(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  On the Christian calendar, the twelve days of Christmas are December 25-January 5. January 6 is Epiphany. The four Sundays before Christmas are Advent, as George described.

Liturgical churches observe all three seasons. Nom-liturgical denominations almost all observe Christmas, many observe Epiphany, and some are starting to observe Advent.

I grew up in the Church of Christ. We did not deal with Advent, Epiphany, or Lent.

then I was an atheist for a while. Just had Christmas season then

Then Disciples of Christ. Still Christ,as season.

Then agnostic. Still Christmas season.

Twelve days of Christmas was a song.

In the song, a gift was given each of the twelve days. Is that still done?

(12-18-2017 09:29 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Twelve days of Christmas was a song.

In the song, a gift was given each of the twelve days. Is that still done?

Some people do something along those lines -- with, as Chip says, Dec 25 being the first day Jan 5 being the twelfth.

(12-18-2017 09:42 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 09:29 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Twelve days of Christmas was a song.

In the song, a gift was given each of the twelve days. Is that still done?

Some people do something along those lines -- with, as Chip says, Dec 25 being the first day Jan 5 being the twelfth.

what is the significance of Jan. 5 in the christian faith? Why are there 12 days? I know more about sleigh bells than twelve days.

(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  On the Christian calendar, the twelve days of Christmas are December 25-January 5. January 6 is Epiphany. The four Sundays before Christmas are Advent, as George described.

In New Orleans, Epiphany is the first day that king cakes go on sale, and the first day of Carnival season, which ends on Mardi Gras. A krewe called the Phunny Phorty Phellows holds a streetcar parade on January 6 to announce the opening of Carnival, and the Twelfth Night Revelers hold their ball (led by the "Lord of Misrule" -- an English custom) that night.

Since Mardi Gras is a moveable feast, the length of the Carnival season can vary considerably. Which I think is cool: it keeps tourists guessing, and it just might prompt someone to learn a little bit about liturgical calendars. This year, Mardi Gras (and thus Easter) is fairly early: Mardi Gras is Feb 13, so there are only 5.5 weeks of Carnival.

(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Liturgical churches observe all three seasons. Nom-liturgical denominations almost all observe Christmas, many observe Epiphany, and some are starting to observe Advent.

Interestingly, the status of Christmas as a major holiday has varied considerably from century to century and from denomination to denomination. For hundreds of years, churches of Calvinist tradition (e.g. Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed) essentially ignored it, and in much of Christendom the day was associated with drunken carousing, not at all with babies or gift-giving. My understanding is that the home-centered, family-oriented, sentimental (and retail) aspects of Christmas date mostly to the second half of the 19th century, and some say they were sort of a deliberate effort by Victorian society to remake the holiday in more wholesome form.

At any rate, for most of the 1980s and 1990s, I was able to say that Christmas and Easter were like the Super Bowl and the NFC championship: the former is endlessly promoted, gets all the hype, and brings the once-a-year fans out in droves, but real followers know that the latter is the real deal. But NFC dominance ended a while ago.

(12-18-2017 09:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 09:42 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 09:29 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Twelve days of Christmas was a song.

In the song, a gift was given each of the twelve days. Is that still done?

Some people do something along those lines -- with, as Chip says, Dec 25 being the first day Jan 5 being the twelfth.

what is the significance of Jan. 5 in the christian faith? Why are there 12 days? I know more about sleigh bells than twelve days.

Epiphany is Three Kings Day, which makes me wonder if the 12 days of Christmas are to celebrate the time between the birth and arrival of the three kings?

I only know about Three Kings day because my fiance has European relatives and they celebrate that day with much more fervor than we do.

(12-18-2017 09:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 09:42 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 09:29 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Twelve days of Christmas was a song.

In the song, a gift was given each of the twelve days. Is that still done?

Some people do something along those lines -- with, as Chip says, Dec 25 being the first day Jan 5 being the twelfth.

what is the significance of Jan. 5 in the christian faith? Why are there 12 days? I know more about sleigh bells than twelve days.

There is no real significance to January 5, other than it is the day before January 6, which is the date for observance of the Epiphany, and starts a different season of the calendar.

The number twelve figures prominently in many Western traditions, probably because of its mathematical property of being made up of many other numbers: it has four integer factors, which is a lot. It is in a nod to this tradition that the flag of the European Union has twelve stars in a circle. The twelve apostles are a more famous example. So anyway, it seems likely that when a date was fixed for Epiphany, it was chosen to be twelve days after Christmas for that reason. (And of course, the date for Christmas itself is not the least bit biblical -- December 25 was chosen for convenience, much like the official Queen's Birthday in Great Britain is celebrated on the second Saturday of June, regardless of when Her Majesty was actually born.)

But it's more than twelve days, you say? Yes, because one does not count Sundays -- because Sunday is always a day of celebration and takes precedence over any seasonal designation. For the same reason, the forty days of Lent span 46 days on the calendar.

(12-18-2017 10:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Epiphany is Three Kings Day, which makes me wonder if the 12 days of Christmas are to celebrate the time between the birth and arrival of the three kings?

I only know about Three Kings day because my fiance has European relatives and they celebrate that day with much more fervor than we do.

I suspect you specifically mean relatives from Catholic Europe. The secular celebration of Epiphany seems to be a thing mainly in historically Catholic countries -- which is of course why it is also a thing in New Orleans.

(12-18-2017 10:24 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Epiphany is Three Kings Day, which makes me wonder if the 12 days of Christmas are to celebrate the time between the birth and arrival of the three kings?

I only know about Three Kings day because my fiance has European relatives and they celebrate that day with much more fervor than we do.

I suspect you specifically mean relatives from Catholic Europe. The secular celebration of Epiphany seems to be a thing mainly in historically Catholic countries -- which is of course why it is also a thing in New Orleans.

I'm speaking from my personal experience which deals with Germany and the Netherlands, specifically.

(12-18-2017 10:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  On the Christian calendar, the twelve days of Christmas are December 25-January 5. January 6 is Epiphany. The four Sundays before Christmas are Advent, as George described.

In New Orleans, Epiphany is the first day that king cakes go on sale, and the first day of Carnival season, which ends on Mardi Gras. A krewe called the Phunny Phorty Phellows holds a streetcar parade on January 6 to announce the opening of Carnival, and the Twelfth Night Revelers hold their ball (led by the "Lord of Misrule" -- an English custom) that night.

Since Mardi Gras is a moveable feast, the length of the Carnival season can vary considerably. Which I think is cool: it keeps tourists guessing, and it just might prompt someone to learn a little bit about liturgical calendars. This year, Mardi Gras (and thus Easter) is fairly early: Mardi Gras is Feb 13, so there are only 5.5 weeks of Carnival.

(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Liturgical churches observe all three seasons. Nom-liturgical denominations almost all observe Christmas, many observe Epiphany, and some are starting to observe Advent.

Interestingly, the status of Christmas as a major holiday has varied considerably from century to century and from denomination to denomination. For hundreds of years, churches of Calvinist tradition (e.g. Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed) essentially ignored it, and in much of Christendom the day was associated with drunken carousing, not at all with babies or gift-giving. My understanding is that the home-centered, family-oriented, sentimental (and retail) aspects of Christmas date mostly to the second half of the 19th century, and some say they were sort of a deliberate effort by Victorian society to remake the holiday in more wholesome form.

At any rate, for most of the 1980s and 1990s, I was able to say that Christmas and Easter were like the Super Bowl and the NFC championship: the former is endlessly promoted, gets all the hype, and brings the once-a-year fans out in droves, but real followers know that the latter is the real deal. But NFC dominance ended a while ago.

Prince Albert and Dickens get much of the credit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/victorianchristmas/history.shtml

(12-18-2017 10:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:24 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Epiphany is Three Kings Day, which makes me wonder if the 12 days of Christmas are to celebrate the time between the birth and arrival of the three kings?

I only know about Three Kings day because my fiance has European relatives and they celebrate that day with much more fervor than we do.

I suspect you specifically mean relatives from Catholic Europe. The secular celebration of Epiphany seems to be a thing mainly in historically Catholic countries -- which is of course why it is also a thing in New Orleans.

I'm speaking from my personal experience which deals with Germany and the Netherlands, specifically.

Cool!

And regardless of origin, holidays are a good thing. We need more of them. A good civic holiday is much more beneficial to society than a day or two of “flex days”

(12-18-2017 10:46 AM)JSA Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  On the Christian calendar, the twelve days of Christmas are December 25-January 5. January 6 is Epiphany. The four Sundays before Christmas are Advent, as George described.

In New Orleans, Epiphany is the first day that king cakes go on sale, and the first day of Carnival season, which ends on Mardi Gras. A krewe called the Phunny Phorty Phellows holds a streetcar parade on January 6 to announce the opening of Carnival, and the Twelfth Night Revelers hold their ball (led by the "Lord of Misrule" -- an English custom) that night.

Since Mardi Gras is a moveable feast, the length of the Carnival season can vary considerably. Which I think is cool: it keeps tourists guessing, and it just might prompt someone to learn a little bit about liturgical calendars. This year, Mardi Gras (and thus Easter) is fairly early: Mardi Gras is Feb 13, so there are only 5.5 weeks of Carnival.

(12-18-2017 07:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Liturgical churches observe all three seasons. Nom-liturgical denominations almost all observe Christmas, many observe Epiphany, and some are starting to observe Advent.

Interestingly, the status of Christmas as a major holiday has varied considerably from century to century and from denomination to denomination. For hundreds of years, churches of Calvinist tradition (e.g. Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed) essentially ignored it, and in much of Christendom the day was associated with drunken carousing, not at all with babies or gift-giving. My understanding is that the home-centered, family-oriented, sentimental (and retail) aspects of Christmas date mostly to the second half of the 19th century, and some say they were sort of a deliberate effort by Victorian society to remake the holiday in more wholesome form.

At any rate, for most of the 1980s and 1990s, I was able to say that Christmas and Easter were like the Super Bowl and the NFC championship: the former is endlessly promoted, gets all the hype, and brings the once-a-year fans out in droves, but real followers know that the latter is the real deal. But NFC dominance ended a while ago.

Prince Albert and Dickens get much of the credit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/victorianchristmas/history.shtml

Damn them!!! Drunken carousing is much more enjoyable than shopping. :(

(12-18-2017 10:06 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Interestingly, the status of Christmas as a major holiday has varied considerably from century to century and from denomination to denomination. For hundreds of years, churches of Calvinist tradition (e.g. Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed) essentially ignored it, and in much of Christendom the day was associated with drunken carousing, not at all with babies or gift-giving.

I will honour drunken carousing in my heart, and try to keep it all the year. I will carouse drunkenly in the Past, the Present, and the Future.

“It’s only once a year, sir,” pleaded Bob. “It shall not be repeated. I was making rather merry yesterday, sir.”

I must say this thread has taken a turn for the better.

Happy Days to all!

Happy winter solstice to everybody. I hope your feasts go well.

As for anybody who does not feast today, have a good day. I said Good Day, sir!

Merry Christmas, and may God bless you throughout the coming new year!

Doug Jones voted with 4 other Dems to kee the government open, without a DACA fix. Proving he is totally lock-in-step with Schumer as expected.

Or perhaps Schumer has leeway in helping Senators in voting, and actually knows that Jones will need all the help he can generate.

One vote, especially with 'slack' to conspicuously allow red-state Senators to vote in a way that will help their re-election proves nothing. The real rubber hits the road when Schumer has no leeway in votes.

By the way Lad, before your proclamation, I suggest you look at the Democratic Senators who voted against a government shutdown. They all (except for Jones) share a common trait; and most share with Jones another trait.

I wouldn't base a somewhat proclamative statement on the basis of vote given the makeup of the Democratic 'defector' votes; and I actually meant the quotes......

It could very well be that Doug Jones will not be a Schumer hand puppet. But, this vote (in particular) actually proves very little.

Thank you to lad for that. I was wondering. Has he gone against Schumer any other times? How many, and what for?

The Dems like to say it is all on the backs of the Republicans since they control all three branches - House, Senate, and WH.

A 51-49 edge in the Senate when 60 is needed is hardly control, and I think nobody controls the WH, at least if we beloeve CNN. (I tend to take their hysterical pronouncements with a grain of salt)