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Michigan State basically Penn State
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ArQ Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-23-2018 06:50 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  How are they not in bigger trouble? So as it turns out abuse was reported as far back as 1997 but not only was the victim ignored and silenced but punished for reporting it. Victims were almost victimized on a systematic basis. The judge has allowed a 140 women and girls to speak against their abuser.

Replace the victims from boys to girls and it’s basically penn State all over. Shameful.

http://wlns.com/2018/01/22/twistars-owne...ctims-say/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/victim...ar-AAv40L3

Michigan State will be all right. If nothing happened to Penn State, there will be nothing happening to Michigan State. Just slap on the wrist.
01-26-2018 02:14 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
I am seeing a lot of the same patterns here as in other schools

1. Brand protection is a priority
2. Process for handling potentially criminal behavior is not transparent
3. Departments often handle internally, try to keep things from getting out, beyond their control
4. Campus Police lack independence to investigate, take action (departments, University administration in the way)
5. Local Police and Prosecutors Office compromised by University influence, often try to avoid arrests and prosecutions

These are not unique to Penn State or Michigan State. Montana has had similar issues at FCS level. Frankly I suspect this is the case at the majority of major programs in the NCAA. The above conditions and "processes" are more likely in place than not at most P5 and even G5 and FCS schools. The bigger the program, the more likely, but as Montana shows it pushes down to at least FCS level.

The problems are driven by human nature. Nobody wants their boss to get involved in their problems, so departments, and below that coaching staffs try to keep things within their control and not get beyond that. "Handle it in-house" or "internally" is a common phrase. This leads to behaviors such as leaning on the campus police, and using influence on local city officials. And Administrations have the same attitude, not wanting any hits on the school's reputation. So these department and administration interventions have decades of momentum behind them, and only a clean break in process can fix it. Low ranking officials learn the culture, so the practice shave to change.

Part of what is needed is for the public and NCAA and school officials to recognize and accept a certain number of criminal level actions will occur when you bring a bunch of lower socioeconomic individuals onto campus because of only athletic ability. It should not end a coaches employment if some go rogue, so long as the number and frequency of incidents is within norm. To have a top program risks are going to be taken, it's the nature of the beast. We don't want to be a society that gives no second chances and that takes no risks.

Now the flip side. Power to make decisions on discipline needs to be independent of pressure form the Department and administration. And this probably goes for all issues of Title IX and student safety. The campus police need to be independent of influence. And there should be strict enforcement of that should any officials make contact or ask for favors. This goes doubly when dealing with local police and prosecutors. Essentially when an incident occurs the athletic staff's responsibility should be to report it and then take actions required by rule. And otherwise be out of the process. Same for the Chancellor's or President's office.

How many schools operate under the "in-house" model? Clearly the majority at the highest level of college athletics. In a couple years another case will likely break somewhere else. The NCAA should work on recommending processes to replace those of many schools.

In the meantime, you may see a number of heads roll at MSU, as the spotlight and investigations unfold.
01-26-2018 02:43 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 01:38 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  Nonsense, a university president in todays landscape is a CEO. I should not have to explain how much they both have in common

So, the shareholder's equivalence in higher education is?

Quote:Now the flip side. Power to make decisions on discipline needs to be independent of pressure form the Department and administration. And this probably goes for all issues of Title IX and student safety. The campus police need to be independent of influence. And there should be strict enforcement of that should any officials make contact or ask for favors. This goes doubly when dealing with local police and prosecutors. Essentially when an incident occurs the athletic staff's responsibility should be to report it and then take actions required by rule. And otherwise be out of the process. Same for the Chancellor's or President's office.

How many schools operate under the "in-house" model? Clearly the majority at the highest level of college athletics. In a couple years another case will likely break somewhere else. The NCAA should work on recommending processes to replace those of many schools.

Yeah, I'm intrigued how badly this makes general counsel and HR look within these institutions (granted, higher ed HR is not like HR in corporate, but, still). These units are supposed to be the ombuds of any organization, but they seem more pliable in higher ed, if not complicators of the issues. And, that does have a lot to do with the "institution first" mentality of leadership. What's more frustrating is that these units are supposed to counsel and advise leadership, not BE counseled and advised for some other purpose.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 03:33 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-26-2018 03:17 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.
01-26-2018 04:09 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
So how much do you trust Barstool in breaking news?

https://twitter.com/BarstoolMSU/status/9...7222512640

"BREAKING NEWS: Sources close to the Athletic Department reporting that Izzo may retire within next few days, Dantonio soon to follow."


OK... so this is probably fake.

Confirmed false in statement tonight.

"Mark Dantonio says the reports that he will resign are "absolutely false."

https://twitter.com/SchutteCFB/status/95...2351404032
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 07:57 PM by TerpsNPhoenix.)
01-26-2018 04:09 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  So how much do you trust Barstool in breaking news?

https://twitter.com/BarstoolMSU/status/9...7222512640

"BREAKING NEWS: Sources close to the Athletic Department reporting that Izzo may retire within next few days, Dantonio soon to follow."


OK... so this is probably fake.

definitely wouldn't be a surprise right now.
01-26-2018 04:16 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

In higher education, HR is often situated organizationally under or alongside general counsel, if not independent and/or headed by someone holding a JD (at least it's trending that way). Don't disagree they are a flimsy defense in either sphere, but, it comes with the territory. It's more on the institution how it addresses challenges typically handled by labor/employee relations; the #metoo movement is one that is going to force institutions to reconsider the "divided house" construct of Academic Affairs and HR "sharing" those functions (imo, at least, and, again, where you're seeing lawyers starting to run HR offices in schools, as well as reconciling AA's "practices" in employee relations and performance management that is historically and traditionally unique, yet antiquated, from other organizational structures).

The tl;dr version: the tasks and functions of any of these three units: HR, OGC, and AA are in desperate need of restructure and repair, as well as definition. You have role ambiguity at the top, role overload operationally.

As for the taxpayer/shareholder comparison, I'm not sure I agree, though I wish my voice as a taxpayer was factored more prevalently with state or local legislators who can influence these institutions as one could by simply owning property within a school district. A board is supposed to be the intermediary between organization and stakeholder, but the added governance layer of state legislation distances a taxpayer from a college/university governance board. Where I and my neighbors have a direct link to primary and secondary school governance, much like I may as a shareholder, I don't with a state university, who takes its orders from elected officials, not every resident.

The tl;dr there: corporate's more like the local school district than public higher ed, with a fractured connection between taxpayer and institution oversight. I can only hope my views will be factored by my local lawmaker. I can go pound sand otherwise.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 04:57 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-26-2018 04:51 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 04:16 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  So how much do you trust Barstool in breaking news?

https://twitter.com/BarstoolMSU/status/9...7222512640

"BREAKING NEWS: Sources close to the Athletic Department reporting that Izzo may retire within next few days, Dantonio soon to follow."


OK... so this is probably fake.

definitely wouldn't be a surprise right now.

Complete BS

https://twitter.com/BFQuinn/status/956995195127595010
Brendan F. Quinn‏ Verified account @BFQuinn

There are "reports" popping up on these interwebs, I believe from fake or spoof accounts, that Izzo is planning on announcing his own retirement in the coming days. A source close to Izzo says this is "nonsense."
1:00 PM - 26 Jan 2018
01-26-2018 05:07 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 05:07 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:16 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  So how much do you trust Barstool in breaking news?

https://twitter.com/BarstoolMSU/status/9...7222512640

"BREAKING NEWS: Sources close to the Athletic Department reporting that Izzo may retire within next few days, Dantonio soon to follow."


OK... so this is probably fake.

definitely wouldn't be a surprise right now.

Complete BS

https://twitter.com/BFQuinn/status/956995195127595010
Brendan F. Quinn‏ Verified account @BFQuinn

There are "reports" popping up on these interwebs, I believe from fake or spoof accounts, that Izzo is planning on announcing his own retirement in the coming days. A source close to Izzo says this is "nonsense."
1:00 PM - 26 Jan 2018

I'm not inclined to believe anything from Twitter. If anything is "fake news" it is Twitter.

That being said, it's hard for me to see how either Izzo or Dantonio can survive the beating they are taking on OTL. I think it's just a matter of time.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 08:43 PM by ken d.)
01-26-2018 06:43 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 01:38 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 12:33 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 12:25 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  The president is getting paid $2mm over the next few years after not standing up against the worst molester in sports history. The university is going to get sued literally 100's of millions and the president walks away with a golden parachute. I really just don;t understand how business's deal with CEO's, they are so overvalued and the hole thing is disgusting. I believe the reason it happens is because the boards are all full of CEO types and they want to set the precedent. It pisses me off more than anything in business.

The last Tulane president left the school with a $20mm deficit and was awarded with a $1mm+ parachute and they named the road in front of the university after him. Stay classy.

Well, for starters...let's stop by calling non-profit educational institutions "businesses," and their leaders "CEO's." It's nothing against you...this is just a common disconnect too many people have with this stuff.

Maybe not at a place like a private school, but at the public school-level, people in their states need to stop the talk and force their representation to take action on keeping institutions and their leaders accountable.

And at a place like Michigan State, unlike Penn State, who could dodge and skip around the source of settlement payments coming from state taxpayer money, yes, all of you Michigan residents will probably shoulder this in some way. But you shouldn't...and what is it going to take for people to make sure you shouldn't ever?

Nonsense, a university president in todays landscape is a CEO. I should not have to explain how much they both have in common

The primary goal of the President is to advance the university's mission. The primary goal of a CEO in a large corporation is to return a higher profit to shareholders.

There are colossal differences - and the fact that we are asking this question tells me we have lost sight of what universities are supposed to be.
01-26-2018 07:19 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 02:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:50 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  How are they not in bigger trouble? So as it turns out abuse was reported as far back as 1997 but not only was the victim ignored and silenced but punished for reporting it. Victims were almost victimized on a systematic basis. The judge has allowed a 140 women and girls to speak against their abuser.

Replace the victims from boys to girls and it’s basically penn State all over. Shameful.

http://wlns.com/2018/01/22/twistars-owne...ctims-say/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/victim...ar-AAv40L3

Michigan State will be all right. If nothing happened to Penn State, there will be nothing happening to Michigan State. Just slap on the wrist.

Unfortunately, you’re most likely right.
01-26-2018 07:20 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
Wanna know what's really scary?

This is probably commonplace at most Division I schools. Sexual abuse, corruption, and other misdeeds have gone hand-in-hand with athletics when major money is involved.

Take away the major sports money, and this will clean itself up nicely.
01-26-2018 07:21 PM
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Rube Dali Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
The NCAA is completely complicit in this. And I'm not just talking about the people running it, every institution who holds membership is complicit.
01-26-2018 08:40 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 02:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:50 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  How are they not in bigger trouble? So as it turns out abuse was reported as far back as 1997 but not only was the victim ignored and silenced but punished for reporting it. Victims were almost victimized on a systematic basis. The judge has allowed a 140 women and girls to speak against their abuser.

Replace the victims from boys to girls and it’s basically penn State all over. Shameful.

http://wlns.com/2018/01/22/twistars-owne...ctims-say/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/victim...ar-AAv40L3

Michigan State will be all right. If nothing happened to Penn State, there will be nothing happening to Michigan State. Just slap on the wrist.

Hasn't Penn State paid out about $250 million?
01-26-2018 11:01 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 11:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:50 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  How are they not in bigger trouble? So as it turns out abuse was reported as far back as 1997 but not only was the victim ignored and silenced but punished for reporting it. Victims were almost victimized on a systematic basis. The judge has allowed a 140 women and girls to speak against their abuser.

Replace the victims from boys to girls and it’s basically penn State all over. Shameful.

http://wlns.com/2018/01/22/twistars-owne...ctims-say/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/victim...ar-AAv40L3

Michigan State will be all right. If nothing happened to Penn State, there will be nothing happening to Michigan State. Just slap on the wrist.

Hasn't Penn State paid out about $250 million?

That is peanut for Penn State.
01-27-2018 02:50 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 08:40 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  The NCAA is completely complicit in this. And I'm not just talking about the people running it, every institution who holds membership is complicit.

And just like with Penn State, the spotlight is now on something it shouldn't be.

I think the NCAA is going to be bailed out on this part of its business. They've probably been begging for relief or support for years; they're "under-staffed" yet overwhelmed with violation investigations. But it's pitiful if it does get relief...there is no shortage of money in the NCAA. They'd just rather hoard it than invest in operations.

I wish the NCAA itself is detonated because of all this feebleness. It should be destroyed, but I doubt we have the right leaders in Washington to make it so.
01-27-2018 05:41 AM
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Post: #57
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-27-2018 02:50 AM)ArQ Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 11:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-26-2018 02:14 PM)ArQ Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 06:50 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  How are they not in bigger trouble? So as it turns out abuse was reported as far back as 1997 but not only was the victim ignored and silenced but punished for reporting it. Victims were almost victimized on a systematic basis. The judge has allowed a 140 women and girls to speak against their abuser.

Replace the victims from boys to girls and it’s basically penn State all over. Shameful.

http://wlns.com/2018/01/22/twistars-owne...ctims-say/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/victim...ar-AAv40L3

Michigan State will be all right. If nothing happened to Penn State, there will be nothing happening to Michigan State. Just slap on the wrist.

Hasn't Penn State paid out about $250 million?

That is peanut for Penn State.

Um, no it isn't.

Just curious: If 1/4 of a billion dollars is a 'slap pin wrist', what in your book would qualify as real punishment?
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2018 08:27 AM by quo vadis.)
01-27-2018 08:26 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-24-2018 01:49 PM)Wedge Wrote:  This is the kind of message that Michigan State's board needs to send, and the kind of action they need to take.

Quote:In an open letter to Team USA, Scott Blackmun, the CEO of the United States Olympic Committee, called on all USA Gymnastics directors to resign in the wake of the Larry Nassar abuse scandal, in order to start to change the culture of the sport.

Three USAG board members have recently resigned, but Blackmun called on a "full turnover of leadership from the past."

"The purpose of this message is to tell all of Nassar's victims and survivors, directly, how incredibly sorry we are," Blackmun wrote. "We have said it in other contexts, but we have not been direct enough with you. We are sorry for the pain caused by this terrible man, and sorry that you weren't afforded a safe opportunity to pursue your sports dreams. The Olympic family is among those that have failed you."
http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/...estigation

That was one of my problems with Penn St. The board tried to blame it all on Joe Paterno and they all stayed on the board.
01-27-2018 12:02 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 04:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Bish,

HR is pliant almost everywhere. Name a company where HR had real power? HR people are a dime a dozen, the first ones laid off when times get hard. Many companies almost completely outsource HR (common in Silicon Valley for companies under 200 employees). They are in a position of being forced to suck up to upper management more than anyone, because they produce nothing for the bottom line. (Yet they are necessary.) I don't have a remedy, just an observation.

As for your question of shareholders, that would be State tax payers at public schools, and their reps would be the trustees/regents -- these have their own issues.

The State has a power shareholders don't: they can appoint an independent ombudsman office for Universities and take the disciplinary department out from under the President and place it under a different government office, such as the Governors, or a better a special task force of legislature (like the ethics committee) and Governor.

Private schools are all different, and I wont even speculate on how to deal with them, as I am not a believer in one size fits all policies.

A lot of people just don't understand this. Maybe not EVERYWHERE, but most places. People tend to go along, not question authority. Penn St. could have happened at a lot of schools, despite all the self-righteous proclamations. Montana, Baylor, Michigan St., North Carolina (on the academic, not criminal side) and others have demonstrated that.
01-27-2018 12:07 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Michigan State basically Penn State
(01-26-2018 07:21 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  Wanna know what's really scary?

This is probably commonplace at most Division I schools. Sexual abuse, corruption, and other misdeeds have gone hand-in-hand with athletics when major money is involved.

Take away the major sports money, and this will clean itself up nicely.

Montana? Not that much money there.
01-27-2018 12:08 PM
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