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What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
1991 was the first big watershed realignment year. The SEC added South Carolina and Arkansas, the ACC added Florida St, the Big Ten added Penn St around that time, and the Big East started football adding full member Miami and a gaggle of affiliates.

But what if the 8 member ACC had seen the potential of 12 team league and gone to 12 then rather than waiting to 2004-2005 to do so?

Let's say they grab Florida St and Miami. To fill the other two spots they have what I'd consider 3 good options: South Carolina, VT, and WVU. keeping the SEC out of the Carolinas would be prudent if the Gamecocks could be convinced the ACC was the better option.

What does that mean elsewhere? If South Carolina returns to their ACC roots the SEC needs a different 12th and probably grabs another from the SWC, further hastening the demise of the SWC and likely getting someone like BYU, TCU, or Houston in the Big 12.

Big East members BC, Pitt, and Syracuse have to look elsewhere to build their football league. Rutgers and Temple are still there and maybe WVU out of the A-10. I think they have to resort to Metro schools to fill out the rest, that is if the Metro doesn't try to do their own football league. If the Metro group has VT, Cincy, Louisville, Memphis, Tulane, and USM they might be able to force the northeastern schools to join their league rather than the other way around.
02-21-2018 06:48 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
I doubt SC would go for the ACC, considering the circumstances of their departure and the fact that the SEC desired them. VT would have been a good choice. If at that time they're willing to add Miami, with such a poor basketball pedigree until then, why not VT? WV might be problematic due to academics. Wasn't Syracuse considered?
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2018 07:01 PM by Nerdlinger.)
02-21-2018 06:52 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
Possibly a football-only alliance with Syracuse, BC, or Pitt? The ACC and Miami had some mutual interest, but it was hard enough to convince the old heads to admit FSU.

I read an article from the 70’s that Virginia Tech was applying like every year and it took the ACC admitting GT to get them to move on. Also, Southern Miss applied in either the 60’s or 70’s. I though that was random.
02-21-2018 07:02 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 06:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  I doubt SC would go for the ACC, considering the circumstances of their departure and the fact that the SEC desired them. VT would have been a good choice. If at that time they're willing to add Miami, with such a poor basketball pedigree until then, why not VT?

I knew I could count on you to comment.

So if Bad blood keeps South Carolina out of the ACC would you say that FSU, Miami, VT, and WVU are the best 4 to go with, athletics not being a factor?

Or do they still try to pluck some northeastern members? Syracuse and BC were the original northeastern targets in 2004. Would they have been lured away from Big East basketball by an ACC offer?
02-21-2018 07:05 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 07:02 PM)esayem Wrote:  Possibly a football-only alliance with Syracuse, BC, or Pitt? The ACC and Miami had some mutual interest, but it was hard enough to convince the old heads to admit FSU.

I read an article from the 70’s that Virginia Tech was applying like every year and it took the ACC admitting GT to get them to move on. Also, Southern Miss applied in either the 60’s or 70’s. I though that was random.

The ACC admitted Florida St in 1991 so I think they have to be in this scenario.
02-21-2018 07:07 PM
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bluesox Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
I always thought it was pretty dumb they didn’t go to 12 or at least 10 with FSU and Miami. South Carolina would have probably taken the first offer from the sec or acc. Back than, the acc is thought they were running a private golf club membership instead of an athletic conference.
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2018 07:28 PM by bluesox.)
02-21-2018 07:24 PM
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Chappy Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
I could see them going with FSU, VT, WVU and Pittsburgh. Which would have made the Big East football conference look very different or never happen.
02-21-2018 07:32 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
there was an idea floated that BC, Cuse and Pitt join the ACC as FB only members. ACC wasn't interested. Interesting that the ACC didn't counter propose full membership for the 3. Different time than a decade or so later. If memory serves, Miami was viewed as a pariah. No one really wanted them except the BE (even though Miami was successful) Virginia Tech came of age, so to speak, one it joined the BE.
Am I recalling this correctly?
02-21-2018 08:52 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
As I recall, the ACC simply going to nine teams was difficult enough ---- the basketball powers-that-be didn't like that because of its effect on both (1) the tournament and (2) potentially the round-robin (the ACC still had a round-robin with 9 teams but a round-robin was an absolutely "must have" for basketball).

It's not a bad "what if", but it also seems like something that wasn't overly realistic. I don't think 12 was really a viable option in 1991.
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2018 10:43 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
02-21-2018 10:42 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 06:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  I doubt SC would go for the ACC, considering the circumstances of their departure and the fact that the SEC desired them. VT would have been a good choice. If at that time they're willing to add Miami, with such a poor basketball pedigree until then, why not VT? WV might be problematic due to academics. Wasn't Syracuse considered?

Virginia Tech wasn't Virginia Tech in 1991. Much of the WAC and the jilted SWC teams were bigger names.

Virginia Tech was the equivalent of ECU from 2010 back then. They were emerging and on the fringe but it's unlikely the ACC would have added them.
02-22-2018 04:08 AM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 07:24 PM)bluesox Wrote:  I always thought it was pretty dumb they didn’t go to 12 or at least 10 with FSU and Miami. South Carolina would have probably taken the first offer from the sec or acc. Back than, the acc is thought they were running a private golf club membership instead of an athletic conference.

Conferences weren't expanding like crazy back then. At the start of 1991, only one major or fringe conference had more than 10 members (though that was the year the Big Ten added one to go to 11). The 12 team conference hadn't even arrived yet, at least to D-I.

Conferences were actually composed with sound geography and even academic compatibility in mind. They even thought it was a good idea to try and have a round robin format or close enough.
02-22-2018 04:28 AM
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XLance Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 06:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  I doubt SC would go for the ACC, considering the circumstances of their departure and the fact that the SEC desired them. VT would have been a good choice. If at that time they're willing to add Miami, with such a poor basketball pedigree until then, why not VT? WV might be problematic due to academics. Wasn't Syracuse considered?

South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Syracuse was contacted before the call was made to Florida State.

At the annual ACC meetings on May 22 in Myrtle Beach, S.C., Florida State was mentioned for the first time. The discussions led Corrigan to schedule another meeting on July 25 at Sedgefield Country Club in Greensboro, N.C., in the exact room where the conference was formed in 1953.

Frustrated by the league's lack of focus on the expansion issue, Corrigan opted for a different approach at the Sedgefield meeting.

"I said, 'Let's make believe that we've agreed to expand. Each one of you has to write down a name of school,' " Corrigan recalled.

The secret ballot of member schools turned up four votes each for Syracuse and Florida State.

By the close of the four-hour meeting, Corrigan had permission from the ACC athletic directors to approach both schools to gauge interest. His first call was to Syracuse A.D. Jake Crouthamel. Crouthamel expressed interest, but because the Orangemen were charter members of the Big East, said the ACC would have to build a strong case. Corrigan, however, was not interested in wining and dining and told Crouthamel: "Just forget I called."

His call to Goin, however, yielded a different response.

"Bob said, 'Oh my goodness, I was hoping there was some interest [from] the ACC,'" Corrigan said.

http://nolefan.org/summary/fsu_acc.html


Miami BTW rejected the SEC too!
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-09-26/s...1_big-east

Miami Decides Against Joining the SEC : College football: School says it will still consider membership in Big East or ACC.
September 26, 1990|STEVEN WINE | ASSOCIATED PRESS
CORAL GABLES, Fla. — The University of Miami will continue to study possible affiliation with the Big East and Atlantic Coast conferences, and has eliminated the Southeastern Conference and Metro Conference from consideration, school president Edward Foote said today.
02-22-2018 05:22 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?
02-22-2018 09:25 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 04:28 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(02-21-2018 07:24 PM)bluesox Wrote:  I always thought it was pretty dumb they didn’t go to 12 or at least 10 with FSU and Miami. South Carolina would have probably taken the first offer from the sec or acc. Back than, the acc is thought they were running a private golf club membership instead of an athletic conference.

Conferences weren't expanding like crazy back then. At the start of 1991, only one major or fringe conference had more than 10 members (though that was the year the Big Ten added one to go to 11). The 12 team conference hadn't even arrived yet, at least to D-I.

Conferences were actually composed with sound geography and even academic compatibility in mind. They even thought it was a good idea to try and have a round robin format or close enough.

My "what if" for the ACC goes back a bit further. When South Carolina left the league with 7 members, the ACC was a basketball conference above all. That was their biggest source of revenue without question. Media money for football was still relatively modest for everybody. The ACC still wanted to maintain the double round robin, and were even fixated on having the "perfect 8" for their tournament, which was still unique.

Adding Georgia Tech made perfect sense. They didn't dilute the ACCT ticket allocation too much, and they weren't viewed as a competitive threat in hoops to Tobacco Road. But what if they had been a little more farsighted? Not 21st Century farsighted, but late 20th?

The Big Ten (they weren't the B1G then), had ten members, as did the SEC. What if the ACC had approached Penn State and Pitt, which were both clearly academically compatible to go to ten also? Those two would enhance the league's football stature without threatening the basketball supremacy of Tobacco Road. They would give Maryland some compatriots north of Tobacco Road with whom they already had some relationship. NC State had enjoyed an exciting and successful series with Penn State in the 70's.

Maybe if they said yes to make a ten team ACC, it's not a sure thing that Big East football ever becomes a thing. And then, in 1991, both Florida State and Syracuse now make even more sense. And Boston College probably never becomes part of the conversation.

If the Big Ten had never added Penn State, would they have added Nebraska and perhaps Missouri later to make 12, or would they have stayed at 10 longer? The entire landscape of college football might have been radically different.
02-22-2018 09:30 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-21-2018 07:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-21-2018 06:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  I doubt SC would go for the ACC, considering the circumstances of their departure and the fact that the SEC desired them. VT would have been a good choice. If at that time they're willing to add Miami, with such a poor basketball pedigree until then, why not VT?

I knew I could count on you to comment.

So if Bad blood keeps South Carolina out of the ACC would you say that FSU, Miami, VT, and WVU are the best 4 to go with, athletics not being a factor?

Or do they still try to pluck some northeastern members? Syracuse and BC were the original northeastern targets in 2004. Would they have been lured away from Big East basketball by an ACC offer?

I assume you mean academics not being a factor. In that case, yes, WVU over SU. But since the ACC had been (and still is) a very basketball-focused conference, adding SU would have helped offset the other adds, which were weaker in the sport.

Miami and VT would have been the hardest sells. However, if the ACC could have lured all 4, perhaps we would have seen an early zipper alignment.

Atlantic: Clemson, Florida State, Maryland, NC State, Syracuse, Wake Forest
Coastal: Georgia Tech, Miami, Virginia, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, Duke

Schools are ordered by permanent crossover pairs. It's the same as in 2005 in our timeline, except with SU instead of BC.

As has been noted, this would likely have put the kibosh on the Big East adding football. They'd still have BC and Pitt, but the only other suitable football adds would have been Rutgers, Temple, and WVU. So I'm guessing those schools would have remained football independents until the next round of conference expansion.

I suppose there's a chance that a new eastern football-only conference could have formed. It would have the aforementioned 5 schools plus maybe Cincinnati, Louisville, and East Carolina. Not power conference material though.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2018 09:42 AM by Nerdlinger.)
02-22-2018 09:32 AM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
VA Tech got in the first go round through political pressure from the Governor who saw an opportunity and wisely took it.

That political pressure wasn't there in the 90's and anti expansion was driven in part by the desire to protect a school's share of ACC tournament tickets.

There is the old joke that Clemson had a lot of UNC fans join there booster club because that was the easiest way to get ACC tournament tickets. If you are outside of NC, it is hard to comprehend how big the ACC tournament used to be and how protective UNC and Duke in particular were of their ticket shares.

However, I will play the game under the assumption that the ACC had foresight, wanted to keep pace with the SEC and get to 12, as well as protect the Eastern Seaboard from the Big 10

In the early 90's the ACC was the highest paid conference from a TV revenue standpoint. They were the alpha dog.

Operating from that premise, here is what I see.

The ACC adds FSU, Miami, Penn St, and Syracuse.

FSU got in as normal and Miami likely would have if the ACC was not so expansion hesitant in real life. If the ACC was pro expansion Miami would have gotten in with FSU.

I think if the ACC had been proactive they would have been able to snag Penn St. Maryland was already in the ACC and the ACC was, and still is, a better geographical fit. The academics of the ACC are equal to that of the Big 10 and in the early 90's the ACC was the financial powerhouse. Throw in Syracuse as a natural, old time rival and the proposed ACC 12 is a much much better all around fit for Penn St than being #11in the Big 10, particularly with Paterno wielding so much control and influence. Joining the ACC would be a viable and better alternative to joining the Big 10 for Penn St in the 90's.

The final spot comes down to Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Va Tech, WVU, Temple, and Rutgers. I think you can eliminate Temple and Rutgers right off the bat. WVU and VA Tech had been trying to get in for awhile and couldn't, so I don't see that changing. While Pitt is an attractive candidate they are public. I think maintaining a healthy amount of private schools is important to Duke and Wake so not only do they get Miami, they get another private school to balance out the FSU and Penn St additions. That leaves BC and Syracuse. Of those two Syracuse is the clear winner. Cuse was a powerhouse in basketball and that would be an important factor for the basketball focused ACC considering the other editions were made to strengthen football.

Syracuse-------Wake
UMD------------UVA
Clemson--------NC State
Penn State-----UNC
Miami-----------Duke
FSU-------------Ga Tech
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2018 09:51 AM by solohawks.)
02-22-2018 09:49 AM
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esayem Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.
02-22-2018 10:26 AM
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esayem Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 10:26 AM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 09:25 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-22-2018 05:22 AM)XLance Wrote:  South Carolina has attempted to rejoin the ACC twice since the left.

Interesting. When were these attempts?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...63b86e3a72

South Carolina had the votes before Georgia Tech was admitted.

So I'm guessing the two attempts were in 1976 and 1979. SC was going through an identity crisis.
02-22-2018 10:30 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
What I would be interested in knowing is which four ACC teams voted for Syracuse in Corrigan's straw vote.
02-22-2018 10:53 AM
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esayem Offline
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RE: What ifs of realignment: the ACC goes to 12 in 1991
(02-22-2018 10:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  What I would be interested in knowing is which four ACC teams voted for Syracuse in Corrigan's straw vote.

Well, it was just the AD's from what I understand, and not the presidents. Just a guess:

Syracuse - UNC, Duke, Wake, UVA

FSU - Clemson, UMD, GT, NCSU

Although, Maryland had long ties with Syracuse and GT could have gone either way. I think we'd have to look at who the AD's were at the time and which ones were more football-minded or football-influenced. I'm pretty sure UNC, Duke, and Wake were against expansion with FSU, and the final vote was 6-2. I think I remember Wake finally switching to a "yes", but I could be wrong.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2018 12:03 PM by esayem.)
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