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Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
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DawgNBama Online
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Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
The hockey thread below got me thinking. Although hockey is not very popular in the South, it does seem like lacrosse is gaining in popularity. It really stinks that there is no pro league for lacrosse, because it seems like that is the South’s answer to hockey. Still, the sport would generate more programming for the SEC Network, so it might be something to look into, but I want others’ thoughts on this idea.
02-09-2018 03:21 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
You'd think wrestling would be popular in the SEC. Lacrosse makes sense at some SEC schools (Vandy for sure, Missouri and Florida also come to mind), but not enough at others.

Consider who doesn't have it in the ACC, and how that might explain it failing to launch in the other place. Clemson, GT, Miami, VT...might be why it's not at SC, UGA, FL, and Tenn.

Heck, to call it a blue blood's sport doesn't mean a thing down south. The sport would be an obvious one in the portfolios at Rice, Tulane, Vandy, SMU, Miami...nope.
02-09-2018 04:41 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
There actually is a pro lax league with teams in the South, the MLL. It as teams in Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, and Boca Raton.

There is also an indoor lax lleague, the NLL, but it is mostly Northern or Canadian.
02-09-2018 05:15 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
Title IX is in the way on the men’s side. There is also still a relatively thin talent pool from which to recruit, but that improves every year.

I’m not sure the SEC Network really needs additional programming given how well SEC baseball and softball draw, not to mention spring football. Some of the “winter” sports like gymnastics and swimming also end later than basketball.
02-09-2018 05:27 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
If the SEC would add a men's sport, it would be cheaper to just add soccer. It, like wrestling, is less scholarships (9.9 to 12.6) and cheaper travel and recruiting budgets.

Most importantly, the SEC has never been worried about diverse athletic departments like the B1G and PAC because they can pour more $$$ into football.
02-09-2018 07:39 AM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
An SEC hockey league is far fetched, but there are some SEC schools that may give it a go. Alabama may talk too much, but their club team officials say a rink for a varsity team is coming and upgraded their club team to the highest level. UGA is making noise about upgrading to a higher level of club. Tennesesee and Kentucky have rinks in their cities that host minor league teams. UAH is the only current southern DI hockey team.
02-09-2018 08:51 AM
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Post: #7
RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
Womens LAX is starting in the American next year.
Members Include:
UConn
Temple
Cincinnati
ECU
Vanderbilt
Florida

Surprised SMU and Tulane do not have Womens LAX
02-09-2018 09:32 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 08:51 AM)NoDak Wrote:  An SEC hockey league is far fetched, but there are some SEC schools that may give it a go. Alabama may talk too much, but their club team officials say a rink for a varsity team is coming and upgraded their club team to the highest level. UGA is making noise about upgrading to a higher level of club. Tennesesee and Kentucky have rinks in their cities that host minor league teams. UAH is the only current southern DI hockey team.

I wouldn't say it's that far fetched. It won't happen next year or anything, but if the league can find about 6 willing participants then it could happen.

Bama may very well be moving in that direction. I know there have been discussions in the AD about benchmarks that need to be met. A lot of good work has already been done by the guys that run the club organization. They essentially approach recruiting like a D1 program as it stands. They can't offer scholarships, but UA's new enrollment strategies have made it a lot easier to attract kids from other regions of the country. That and they get decent crowds at their home games.

One thing to consider, if Bama adds hockey then you can bet that Auburn will at least take a long hard look at it.

An interesting wrinkle in this could be what happens with the next wave of realignment. Oklahoma is also in ACHA D1...if they join the SEC then that's potentially another member. Arkansas has also made that move so there's another prospect.

Knoxville still has a minor league team although I think the one in Lexington is defunct. Nonetheless, let's also remember that Vandy plays in what is now a pretty solid hockey market. It might be a smart investment for them.

All in all, hockey will never be as popular in the South as it is in other regions, but it's still one of the more profitable professional sports. College hockey has subsequently grown to where it's not unusual to see it on TV. That means there could be an opportunity to market our schools to people across the country. I'm not sure the folks at the SEC office are planning to capitalize on this, but if they're smart then they're at least considering it.
02-09-2018 10:02 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
Lacrosse is growing like crazy in the south and all these schools do have club programs that function in a high "virtual varsity" league called MCLA that essentially tries to run a NcAA D3 style program.

The problem of course is the combination of FB and Title IX is killing off men's sports rather than expanding them.

If there ever is lacrosse in the south it will likely be women's only which is very different from the men's game.

Of course as a fan of this fast paced hard hitting game, I'd love to see the annual A&M vs LSU men's lacrosse game be a SEC conference game
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2018 10:27 AM by 10thMountain.)
02-09-2018 10:05 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
Lacrosse will be hard to pull off anytime soon. It's grown in popularity, but it's still primarily an East Coast sport.

Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

The problem is that the way soccer talent is typically developed is more about getting kids into academies at a young age, working with them, and ultimately turning them pro at a very young age.

I know college soccer is still relevant as far as producing players for MLS, but that might change in the coming years as more athletes engage in the sport. Thing is, if you're a decent soccer player then there are professional opportunities literally all over the globe so maybe you don't limit yourself to the traditional path of a college athlete in the US.

All in all, I'm not sure it would really pay dividends for the SEC at this point in time. We'd have to pick up another Women's sport which would increase the cost. We'd have to do that for any new sport, but it means we should really be focused on something that would increase our profiles.
02-09-2018 10:16 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
Lax is huge in the Mid-Atlantic (Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, North Carolina). Not sure how well it would do in SEC country though.
02-09-2018 10:22 AM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 04:41 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You'd think wrestling would be popular in the SEC. Lacrosse makes sense at some SEC schools (Vandy for sure, Missouri and Florida also come to mind), but not enough at others.

Consider who doesn't have it in the ACC, and how that might explain it failing to launch in the other place. Clemson, GT, Miami, VT...might be why it's not at SC, UGA, FL, and Tenn.

Heck, to call it a blue blood's sport doesn't mean a thing down south. The sport would be an obvious one in the portfolios at Rice, Tulane, Vandy, SMU, Miami...nope.

Wrestling was once very popular among some SEC schools. Auburn once had a nationally ranked wrestling program, not quite on par with Iowa and Oklahoma State but ranked.

In the SEC wrestling was the victim of Title IX. Since the sport was non-revenue it was the perfect men's sport to sacrifice to cover the women without having to jack up athletic expenses too much.

As to lacrosse, it is only played in a few upscale private schools in large cities in most of the SEC states. I can see it gain traction if the parents of those kids donate enough to get it started. But it has little to no interest from the general public.
02-09-2018 01:21 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 03:21 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  The hockey thread below got me thinking. Although hockey is not very popular in the South, it does seem like lacrosse is gaining in popularity. It really stinks that there is no pro league for lacrosse, because it seems like that is the South’s answer to hockey. Still, the sport would generate more programming for the SEC Network, so it might be something to look into, but I want others’ thoughts on this idea.

I always viewed College Baseball as the South's regional sport like College Hockey is the Northeast and Midwest's regional sport.

Lacrosse is very popular in the the Northeast, I thought it was popular in the Midwest as well.
02-09-2018 01:50 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 10:16 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

I had no idea the SEC did not have a men's soccer program. The ACC has one more men's sport than the SEC, more if you count sports that the majority of the league does not play (wrestling:6, lacrosse:5, fencing:4). This despite the SEC having much more massive athletic revenues vs. ACC top to bottom. More women's programs than the SEC, too, so it's not all title IX.

Any idea why the SEC doesn't field more programs like men's soccer or wrestling since it seems they could well afford to?
02-09-2018 03:17 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 03:17 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:16 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

I had no idea the SEC did not have a men's soccer program. The ACC has one more men's sport than the SEC, more if you count sports that the majority of the league does not play (wrestling:6, lacrosse:5, fencing:4). This despite the SEC having much more massive athletic revenues vs. ACC top to bottom. More women's programs than the SEC, too, so it's not all title IX.

Any idea why the SEC doesn't field more programs like men's soccer or wrestling since it seems they could well afford to?

My opinion? It's more a matter of return on investment.

I know the other major conferences sponsor more sports than we do, but for the most part I'm not sure why some of these leagues really go all out to field large numbers of programs that can't generate revenue. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I'm just not what there is to gain.

Most SEC schools have pretty much the same sports profile with a just a few exceptions here and there. On this list you'll see what we sponsor as well as which sports the individual schools offer that the conference does not.

Breakdown of sports that the SEC sponsors

From what I've read, Roy Kramer(former SEC commish) basically sat everyone down in the old days and laid out a philosophy for how the SEC would go about deciding which sports to sponsor. He basically said that we should be able to compete for national championships in everything we dip our hand into. And thus if we feel that we wouldn't be competitive at the highest levels of a particular sport then we would put that on the back burner.

Of course, a lot has changed in the last 30 years and today the SEC could probably compete at a high level in several other sports that we don't sponsor, but the question then becomes return on investment. What do you gain by investing millions in a particular sport and does it help promote the school or the league?

These days, I think it's all about television. If you can turn something into a decent TV sport then you can promote the school or at least have content for a conference network. If not then perhaps any new sports would simply siphon off resources from things that could pay dividends. The equation is probably a little different for every school and so that's probably why you see some schools offer sports that the league does not sponsor.

The only thing the league has added in recent years is Equestrian which ironically enough is not something that a lot of schools compete in nationally. I don't think the NCAA even sponsors it actually.
02-09-2018 04:12 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 03:17 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:16 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

I had no idea the SEC did not have a men's soccer program. The ACC has one more men's sport than the SEC, more if you count sports that the majority of the league does not play (wrestling:6, lacrosse:5, fencing:4). This despite the SEC having much more massive athletic revenues vs. ACC top to bottom. More women's programs than the SEC, too, so it's not all title IX.

Any idea why the SEC doesn't field more programs like men's soccer or wrestling since it seems they could well afford to?

Most of the high schools in the region don't offer men's soccer. Florida might? But the short answer to your question is lack of public interest. Does Virginia Tech sponsor Equestrian?
02-09-2018 06:03 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 04:12 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 03:17 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:16 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

I had no idea the SEC did not have a men's soccer program. The ACC has one more men's sport than the SEC, more if you count sports that the majority of the league does not play (wrestling:6, lacrosse:5, fencing:4). This despite the SEC having much more massive athletic revenues vs. ACC top to bottom. More women's programs than the SEC, too, so it's not all title IX.

Any idea why the SEC doesn't field more programs like men's soccer or wrestling since it seems they could well afford to?

My opinion? It's more a matter of return on investment.

I know the other major conferences sponsor more sports than we do, but for the most part I'm not sure why some of these leagues really go all out to field large numbers of programs that can't generate revenue. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I'm just not what there is to gain.

Most SEC schools have pretty much the same sports profile with a just a few exceptions here and there. On this list you'll see what we sponsor as well as which sports the individual schools offer that the conference does not.

Breakdown of sports that the SEC sponsors

From what I've read, Roy Kramer(former SEC commish) basically sat everyone down in the old days and laid out a philosophy for how the SEC would go about deciding which sports to sponsor. He basically said that we should be able to compete for national championships in everything we dip our hand into. And thus if we feel that we wouldn't be competitive at the highest levels of a particular sport then we would put that on the back burner.

Of course, a lot has changed in the last 30 years and today the SEC could probably compete at a high level in several other sports that we don't sponsor, but the question then becomes return on investment. What do you gain by investing millions in a particular sport and does it help promote the school or the league?

These days, I think it's all about television. If you can turn something into a decent TV sport then you can promote the school or at least have content for a conference network. If not then perhaps any new sports would simply siphon off resources from things that could pay dividends. The equation is probably a little different for every school and so that's probably why you see some schools offer sports that the league does not sponsor.

The only thing the league has added in recent years is Equestrian which ironically enough is not something that a lot of schools compete in nationally. I don't think the NCAA even sponsors it actually.

An ACC fan groaning about the SEC not offering Men's Soccer, Fencing, or Lacrosse is a lot like the Polish claiming to have the best horse soldiers and biplanes in WWII. When you are up against what counts (mechanized armor and ME109's & YAKs what difference does it make? What counts in the SEC are Football, Basketball (men's), Baseball, and women's Softball. Those are the sports that pay the bills for Track & Field (indoor and outdoor), women's Basketball, Swimming and Diving (men's and women's), Tennis & Golf (mens and womens) and Equestrian, Crew, Bass Fishing, etc, depending upon the school.

BTW: Can you imagine how fast Lacrosse would come to a screeching halt if Alabama and Auburn encouraged their third string football players to pick up the game. Jim Brown for Syracuse was just as much a stud on the Lacrosse Field as he was on the Gridiron. The children of the wine & cheese crowds would run and hide if the SEC decided to crash the Lacrosse party for the upwardly mobile upper middle class.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2018 06:14 PM by JRsec.)
02-09-2018 06:10 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 06:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 04:12 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 03:17 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:16 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

I had no idea the SEC did not have a men's soccer program. The ACC has one more men's sport than the SEC, more if you count sports that the majority of the league does not play (wrestling:6, lacrosse:5, fencing:4). This despite the SEC having much more massive athletic revenues vs. ACC top to bottom. More women's programs than the SEC, too, so it's not all title IX.

Any idea why the SEC doesn't field more programs like men's soccer or wrestling since it seems they could well afford to?

My opinion? It's more a matter of return on investment.

I know the other major conferences sponsor more sports than we do, but for the most part I'm not sure why some of these leagues really go all out to field large numbers of programs that can't generate revenue. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I'm just not what there is to gain.

Most SEC schools have pretty much the same sports profile with a just a few exceptions here and there. On this list you'll see what we sponsor as well as which sports the individual schools offer that the conference does not.

Breakdown of sports that the SEC sponsors

From what I've read, Roy Kramer(former SEC commish) basically sat everyone down in the old days and laid out a philosophy for how the SEC would go about deciding which sports to sponsor. He basically said that we should be able to compete for national championships in everything we dip our hand into. And thus if we feel that we wouldn't be competitive at the highest levels of a particular sport then we would put that on the back burner.

Of course, a lot has changed in the last 30 years and today the SEC could probably compete at a high level in several other sports that we don't sponsor, but the question then becomes return on investment. What do you gain by investing millions in a particular sport and does it help promote the school or the league?

These days, I think it's all about television. If you can turn something into a decent TV sport then you can promote the school or at least have content for a conference network. If not then perhaps any new sports would simply siphon off resources from things that could pay dividends. The equation is probably a little different for every school and so that's probably why you see some schools offer sports that the league does not sponsor.

The only thing the league has added in recent years is Equestrian which ironically enough is not something that a lot of schools compete in nationally. I don't think the NCAA even sponsors it actually.

An ACC fan groaning about the SEC not offering Men's Soccer, Fencing, or Lacrosse is a lot like the Polish claiming to have the best horse soldiers and biplanes in WWII. When you are up against what counts (mechanized armor and ME109's & YAKs what difference does it make? What counts in the SEC are Football, Basketball (men's), Baseball, and women's Softball. Those are the sports that pay the bills for Track & Field (indoor and outdoor), women's Basketball, Swimming and Diving (men's and women's), Tennis & Golf (mens and womens) and Equestrian, Crew, Bass Fishing, etc, depending upon the school.

BTW: Can you imagine how fast Lacrosse would come to a screeching halt if Alabama and Auburn encouraged their third string football players to pick up the game. Jim Brown for Syracuse was just as much a stud on the Lacrosse Field as he was on the Gridiron. The children of the wine & cheese crowds would run and hide if the SEC decided to crash the Lacrosse party for the upwardly mobile upper middle class.

Who was groaning? I was genuinely curious. Soccer is the 2nd most popular youth sport and the 5th most popular college sport. Twice as many soccer players in college vs cross country, 3x the players of golf and tennis. Surely there are a lot of youth soccer players who grow up wanting to go to an SEC school but go elsewhere because soccer isn't offered.
02-09-2018 07:22 PM
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RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 07:22 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 06:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 04:12 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 03:17 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 10:16 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Men's soccer would be an interesting prospect. We've already got Women's soccer at every school, I believe, so the basic facilities already exist.

I had no idea the SEC did not have a men's soccer program. The ACC has one more men's sport than the SEC, more if you count sports that the majority of the league does not play (wrestling:6, lacrosse:5, fencing:4). This despite the SEC having much more massive athletic revenues vs. ACC top to bottom. More women's programs than the SEC, too, so it's not all title IX.

Any idea why the SEC doesn't field more programs like men's soccer or wrestling since it seems they could well afford to?

My opinion? It's more a matter of return on investment.

I know the other major conferences sponsor more sports than we do, but for the most part I'm not sure why some of these leagues really go all out to field large numbers of programs that can't generate revenue. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I'm just not what there is to gain.

Most SEC schools have pretty much the same sports profile with a just a few exceptions here and there. On this list you'll see what we sponsor as well as which sports the individual schools offer that the conference does not.

Breakdown of sports that the SEC sponsors

From what I've read, Roy Kramer(former SEC commish) basically sat everyone down in the old days and laid out a philosophy for how the SEC would go about deciding which sports to sponsor. He basically said that we should be able to compete for national championships in everything we dip our hand into. And thus if we feel that we wouldn't be competitive at the highest levels of a particular sport then we would put that on the back burner.

Of course, a lot has changed in the last 30 years and today the SEC could probably compete at a high level in several other sports that we don't sponsor, but the question then becomes return on investment. What do you gain by investing millions in a particular sport and does it help promote the school or the league?

These days, I think it's all about television. If you can turn something into a decent TV sport then you can promote the school or at least have content for a conference network. If not then perhaps any new sports would simply siphon off resources from things that could pay dividends. The equation is probably a little different for every school and so that's probably why you see some schools offer sports that the league does not sponsor.

The only thing the league has added in recent years is Equestrian which ironically enough is not something that a lot of schools compete in nationally. I don't think the NCAA even sponsors it actually.

An ACC fan groaning about the SEC not offering Men's Soccer, Fencing, or Lacrosse is a lot like the Polish claiming to have the best horse soldiers and biplanes in WWII. When you are up against what counts (mechanized armor and ME109's & YAKs what difference does it make? What counts in the SEC are Football, Basketball (men's), Baseball, and women's Softball. Those are the sports that pay the bills for Track & Field (indoor and outdoor), women's Basketball, Swimming and Diving (men's and women's), Tennis & Golf (mens and womens) and Equestrian, Crew, Bass Fishing, etc, depending upon the school.

BTW: Can you imagine how fast Lacrosse would come to a screeching halt if Alabama and Auburn encouraged their third string football players to pick up the game. Jim Brown for Syracuse was just as much a stud on the Lacrosse Field as he was on the Gridiron. The children of the wine & cheese crowds would run and hide if the SEC decided to crash the Lacrosse party for the upwardly mobile upper middle class.

Who was groaning? I was genuinely curious. Soccer is the 2nd most popular youth sport and the 5th most popular college sport. Twice as many soccer players in college vs cross country, 3x the players of golf and tennis. Surely there are a lot of youth soccer players who grow up wanting to go to an SEC school but go elsewhere because soccer isn't offered.

Quite possibly. But the women who play at the high school level are bountiful. I can't recall a single article about boy's soccer programs in most of the Southern towns in Georgia and Alabama outside of places like Atlanta and some upscale private schools.

I have nothing against men's soccer. I'm just not sure we have a supply of high school players to draw from. But you are right that more municipalities are going toward soccer if for no other reason than equipping it is much cheaper than equipping youth football. In the deep South in high school the sports are Football then baseball and basketball is what you do in between them. Baseball dominates the Summer and late Spring. I played basketball back in the day because the football coach made me. I played baseball because I loved it!

The only time we ever played soccer was at P.E. and it was played on the football field with the two posts of the football goal serving as the open space you had to kick it through to score. As you might well imagine the football field was crowned for drainage so getting a soccer ball to just stay on the field was a chore. But mostly we played a homemade variation. It was a game that would be surely banned today. It was full contact tackle without pads and it too involved a soccer ball. The biggest difference is that you could run with, pass, or kick the ball through the goal and it was continuous action except for out of bounds kicks. It was like scrumless rugby defended like football and extremely oriented toward contact, but it was crazy fun!
02-09-2018 08:15 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Could the SEC start its own lacrosse league??
(02-09-2018 10:02 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(02-09-2018 08:51 AM)NoDak Wrote:  An SEC hockey league is far fetched, but there are some SEC schools that may give it a go. Alabama may talk too much, but their club team officials say a rink for a varsity team is coming and upgraded their club team to the highest level. UGA is making noise about upgrading to a higher level of club. Tennesesee and Kentucky have rinks in their cities that host minor league teams. UAH is the only current southern DI hockey team.

I wouldn't say it's that far fetched. It won't happen next year or anything, but if the league can find about 6 willing participants then it could happen.

Bama may very well be moving in that direction. I know there have been discussions in the AD about benchmarks that need to be met. A lot of good work has already been done by the guys that run the club organization. They essentially approach recruiting like a D1 program as it stands. They can't offer scholarships, but UA's new enrollment strategies have made it a lot easier to attract kids from other regions of the country. That and they get decent crowds at their home games.

One thing to consider, if Bama adds hockey then you can bet that Auburn will at least take a long hard look at it.

An interesting wrinkle in this could be what happens with the next wave of realignment. Oklahoma is also in ACHA D1...if they join the SEC then that's potentially another member. Arkansas has also made that move so there's another prospect.

Knoxville still has a minor league team although I think the one in Lexington is defunct. Nonetheless, let's also remember that Vandy plays in what is now a pretty solid hockey market. It might be a smart investment for them.

All in all, hockey will never be as popular in the South as it is in other regions, but it's still one of the more profitable professional sports. College hockey has subsequently grown to where it's not unusual to see it on TV. That means there could be an opportunity to market our schools to people across the country. I'm not sure the folks at the SEC office are planning to capitalize on this, but if they're smart then they're at least considering it.
Would love to see it happen, but five or six schools adding it at the same time would amost be a miracle. Iowa State has not even added a varsity program and they have had a top club program for more than 20 years.
02-09-2018 08:21 PM
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