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What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #21
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
That's crazy they had the votes to return to the ACC and turned it down.
02-22-2018 12:03 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #22
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 12:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I would be interested in knowing is which four ACC teams voted for Syracuse in Corrigan's straw vote.

Well, it was just the AD's from what I understand, and not the presidents. Just a guess:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UVA

FSU - Clemson, UMD, GT, NCSU

Although, Maryland had long ties with Syracuse and GT could have gone either way. I think we'd have to look at who the AD's were at the time and which ones were more football-minded or football-influenced. I'm pretty sure UNC, Duke, and Wake were against expansion with FSU, and the final vote was 6-2. I think I remember Wake finally switching to a "yes", but I could be wrong.

After a little digging, it seems most likely:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UMD

FSU - Clemson, GT, NCSU, UVA

I've now read that Duke and Wake were the two most against FSU and that Duke and Maryland were. So who knows?

"Corrigan woke up on Sept. 12, 1990 certain he had the six votes necessary to move ahead and expand. Duke and Maryland, he knew, would cast the only no votes. He was even more certain that if the league agreed on expansion, adding Florida State would be nothing more than a formality.

In a matter of minutes, Corrigan saw all the hard work on the delicate issue come apart. Clemson, Georgia Tech and Virginia, the strongest supporters on the issue and FSU all along, voted for expansion. Duke and Maryland voted against, but to Corrigan's surprise, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest abstained; the equivalent of three no votes."
02-22-2018 12:13 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #23
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 12:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 12:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I would be interested in knowing is which four ACC teams voted for Syracuse in Corrigan's straw vote.

Well, it was just the AD's from what I understand, and not the presidents. Just a guess:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UVA

FSU - Clemson, UMD, GT, NCSU

Although, Maryland had long ties with Syracuse and GT could have gone either way. I think we'd have to look at who the AD's were at the time and which ones were more football-minded or football-influenced. I'm pretty sure UNC, Duke, and Wake were against expansion with FSU, and the final vote was 6-2. I think I remember Wake finally switching to a "yes", but I could be wrong.

After a little digging, it seems most likely:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UMD

FSU - Clemson, GT, NCSU, UVA

I've now read that Duke and Wake were the two most against FSU and that Duke and Maryland were. So who knows?

"Corrigan woke up on Sept. 12, 1990 certain he had the six votes necessary to move ahead and expand. Duke and Maryland, he knew, would cast the only no votes. He was even more certain that if the league agreed on expansion, adding Florida State would be nothing more than a formality.

In a matter of minutes, Corrigan saw all the hard work on the delicate issue come apart. Clemson, Georgia Tech and Virginia, the strongest supporters on the issue and FSU all along, voted for expansion. Duke and Maryland voted against, but to Corrigan's surprise, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest abstained; the equivalent of three no votes."

In other words, in 1990, the ACC was far closer to failing to invite Florida State than they were to adding FSU plus 3 more schools.

And if the ACC had failed to invite Florida State, and FSU had then gone on to join the SEC... that would have started a chain of dominoes falling that probably would not have turned out well for the ACC.
02-22-2018 01:31 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #24
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 10:30 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.

Thanks for sharing. So maybe there wasn't really any bad blood. But by the early '90s, SC must have preferred SEC membership over reconciliation with the ACC.
02-22-2018 01:48 PM
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NJ2MDTerp Offline
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Post: #25
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 10:30 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.
See line item 16 for information pertaining to the 1976 attempt:

http://media.clemson.edu/bot/minutes/1976/19760619.pdf
02-22-2018 02:16 PM
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NJ2MDTerp Offline
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Post: #26
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 12:03 PM)solohawks Wrote:  That's crazy they had the votes to return to the ACC and turned it down.
I read somewhere that South Carolina's pride got in the way of returning to the ACC. I understand that the ACC wanted to punish and publicly humiliate South Carolina in exchange for readmission.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2018 02:23 PM by NJ2MDTerp.)
02-22-2018 02:21 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #27
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 01:31 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 12:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 12:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I would be interested in knowing is which four ACC teams voted for Syracuse in Corrigan's straw vote.

Well, it was just the AD's from what I understand, and not the presidents. Just a guess:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UVA

FSU - Clemson, UMD, GT, NCSU

Although, Maryland had long ties with Syracuse and GT could have gone either way. I think we'd have to look at who the AD's were at the time and which ones were more football-minded or football-influenced. I'm pretty sure UNC, Duke, and Wake were against expansion with FSU, and the final vote was 6-2. I think I remember Wake finally switching to a "yes", but I could be wrong.

After a little digging, it seems most likely:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UMD

FSU - Clemson, GT, NCSU, UVA

I've now read that Duke and Wake were the two most against FSU and that Duke and Maryland were. So who knows?

"Corrigan woke up on Sept. 12, 1990 certain he had the six votes necessary to move ahead and expand. Duke and Maryland, he knew, would cast the only no votes. He was even more certain that if the league agreed on expansion, adding Florida State would be nothing more than a formality.

In a matter of minutes, Corrigan saw all the hard work on the delicate issue come apart. Clemson, Georgia Tech and Virginia, the strongest supporters on the issue and FSU all along, voted for expansion. Duke and Maryland voted against, but to Corrigan's surprise, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest abstained; the equivalent of three no votes."

In other words, in 1990, the ACC was far closer to failing to invite Florida State than they were to adding FSU plus 3 more schools.

And if the ACC had failed to invite Florida State, and FSU had then gone on to join the SEC... that would have started a chain of dominoes falling that probably would not have turned out well for the ACC.

Just as is the case in politics, a "no" vote doesn't necessarily mean that the voter is opposed to the issue. Often it means "what will you give me if I change my vote to "yes"?". And I don't mean to imply this is a bad thing to do. It may just be that the process of finding consensus is still going on. The trick is knowing when you have already gotten all you are going to get.
02-22-2018 02:24 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #28
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
There's too many variables to this. Florida State was probably a lock, but, what would have happened if Penn State didn't have the votes for the Big Ten? How is Florida State looking now with Penn State, with them probably shilling for Syracuse, BC, and maybe Pitt and Rutgers? Would someone have made sure a Florida school was locked in? FSU or Miami?

Does Notre Dame factor into this if Penn State and other eastern schools now aligned to this even bigger ACC?

Does this cause Maryland to up and leave...and where do they go? And who goes with them? IIRC, UMD wasn't keen on a lot of the expansion choices over the years...?
02-22-2018 02:35 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #29
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 02:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:30 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.
See line item 16 for information pertaining to the 1976 attempt:

http://media.clemson.edu/bot/minutes/1976/19760619.pdf

Is there any public report indicating what all the conditions the conference required for reentry were?
02-22-2018 02:39 PM
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NJ2MDTerp Offline
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Post: #30
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 02:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:30 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.
See line item 16 for information pertaining to the 1976 attempt:

http://media.clemson.edu/bot/minutes/1976/19760619.pdf
Here's a reaffirmation of Clemson support (Line item #3) for the readmission of South Carolina in wake of Georgia Tech admission to the ACC:

http://media.clemson.edu/bot/Minutes/1978/19780323.pdf
02-22-2018 07:54 PM
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NJ2MDTerp Offline
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Post: #31
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 02:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 02:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:30 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.
See line item 16 for information pertaining to the 1976 attempt:

http://media.clemson.edu/bot/minutes/1976/19760619.pdf

Is there any public report indicating what all the conditions the conference required for reentry were?
I'm not aware of any public report. But I read the ACC was punitive towards South Carolina. Here's what I found in the the Garnet and Black.

https://www.garnetandblackattack.com/201...a-timeline

Quote:1976 - secret negotiations between the ACC and South Carolina break down when the ACC demands a hefty "re-entry" fee. McGuire supported re-entry because our basketball fortunes had slid rapidly in the years following our departure. Carlen, however, opposed re-entry because the football team was enjoying on the field success - and accompanying financial rewards - playing as an independent; Carlen felt returning to the ACC would have a negative financial impact without any upside in terms of competition. Eventually, a divided Board of Trustees, combined with the ACC's ungracious demand for a substantial cash payment, all contributed to deny us a detente with our former conference mates. Eventually, we would join the Metro Conference, but that was small potatoes compared to the ACC glory days we forfeited. Had we been able to return to the ACC, we could have reversed the mistake of 1971.
02-22-2018 08:05 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #32
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
Late 70’s: the great Frank McGuire wanted back in the ACC and the football guys wanted independence. That’s just the way college athletics were back then. There was panic after GT joined the ACC and a few years later SC joined the Metro (a strange marriage of convenience).

In 1990 there wasn’t even a mention of SC to the ACC. I can’t remember without looking it up, but I don’t think they were shattering records in either sport. The SEC liked them because it was a new market and an established brand—which there weren’t many choices for their east division so SC was right place right time. Eddie Fogler righted the ship in hoops in the 90’s and then old Odom had a few good years. I’ve long thought that SC and Arkansas should be UK’s main challengers for the SEC every year. Well, you can throw Mizzou in that category now as well.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2018 08:58 PM by esayem.)
02-22-2018 08:58 PM
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Post: #33
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
From what I've seen on here it looks like a 1991 12-team ACC would have the following schools under consideration:

Florida St, Miami, Syracuse, Pitt, BC

if they were wise enough to see the potential in taking both Florida schools. If they leave out Miami and take the 3 Big East schools think it radically changes everything.

Big East football never starts. The BE trio probably start as affiliates before becoming full members. When they do leave the Big East it probably causes turmoil for northeastern football.

I also think it causes the 3 A-10 football schools and Miami to look hard at the Metro.

Rutgers
Temple
WVU
VT
Cincy
L'ville
Memphis
Tulane
USM
Miami
02-22-2018 09:59 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
According to an article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch in July of 1990 the ACC initially considered 10 schools:

Navy (they must have considered 12 w/ football-only members)
Pitt
Syracuse
South Carolina
FSU
Miami
West Virginia
BC
Rutgers
Virginia Tech
02-22-2018 10:15 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #35
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 02:24 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 01:31 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 12:13 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 12:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I would be interested in knowing is which four ACC teams voted for Syracuse in Corrigan's straw vote.

Well, it was just the AD's from what I understand, and not the presidents. Just a guess:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UVA

FSU - Clemson, UMD, GT, NCSU

Although, Maryland had long ties with Syracuse and GT could have gone either way. I think we'd have to look at who the AD's were at the time and which ones were more football-minded or football-influenced. I'm pretty sure UNC, Duke, and Wake were against expansion with FSU, and the final vote was 6-2. I think I remember Wake finally switching to a "yes", but I could be wrong.

After a little digging, it seems most likely:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UMD

FSU - Clemson, GT, NCSU, UVA

I've now read that Duke and Wake were the two most against FSU and that Duke and Maryland were. So who knows?

"Corrigan woke up on Sept. 12, 1990 certain he had the six votes necessary to move ahead and expand. Duke and Maryland, he knew, would cast the only no votes. He was even more certain that if the league agreed on expansion, adding Florida State would be nothing more than a formality.

In a matter of minutes, Corrigan saw all the hard work on the delicate issue come apart. Clemson, Georgia Tech and Virginia, the strongest supporters on the issue and FSU all along, voted for expansion. Duke and Maryland voted against, but to Corrigan's surprise, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest abstained; the equivalent of three no votes."

In other words, in 1990, the ACC was far closer to failing to invite Florida State than they were to adding FSU plus 3 more schools.

And if the ACC had failed to invite Florida State, and FSU had then gone on to join the SEC... that would have started a chain of dominoes falling that probably would not have turned out well for the ACC.

Just as is the case in politics, a "no" vote doesn't necessarily mean that the voter is opposed to the issue. Often it means "what will you give me if I change my vote to "yes"?". And I don't mean to imply this is a bad thing to do. It may just be that the process of finding consensus is still going on. The trick is knowing when you have already gotten all you are going to get.

What does that mean?

According to that report, the realistic possibilities at the time of that vote were (1) no invitations, (2) invite FSU, (3) invite Syracuse. Cuse could have received the invitation if its AD hadn't been too clever by trying to play hard to get. And inviting 4 new members was never on the table. So my previous statement was correct: In 1990, the ACC was far closer to not inviting FSU than they were to inviting FSU plus 3 more.
02-22-2018 10:24 PM
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Post: #36
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 09:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  From what I've seen on here it looks like a 1991 12-team ACC would have the following schools under consideration:

Florida St, Miami, Syracuse, Pitt, BC

if they were wise enough to see the potential in taking both Florida schools. If they leave out Miami and take the 3 Big East schools think it radically changes everything.

Big East football never starts. The BE trio probably start as affiliates before becoming full members. When they do leave the Big East it probably causes turmoil for northeastern football.

I also think it causes the 3 A-10 football schools and Miami to look hard at the Metro.

Rutgers
Temple
WVU
VT
Cincy
L'ville
Memphis
Tulane
USM
Miami

Maybe the A-10 adds football early instead of the Big East.
02-22-2018 10:26 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #37
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 10:15 PM)esayem Wrote:  According to an article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch in July of 1990 the ACC initially considered 10 schools:

Navy (they must have considered 12 w/ football-only members)
Pitt
Syracuse
South Carolina
FSU
Miami
West Virginia
BC
Rutgers
Virginia Tech

Ha! That same article mentions the ACC would only consider full-members, so g'bye Navy. David Robinson isn't walking through that door again.

Also, by August 1st, 1990 it was a foregone conclusion Florida State was joining Arkansas in the SEC.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2018 10:35 PM by esayem.)
02-22-2018 10:34 PM
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Post: #38
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
Face it: the Big mistake made by the ACC was when it was formed... Schools in other states should never have agreed to 4 teams in NC. That decision distorted every one that followed.
02-23-2018 04:45 AM
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Post: #39
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 02:21 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 12:03 PM)solohawks Wrote:  That's crazy they had the votes to return to the ACC and turned it down.
I read somewhere that South Carolina's pride got in the way of returning to the ACC. I understand that the ACC wanted to punish and publicly humiliate South Carolina in exchange for readmission.

The ACC wanted to give South Carolina a reduced number of tournament tickets for a period of years upon return, a condition that South Carolina found unacceptable and embarrassing.
02-23-2018 05:24 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #40
RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 08:05 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 02:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 02:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:30 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.
See line item 16 for information pertaining to the 1976 attempt:

http://media.clemson.edu/bot/minutes/1976/19760619.pdf

Is there any public report indicating what all the conditions the conference required for reentry were?
I'm not aware of any public report. But I read the ACC was punitive towards South Carolina. Here's what I found in the the Garnet and Black.

https://www.garnetandblackattack.com/201...a-timeline

Quote:1976 - secret negotiations between the ACC and South Carolina break down when the ACC demands a hefty "re-entry" fee. McGuire supported re-entry because our basketball fortunes had slid rapidly in the years following our departure. Carlen, however, opposed re-entry because the football team was enjoying on the field success - and accompanying financial rewards - playing as an independent; Carlen felt returning to the ACC would have a negative financial impact without any upside in terms of competition. Eventually, a divided Board of Trustees, combined with the ACC's ungracious demand for a substantial cash payment, all contributed to deny us a detente with our former conference mates. Eventually, we would join the Metro Conference, but that was small potatoes compared to the ACC glory days we forfeited. Had we been able to return to the ACC, we could have reversed the mistake of 1971.

I have been told the re-entry fee demanded was $1 Million (a lot at the time) and that South Carolina had reluctantly agreed to pay, but it was the tournament ticket slight that was the deal breaker.
02-23-2018 05:31 AM
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