston, bowl records Rice .583 dUH .460

Bowl games since 1946 (UH's First Season)

Rice 6-5

UH 11-14-1

Yes (and I don't like the winning % either) we are under .500 in bowl games but we have played in 26 and you have played in 11.

You have to win to even begin to try and have this conversation (being bowl eligible). Rice not so much........

When looking at all games, the total number of wins matters and not winning percentage. But when looking at only bowl games, the winning percentage matters and not the total number of wins. Otherwise, it becomes obvious that Houston has done better than Rice.
01-17-2018 06:10 PM
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Post: #73
RE: P4 and Houston market
Rice has barely even played in any bowl since 1961. Houston has played top 25 teams or very close like Syracuse, Notre Dame, South Carolina, Washington State, etc...
01-17-2018 09:06 PM
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exowlswimmer Offline
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Post: #74
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Rice has barely even played in any bowl since 1961. Houston has played top 25 teams or very close like Syracuse, Notre Dame, South Carolina, Washington State, etc...

Houston’s bowl record is even more impressive given the numerous times they were ineligible for the post season due to NCAA infractions. Rice should have followed Arkansas out of Conference Probation when we had the chance!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...f5d6cdf05a

I guess the Post has been distributing “fake news “ for years.
01-17-2018 11:08 PM
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GO Coogs GO!!! Offline
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Post: #75
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 11:08 PM)exowlswimmer Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Rice has barely even played in any bowl since 1961. Houston has played top 25 teams or very close like Syracuse, Notre Dame, South Carolina, Washington State, etc...

Houston’s bowl record is even more impressive given the numerous times they were ineligible for the post season due to NCAA infractions. Rice should have followed Arkansas out of Conference Probation when we had the chance!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...f5d6cdf05a

I guess the Post has been distributing “fake news “ for years.

That's a broad stroke you're only applying to UH. Everyone that was in the SWC (yes save Rice and if you can believe Baylor) has been guilty. Looking at years while member of the SWC this is how it played out. Of course all schools save Rice have been on probation at some point either pre or post SWC. Also violations did occur at some of the schools but time was served outside the SWC.

http://www.footballgeography.com/college...probation/

Arkansas: 1 year, 1964
Houston: 4 years, 1977, 1989-1991
SMU: 15 years, 1964-1965, 1974-1976, 1981-1982, 1985-1990
TCU: 3 years, 1986-1988
Texas: 3 years, 1964, 1982, 1987
Texas A&M: 7 years, 1956, 1966, 1988-1990, 1994-1996
Texas Tech: 1 year, 1987

Basically the point is unless you're calling everyone out you have no business calling anyone out.
01-18-2018 06:00 PM
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Post: #76
RE: P4 and Houston market
I completely agree with quite a few of the posts I have seen on here. If Rice cares greatly about its athletic programs, it uses its resources to build them. Rice could have programs that compete with many of P5 schools, but it would need a lot of commitment and a bit of time. Should time and commitment be devoted to Rice athletics, they get better, and sports fans go to games.

Here is a crazy idea that I know could make others disagree. If Rice does make that jump, a more outlying league, like a Pacific 12 Conference, could possibly look at a travel partnership by adding Houston and Rice together. Building that locally rivalry could be good for the schools.

I think that conference realignment being driven by media markets and cable companies could be ending soon with digital networks and streaming services coming to the front of the pack to provide viewership.
01-18-2018 07:36 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #77
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-17-2018 09:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Rice has barely even played in any bowl since 1961.

Well, they've played in 4 of them the past 9 years.
01-18-2018 07:46 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #78
RE: P4 and Houston market
Yeah, now that going to a bowl game means little now days. And even with that, they've gone to 5 in 55 years while they spent most of that time in a major conference and other conferences with plenty of bowl bids. Their enrollment size screwed them a few times, such as in 2001 but they still have averaged less than 1 per decade the last 5 plus decades. That's a scarlett letter.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 02:46 PM by _C2_.)
01-18-2018 08:42 PM
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Post: #79
RE: P4 and Houston market
(01-18-2018 08:42 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Yeah, now that going to a bowl game means little now days. And even with that, they've gone to 4 in 55 years while they spent most of that time in a major conference and other conferences with plenty of bowl bids. Their enrollment size screwed them a few times, such as in 2001 but they still have averaged less than 1 per decade the last 5 plus decades. That's a scarlett letter.

The bold is definitely true. It's easier now to make a bowl than fail to.
01-18-2018 10:11 PM
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Post: #80
RE: P4 and Houston market
Rice is a national academic power. It gets people from all over the country that are good enough students. But they aren’t a name school in Houston.

The last bowl game: Belated Nielsen ratings for Texas, starting with Rice-Fresno St. in Hawaii Bowl: 1.3 national, 1.2 Houston, 1.9 DFW, 1.1 Austin, 2.6 SA.

Yep. A 1.2 rating.
01-18-2018 10:54 PM
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