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Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #61
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
I see it working just like this---G5 stars to the P5, while lazy overated 4-star/3-star busts buried on the depth chart slide to the G5. The top G5 teams stay competitive by finding enough high school 2/3-star late bloomers that end up developing into kids that can start for P5's. They wont be competitive if they lose those guys and replace them with 4th string cast offs from the P5.


https://www.si.com/college-football/2018...gan-auburn
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2018 12:30 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-09-2018 12:24 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-09-2018 12:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I see it working just like this---G5 stars to the P5, while lazy overated 4-star/3-star busts buried on the depth chart slide to the G5.

You're underrating a lot of the players who are on the benches at the best programs. There are dozens of players who almost never play who could start for two-thirds of the teams in FBS.
02-09-2018 01:42 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
People who support this seem to forget that the athletes are "students" first.

There is nothing, zero, nada, zip in the current rules against student-athletes transferring and taking classes at another school. They can get their scholarship. They can even practice sports. They just have to wait a year to represent the school in an amateur sports contest.

I have no problem with the current restriction.
02-09-2018 03:26 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
Another thing - as an economics professor who studies incentives all day - trust me, this proposal will unleash hell. Lower-tier schools will never be able to sustain success.

How would Dan Hawkins have gone 12-1 at Boise in 2002 without a senior Quarterback (who surely would have had offers after Koetter left in 2000)?

How would Cincinnati have gone to the Orange Bowl in 2008 and Sugar Bowl in 2009 if our young core had been raided when Dantonio left in 2006?
02-09-2018 03:34 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-09-2018 12:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I see it working just like this---G5 stars to the P5, while lazy overated 4-star/3-star busts buried on the depth chart slide to the G5. The top G5 teams stay competitive by finding enough high school 2/3-star late bloomers that end up developing into kids that can start for P5's. They wont be competitive if they lose those guys and replace them with 4th string cast offs from the P5.


https://www.si.com/college-football/2018...gan-auburn
Except his old school has to either:
1. Go on probation with a bowl ban
2. Lose their head coach.
-OR-
The player has to complete a bachelor's degree

Sorry just not anticipating a vast amount of movement.
02-09-2018 04:17 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #66
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-09-2018 04:17 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 12:24 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I see it working just like this---G5 stars to the P5, while lazy overated 4-star/3-star busts buried on the depth chart slide to the G5. The top G5 teams stay competitive by finding enough high school 2/3-star late bloomers that end up developing into kids that can start for P5's. They wont be competitive if they lose those guys and replace them with 4th string cast offs from the P5.


https://www.si.com/college-football/2018...gan-auburn
Except his old school has to either:
1. Go on probation with a bowl ban
2. Lose their head coach.
-OR-
The player has to complete a bachelor's degree

Sorry just not anticipating a vast amount of movement.

It’s not so much that there will be tons of player movement. It’s that any G5 school that experiences a modicum of success will not only lose their successful head coach but most of their best players with no way to quickly offset the losses. With that double whammy combo, losing your coach is going to be a mini-death penalty. Like the death penalty—this a bad rule with good intentions.

The P5 runs the NCAA. What are the chances they would pass a rule that might hurt the P5 and be helpful to the G5?
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2018 12:47 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-09-2018 06:02 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
This rule change is probably needed at the P5 level, but you guys have made some good points about how devastating it could be at the G5 level. Perhaps what is needed is an exemption for G5 schools which lose their head coach - but still allow immediate movement for grad students, Bowl bans, or if the primary recruiter leaves? It's tough to balance everything, but stacking it all in favor of the school is not fair to the students.
02-11-2018 04:20 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-09-2018 03:34 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Another thing - as an economics professor who studies incentives all day - trust me, this proposal will unleash hell. Lower-tier schools will never be able to sustain success.

How would Dan Hawkins have gone 12-1 at Boise in 2002 without a senior Quarterback (who surely would have had offers after Koetter left in 2000)?

How would Cincinnati have gone to the Orange Bowl in 2008 and Sugar Bowl in 2009 if our young core had been raided when Dantonio left in 2006?

Isn't that a symptom of a greater issue, though? The constant in these hypotheticals seem to be coaching flow, not necessarily the student athlete. Upwardly mobile coach takes kids with him, new regime strips old kids, and provisos abound given specific instances.

We can say "oh, poor you" to the programs were a good coach to leave and he to strip the roster. Nobody seems to give a **** when kids get chucked out or compelled to transfer from programs for WHATEVER reason, and, really, it's the latter that is grounded in reality, not hypothetical.

I don't think the measure, were it go through, should just create this revolving-door, but, yikes...transfers typically happen for a lot of reasons, and many of them are because kids get pushed out of places for whatever reason...so, let's fix that part of it, you know? If a coach recruits you, then decides he doesn't want you, why do you assume the risk of having to sit out a year if you stay D1A or else transfer down a level? Nobody sees how that can be manipulated, and probably is and has been for some time?

And, of course...maybe we should have more ground rules with coaching and contract structures. Make it less about money and buy-outs as a challenge to mobility (which it isn't).
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2018 07:12 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
02-11-2018 07:06 AM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
If you wish to be fair to both schools n players, If school fires a coach, players can leave no sit out time. If a coach is taken by another school, ie the coach leaves, the players stay.
02-11-2018 08:59 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 08:59 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  If you wish to be fair to both schools n players, If school fires a coach, players can leave no sit out time. If a coach is taken by another school, ie the coach leaves, the players stay.

Unrealistic, IMO. Kids today sign up to play for a coach, not a school (well, in many cases at least). If the coach leaves, I don't think it's fair to bind the players more than the coaches... but maybe the solution is to require coaches to sit one year as well - unless released by the school. Call it a one year show clause for failure to honor a contract (or whatever legal terms are required). That way players and coaches have the same amount of skin in the game...
02-11-2018 09:36 AM
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RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
02-11-2018 10:46 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
Our recruiting is just now recovering from the one-and-dones. It was tough. How do you think it would have been different if we lost players to this?

We were left with no staff for bowl games. How would this affect bowls? And why would I, your star player, want to play in the GoDaddy Bowl and risk injury if I was planning to transfer to a P5 afterwards?





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02-11-2018 11:12 AM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 09:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 08:59 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  If you wish to be fair to both schools n players, If school fires a coach, players can leave no sit out time. If a coach is taken by another school, ie the coach leaves, the players stay.

Unrealistic, IMO. Kids today sign up to play for a coach, not a school (well, in many cases at least). If the coach leaves, I don't think it's fair to bind the players more than the coaches... but maybe the solution is to require coaches to sit one year as well - unless released by the school. Call it a one year show clause for failure to honor a contract (or whatever legal terms are required). That way players and coaches have the same amount of skin in the game...

No judge would allow a forced 1 year sit out without the coach being paid to sit out. Hard to image that schools would pay a coach to sit out a year when he leaves on his own.
02-11-2018 11:35 AM
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Post: #74
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.

For some reason, it’s been easier to get a waiver to play immediately in basketball. The rate of transfer has been much higher in that sport. Every kid is not going to leave, but every kid will re-evaluate his current address in a coaching change year. Additionally, I suspect other staffs will be evaluating key players on teams that experience coaching changes for players that could address areas of need.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2018 10:30 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-11-2018 12:56 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 11:35 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 09:36 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 08:59 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  If you wish to be fair to both schools n players, If school fires a coach, players can leave no sit out time. If a coach is taken by another school, ie the coach leaves, the players stay.

Unrealistic, IMO. Kids today sign up to play for a coach, not a school (well, in many cases at least). If the coach leaves, I don't think it's fair to bind the players more than the coaches... but maybe the solution is to require coaches to sit one year as well - unless released by the school. Call it a one year show clause for failure to honor a contract (or whatever legal terms are required). That way players and coaches have the same amount of skin in the game...

No judge would allow a forced 1 year sit out without the coach being paid to sit out. Hard to image that schools would pay a coach to sit out a year when he leaves on his own.

The new team would have to pay - just part of the cost of hiring a coach who is already under contract
02-11-2018 02:48 PM
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Post: #76
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 11:12 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
Our recruiting is just now recovering from the one-and-dones. It was tough. How do you think it would have been different if we lost players to this?

We were left with no staff for bowl games. How would this affect bowls? And why would I, your star player, want to play in the GoDaddy Bowl and risk injury if I was planning to transfer to a P5 afterwards?





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How many players were eligible for free transfer from Ole Miss and how many took it?

Players aren't chattel and when there is a fundamental change in the circumstances that lead them to sign they should be free to go.

Football is a teamwork sport. Penalizing a player into staying is a real team builder.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2018 03:57 PM by arkstfan.)
02-11-2018 03:55 PM
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Post: #77
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 03:55 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 11:12 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
Our recruiting is just now recovering from the one-and-dones. It was tough. How do you think it would have been different if we lost players to this?

We were left with no staff for bowl games. How would this affect bowls? And why would I, your star player, want to play in the GoDaddy Bowl and risk injury if I was planning to transfer to a P5 afterwards?





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How many players were eligible for free transfer from Ole Miss and how many took it?

Players aren't chattel and when there is a fundamental change in the circumstances that lead them to sign they should be free to go.

Football is a teamwork sport. Penalizing a player into staying is a real team builder.

(02-11-2018 03:55 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 11:12 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
Our recruiting is just now recovering from the one-and-dones. It was tough. How do you think it would have been different if we lost players to this?

We were left with no staff for bowl games. How would this affect bowls? And why would I, your star player, want to play in the GoDaddy Bowl and risk injury if I was planning to transfer to a P5 afterwards?





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

How many players were eligible for free transfer from Ole Miss and how many took it?

Players aren't chattel and when there is a fundamental change in the circumstances that lead them to sign they should be free to go.

Football is a teamwork sport. Penalizing a player into staying is a real team builder.

I'd feel better if you weren't comparing our situation with a P5 SEC West team. Not sure P5 SEC West and G5 SBC are really that comparable in that situation.

You skipped out on my bowl question.

The "players aren't chattel" is cliche and is an appeal to emotion. It answers nothing about the impacts on the sport. It jusy avoids those questions. You can just as easily say "no player should be FORCED to attend classes" I mean they are not slaves! Forcing them to make grades! Forcing them to be in a hotel room by 8! They are not chattel!



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02-11-2018 04:13 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
The replacement scholarships should only apply if there is a coaching change. A coach would not be able to run a player off just to gain a scholarship. However, I seem to remember some talk about coaches pulling scholarships. Maybe that was before the kid enrolled??

What about the kid who is, for what ever reason, is not developing under a coach? Some times the chemistry isn't there. Sometimes promises are made and don't develop.

Clemson may have a back that can run for 2000 yards in Sweeney's system. He may only be capable of 500 yards in another coaches system. What info would Dabo have that he could not get from watching a couple of game films?
02-11-2018 05:12 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 04:13 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 03:55 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 11:12 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
Our recruiting is just now recovering from the one-and-dones. It was tough. How do you think it would have been different if we lost players to this?

We were left with no staff for bowl games. How would this affect bowls? And why would I, your star player, want to play in the GoDaddy Bowl and risk injury if I was planning to transfer to a P5 afterwards?





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

How many players were eligible for free transfer from Ole Miss and how many took it?

Players aren't chattel and when there is a fundamental change in the circumstances that lead them to sign they should be free to go.

Football is a teamwork sport. Penalizing a player into staying is a real team builder.

(02-11-2018 03:55 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 11:12 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-11-2018 10:46 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Many of these answers assume players are exactly like pro sport free agents who will leap at the chance to pursue the next rung up the ladder.

There is more that goes into the equation.

If a student-athlete is engaged in campus activities, has a girlfriend, has developed a mentor relationship with a professor in their degree program, is in a fraternity, the school is close for their family to attend games, all these things play against transferring. Players develop friendships on their team.

Stampedes out just aren't likely.
Our recruiting is just now recovering from the one-and-dones. It was tough. How do you think it would have been different if we lost players to this?

We were left with no staff for bowl games. How would this affect bowls? And why would I, your star player, want to play in the GoDaddy Bowl and risk injury if I was planning to transfer to a P5 afterwards?





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

How many players were eligible for free transfer from Ole Miss and how many took it?

Players aren't chattel and when there is a fundamental change in the circumstances that lead them to sign they should be free to go.

Football is a teamwork sport. Penalizing a player into staying is a real team builder.

I'd feel better if you weren't comparing our situation with a P5 SEC West team. Not sure P5 SEC West and G5 SBC are really that comparable in that situation.

You skipped out on my bowl question.

The "players aren't chattel" is cliche and is an appeal to emotion. It answers nothing about the impacts on the sport. It jusy avoids those questions. You can just as easily say "no player should be FORCED to attend classes" I mean they are not slaves! Forcing them to make grades! Forcing them to be in a hotel room by 8! They are not chattel!



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Players are already skipping bowls to not hurt their draft chances.

There is nothing cliche about players aren't chattel. Listen to sports talk in Arkansas any time some local high school product goes to Notre Dame or Auburn. The fandom believes the mere fact of the soil where the kid goes to high school makes them the property of UA.

Players don't have to attend classes and they don't have to be players.

But when there is a fundamental change in the circumstances that brought them to a school they should be able to depart and I say that knowing that a smart coach who is hired to rebuild is going to screw over some existing players to clear the roster and recruit new players. It's a grown up business.
02-11-2018 10:22 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Proposal to let athletes transfer instantly after a coaching change picks up steam
(02-11-2018 05:12 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  What about the kid who is, for what ever reason, is not developing under a coach? Some times the chemistry isn't there. Sometimes promises are made and don't develop.

This is probably the front line of the issue, isn't it? When players aren't developing for whatever reason, and either the program no longer needs/wants the guy or the guy is peeved he's never getting off the bench, or mutual unhappiness. It does go both ways, because schools might over-commit based on the quality of the recruit, while the recruit...just might not be that good, or just not fully buy in or mesh with the intensity or culture of a program.

But, we seem to know what happens to the player if he wants to keep playing football. He's the one out of a program and either moving down or going missing for a year. The institution is no more or less impacted than were they to lose others to graduation or the draft.

Quote:Kids today sign up to play for a coach, not a school (well, in many cases at least).

And I'm one who wonders if the ones who go to play for coaches are even qualified to be enrolled at the school, because recruitment at some of these schools DO face those who know they are going to a fantastic school with sports just a hobby.

There are no easy answers. Recruitment at the Ivy League and D3 schools face challenges with their wink-and-nudge aid/award structures that miraculously look like an athletic scholarship in every way, but aren't athletic scholarships. I heard recruiting for women's hoops in the Ivy had this notorious problem of getting the recruits, and then the recruit deciding their heart wasn't into it. They don't leave the school, though...because they already have awards for merit and other things...they were brought in as students worthy enough to go to a good school who could also play a sport...the sport part goes away.

I feel for the schools over those challenges. Recruitment there is a different kind of beast altogether. Then again, sports aren't as promoted as they are at other institutions, or, are as competitive, but have the recruitment methods down to a science.
02-12-2018 05:20 AM
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