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YNot Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Big East basketball
The Big West affiliates with Sacramento St. for soccer and beach volleyball (along with CSU Bakersfield).

The Big Sky affiliates with Binghamton and Hartford for golf.

The WAC has:

- 2 affiliates for baseball (N. Colorado and Sacramento St.)
- 5 affiliates for soccer (Air Force, UNLV, SJSU, Houston Baptist, Incarnate Word)
- 3 affiliates for swimming & diving (Air Force, UNLV, Wyoming).

I'm sure the WAC, Big West, and Big Sky would welcome certain Gonzaga sports, such as baseball, soccer, volleyball, or tennis.

MPSF could house most other Olympic sports.

Gonzaga basketball only to the Big East would work. And there's no way DePaul and Butler, let alone Providence and St. John's, want to send their women's soccer team to Spokane.
02-05-2018 05:33 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Big East basketball
(02-05-2018 03:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  I can't recall seeing many fans of the Big East or its members who promote the idea of Big East expansion. Mostly outsiders. Why is that?

Because expansion for a conference only works when it makes sense for its membership. Some outsiders want to say, "Hey, a basketball-first conference. It'd be really cool to put a Wichita State, a VCU, a Gonzaga, or a St. Mary's in it." Unfortunately, there are no candidates, today, the check all of the boxes for Big East membership: Strong men's basketball program. Non-FBS. Private/Catholic. Urban location. Strong attendance/passionate fan base. East coast/Midwest location. No duplicated markets.
02-05-2018 05:47 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Big East basketball
It's a shame that Dayton's program couldn't be in Duquesne. That would be the perfect fit for the Big East. If Duquesne had a program worth a crap they would be a great fit for the Big East. Perfect bridge between the west and east schools. Good catholic metro in Pittsburgh.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2018 07:38 PM by MissouriStateBears.)
02-06-2018 07:38 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Big East basketball
Well what’s hurt Dayton the most is being surpassed by Xavier. In the 80’s, Dayton was one of the Great Independents along with Notre Dame, DePaul, and Marquette. Dayton was invited to join the basketball centric Great Midwest in the 90’s as well. At some point during their A10 tenure XU cruised on by. Dayton is a great place to watch a game too.
02-06-2018 08:03 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Online
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Post: #25
RE: Big East basketball
Dayton will always be in consideration for Big East expansion because of their institutional fit, athletic profile and fan base. They have strong attendance every year, regardless of performance. Every school has to be able to provide something to a conference if their top sport(s) is/are down. That can be geographic fit, academics, etc. Dayton checks a lot of boxes for Big East membership. Unfortunately, with regards to their location and lack of historical postseason success, there are a few that aren't.
02-06-2018 11:25 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Big East basketball
(02-06-2018 11:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Dayton will always be in consideration for Big East expansion because of their institutional fit, athletic profile and fan base. They have strong attendance every year, regardless of performance. Every school has to be able to provide something to a conference if their top sport(s) is/are down. That can be geographic fit, academics, etc. Dayton checks a lot of boxes for Big East membership. Unfortunately, with regards to their location and lack of historical postseason success, there are a few that aren't.

Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.
02-07-2018 09:33 AM
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RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 09:33 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 11:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Dayton will always be in consideration for Big East expansion because of their institutional fit, athletic profile and fan base. They have strong attendance every year, regardless of performance. Every school has to be able to provide something to a conference if their top sport(s) is/are down. That can be geographic fit, academics, etc. Dayton checks a lot of boxes for Big East membership. Unfortunately, with regards to their location and lack of historical postseason success, there are a few that aren't.

Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.

Are you trying to say that Xavier is a better brand than Cincinnati?
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2018 09:40 AM by CliftonAve.)
02-07-2018 09:39 AM
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RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 09:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:33 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 11:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Dayton will always be in consideration for Big East expansion because of their institutional fit, athletic profile and fan base. They have strong attendance every year, regardless of performance. Every school has to be able to provide something to a conference if their top sport(s) is/are down. That can be geographic fit, academics, etc. Dayton checks a lot of boxes for Big East membership. Unfortunately, with regards to their location and lack of historical postseason success, there are a few that aren't.

Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.

Are you trying to say that Xavier is a better brand than Cincinnati?

I'm saying that X's long-term goal is almost certainly to become to Ohio what Nova is to Pennsylvania (or eastern Pennsylvania at least, there isn't a good Pitt in this analogy). As it stands right now they're making significant progress in that direction, and X/Cincy are likely at worst on equal footing currently, bit with X having a leg up in conference affiliation.
02-07-2018 09:58 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Big East basketball
Interesting comments from Dave Benedict, UConn AD, on the AAC yesterday:

"We’ve got to focus on winning and competing for conference championships in the conference we’re in,” he said. “This isn’t to suggest people shouldn’t long for the days of the old Big East. I get that, and how important rivalries are. When you start talking about the rivalries we had, it’s very understandable that our fan base would long for those days. But let’s not take anything away from the remarkable amount of success [the AAC] has had in a very short period of time. The basketball is also making strides. It’s not to say we have the same type of rivalries we had in the Big East, but you can’t deny that things have improved on an annual basis in this conference. But I totally get where our fan base is coming from.”

"Everybody knows we are challenged from a budget standpoint,” Benedict said, “and the loss of the Big East dollars is just another piece that we’re going to have to deal with. I’m having conversations on a day-to-day basis with the leadership at the university and we’re working very hard to figure out what our long-term plan is."
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2018 10:08 AM by GoldenWarrior11.)
02-07-2018 10:08 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Big East basketball
well I guess those comments should fuel UConn to the BE talk for a few months
02-07-2018 10:28 AM
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RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 09:58 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:33 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 11:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Dayton will always be in consideration for Big East expansion because of their institutional fit, athletic profile and fan base. They have strong attendance every year, regardless of performance. Every school has to be able to provide something to a conference if their top sport(s) is/are down. That can be geographic fit, academics, etc. Dayton checks a lot of boxes for Big East membership. Unfortunately, with regards to their location and lack of historical postseason success, there are a few that aren't.

Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.

Are you trying to say that Xavier is a better brand than Cincinnati?

I'm saying that X's long-term goal is almost certainly to become to Ohio what Nova is to Pennsylvania (or eastern Pennsylvania at least, there isn't a good Pitt in this analogy). As it stands right now they're making significant progress in that direction, and X/Cincy are likely at worst on equal footing currently, bit with X having a leg up in conference affiliation.

Cincy is definitely the Pitt of Ohio.
02-07-2018 10:38 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 10:38 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:58 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:33 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 11:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Dayton will always be in consideration for Big East expansion because of their institutional fit, athletic profile and fan base. They have strong attendance every year, regardless of performance. Every school has to be able to provide something to a conference if their top sport(s) is/are down. That can be geographic fit, academics, etc. Dayton checks a lot of boxes for Big East membership. Unfortunately, with regards to their location and lack of historical postseason success, there are a few that aren't.

Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.

Are you trying to say that Xavier is a better brand than Cincinnati?

I'm saying that X's long-term goal is almost certainly to become to Ohio what Nova is to Pennsylvania (or eastern Pennsylvania at least, there isn't a good Pitt in this analogy). As it stands right now they're making significant progress in that direction, and X/Cincy are likely at worst on equal footing currently, bit with X having a leg up in conference affiliation.

Cincy is definitely the Pitt of Ohio.

Eh, Pitt's all the way out on the other end of Pennsylvania from Villanova, they're not really competing over the same territory/fans. Cincy/Temple are much closer equivalents, given that they both share their respective cities with X/Nova and are in the same conference. A theoretical ACC or Big 12 school in Cleveland would be the Pitt in this scenario.
02-07-2018 10:50 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 10:50 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 10:38 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:58 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:33 AM)Bogg Wrote:  Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.

Are you trying to say that Xavier is a better brand than Cincinnati?

I'm saying that X's long-term goal is almost certainly to become to Ohio what Nova is to Pennsylvania (or eastern Pennsylvania at least, there isn't a good Pitt in this analogy). As it stands right now they're making significant progress in that direction, and X/Cincy are likely at worst on equal footing currently, bit with X having a leg up in conference affiliation.

Cincy is definitely the Pitt of Ohio.

Eh, Pitt's all the way out on the other end of Pennsylvania from Villanova, they're not really competing over the same territory/fans. Cincy/Temple are much closer equivalents, given that they both share their respective cities with X/Nova and are in the same conference. A theoretical ACC or Big 12 school in Cleveland would be the Pitt in this scenario.

You're out of your element Donnie.

Ohio State and Cincinnati are the two strongest brands in the state, not XU, not Ohio or some unnamed school in the Cleveland area.

There are many metrics I could show you to support this but just one I quickly found is the CLC's top selling institutions (merchandise, gear). You'll notice that Cincinnati is #45 on that list, above a number of P5 institutions-- let alone any other school in the state not named OSU. * Yes this is from 2015, it was the easiest list to find. I know I have read things from our alumni association that has indicated our yearly merchandisee sales have even grown more in the last couple of years.

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2015/04...s-and.html

Second, to give you an indication of Cincinnati's swing in the state, UC and OSU have for the second year partnered for the Buckeyes and Bearcats Day at the Statehouse. This is forum for the schools to addressing higher learning to the state legislature. Wouldn't you think if UC wasn't all that they would have brought in some MAC school to join the OSU delegation on that day

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2015/04...s-and.html
02-07-2018 11:27 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Big East basketball
Add Massachusetts, uconn, temple, cincy, byu, and St. Louis than split into two 8 team divisions. Football only invites to Air Force, army and navy to get to 8
02-07-2018 11:36 AM
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RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 11:27 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  You're out of your element Donnie.

Ohio State and Cincinnati are the two strongest brands in the state, not XU, not Ohio or some unnamed school in the Cleveland area.

There are many metrics I could show you to support this but just one I quickly found is the CLC's top selling institutions (merchandise, gear). You'll notice that Cincinnati is #45 on that list, above a number of P5 institutions-- let alone any other school in the state not named OSU. * Yes this is from 2015, it was the easiest list to find. I know I have read things from our alumni association that has indicated our yearly merchandisee sales have even grown more in the last couple of years.

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2015/04...s-and.html

Second, to give you an indication of Cincinnati's swing in the state, UC and OSU have for the second year partnered for the Buckeyes and Bearcats Day at the Statehouse. This is forum for the schools to addressing higher learning to the state legislature. Wouldn't you think if UC wasn't all that they would have brought in some MAC school to join the OSU delegation on that day

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2015/04...s-and.html

You're confusing size of an alumni base with the quality of the basketball program - Cincinnati will always have more students than X just because of the public/private divide, and those students will continue to buy t-shirts. It's why Nova and Georgetown are beat out on that merchandise list by schools like Montana State and Louisiana-Lafayette.

However, X is coming off an Elite Eight run, which Cincy hasn't done in the last twenty years (while X has done it two other times in the intervening time), and is something like 16-9 in the crosstown shootout over the last 25. A lot depends on whether Mack is indeed a lifer at X, but they're no worse than equivalent programs right now and X has a better conference affiliation for basketball. X's goal absolutely should be to become the Villanova of Ohio.
02-07-2018 12:07 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 12:07 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 11:27 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  You're out of your element Donnie.

Ohio State and Cincinnati are the two strongest brands in the state, not XU, not Ohio or some unnamed school in the Cleveland area.

There are many metrics I could show you to support this but just one I quickly found is the CLC's top selling institutions (merchandise, gear). You'll notice that Cincinnati is #45 on that list, above a number of P5 institutions-- let alone any other school in the state not named OSU. * Yes this is from 2015, it was the easiest list to find. I know I have read things from our alumni association that has indicated our yearly merchandisee sales have even grown more in the last couple of years.

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2015/04...s-and.html

Second, to give you an indication of Cincinnati's swing in the state, UC and OSU have for the second year partnered for the Buckeyes and Bearcats Day at the Statehouse. This is forum for the schools to addressing higher learning to the state legislature. Wouldn't you think if UC wasn't all that they would have brought in some MAC school to join the OSU delegation on that day

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2015/04...s-and.html

You're confusing size of an alumni base with the quality of the basketball program - Cincinnati will always have more students than X just because of the public/private divide, and those students will continue to buy t-shirts. It's why Nova and Georgetown are beat out on that merchandise list by schools like Montana State and Louisiana-Lafayette.

However, X is coming off an Elite Eight run, which Cincy hasn't done in the last twenty years (while X has done it two other times in the intervening time), and is something like 16-9 in the crosstown shootout over the last 25. A lot depends on whether Mack is indeed a lifer at X, but they're no worse than equivalent programs right now and X has a better conference affiliation for basketball. X's goal absolutely should be to become the Villanova of Ohio.

I don't disagree XU has had a great run the past 20 years. Reading your post, I guess we are looking at this from a different perspective. My contention is that there is no comparison of the PA programs to Ohio's, because Cincinnati has a stronger branding and history vs. Xavier as compared to Temple vs. Villanova. Even if Xavier continues at the level they are currently putting on the court, they will never make UC look like the Temple of Ohio, while they are Villanova (I mean this as no disrespect to Temple).
02-07-2018 12:48 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 12:48 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I don't disagree XU has had a great run the past 20 years. Reading your post, I guess we are looking at this from a different perspective. My contention is that there is no comparison of the PA programs to Ohio's, because Cincinnati has a stronger branding and history vs. Xavier as compared to Temple vs. Villanova. Even if Xavier continues at the level they are currently putting on the court, they will never make UC look like the Temple of Ohio, while they are Villanova (I mean this as no disrespect to Temple).

Well, at this point are we discussing Cincy in relation to X or Temple? If your argument is that it's impossible for X to become the clear top basketball program in that city/area then I disagree - if Mack's a lifer they have all the ingredients necessary to be a premier program. If the argument is that Cincy will always be more relevant in Cincinnati than Temple is in Philly, then I think you're underselling Temple a bit (remember, they were one of those Class A schools in the ESPN contract as well) but it's a whole different discussion that I'm much less opinionated about.
02-07-2018 07:55 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 10:50 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 10:38 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:58 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 09:33 AM)Bogg Wrote:  Yea, Dayton would be a candidate for expansion, but I also don't think they're a clear first choice either. In the end, I think X's long-term goal is to position themselves similarly in relation to OSU/Cincy/Dayton that Nova is with PSU/Temple/St. Joe's, and putting Dayton on equal footing doesn't serve that purpose.

Are you trying to say that Xavier is a better brand than Cincinnati?

I'm saying that X's long-term goal is almost certainly to become to Ohio what Nova is to Pennsylvania (or eastern Pennsylvania at least, there isn't a good Pitt in this analogy). As it stands right now they're making significant progress in that direction, and X/Cincy are likely at worst on equal footing currently, bit with X having a leg up in conference affiliation.

Cincy is definitely the Pitt of Ohio.

Eh, Pitt's all the way out on the other end of Pennsylvania from Villanova, they're not really competing over the same territory/fans. Cincy/Temple are much closer equivalents, given that they both share their respective cities with X/Nova and are in the same conference. A theoretical ACC or Big 12 school in Cleveland would be the Pitt in this scenario.

Pitt's an odd duck out there because Philly is loaded. Pitt pretty much is the Villanova of western PA for hoops, when compared to its nearby schools, including PSU since it's so far out and up there from Philly. Academically, Pitt and Carnegie Mellon is kind of like...Penn State and Penn? The good state-related aspiring to be the private ivy/ivy-lite.

Cincy is the Pitt of Ohio for football, I'd say.

Cincy is more like the Villanova of basketball in Ohio, though. Cincy's got more banners than anyone else in the state, though, like Nova, there are others with potentially better resources at their disposal. It's a good school academically and resource-wise, but not Ohio's best.
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2018 12:15 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
02-08-2018 11:39 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Big East basketball
(02-07-2018 07:55 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 12:48 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I don't disagree XU has had a great run the past 20 years. Reading your post, I guess we are looking at this from a different perspective. My contention is that there is no comparison of the PA programs to Ohio's, because Cincinnati has a stronger branding and history vs. Xavier as compared to Temple vs. Villanova. Even if Xavier continues at the level they are currently putting on the court, they will never make UC look like the Temple of Ohio, while they are Villanova (I mean this as no disrespect to Temple).

Well, at this point are we discussing Cincy in relation to X or Temple? If your argument is that it's impossible for X to become the clear top basketball program in that city/area then I disagree - if Mack's a lifer they have all the ingredients necessary to be a premier program. If the argument is that Cincy will always be more relevant in Cincinnati than Temple is in Philly, then I think you're underselling Temple a bit (remember, they were one of those Class A schools in the ESPN contract as well) but it's a whole different discussion that I'm much less opinionated about.

X has a long way to go. Temple doesn't have the following in their city like UC does. A poll from the Cincinnati ESPN radio affiliatei:



(This post was last modified: 02-08-2018 01:13 PM by CliftonAve.)
02-08-2018 01:11 PM
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RE: Big East basketball
(02-08-2018 01:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 07:55 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 12:48 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I don't disagree XU has had a great run the past 20 years. Reading your post, I guess we are looking at this from a different perspective. My contention is that there is no comparison of the PA programs to Ohio's, because Cincinnati has a stronger branding and history vs. Xavier as compared to Temple vs. Villanova. Even if Xavier continues at the level they are currently putting on the court, they will never make UC look like the Temple of Ohio, while they are Villanova (I mean this as no disrespect to Temple).

Well, at this point are we discussing Cincy in relation to X or Temple? If your argument is that it's impossible for X to become the clear top basketball program in that city/area then I disagree - if Mack's a lifer they have all the ingredients necessary to be a premier program. If the argument is that Cincy will always be more relevant in Cincinnati than Temple is in Philly, then I think you're underselling Temple a bit (remember, they were one of those Class A schools in the ESPN contract as well) but it's a whole different discussion that I'm much less opinionated about.

X has a long way to go. Temple doesn't have the following in their city like UC does. A poll from the Cincinnati ESPN radio affiliatei:




I lived in Norwood(where Xavier is) for half my life, and whole time in Greater Cincy and Xavier has no local support. Beside the current students, they are buried in the Great Cincinnati area. Cincinnati, Kentucky and Ohio State dominate the eyeballs. As for apparel you will see more Dayton, Louisville, and Indiana gear than X, and Northern Kentucky is gaining steam on them.
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