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Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
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ColKurtz Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
No other sports league has a membership where anyone is admitted, no matter their ability to be competitive at the highest level. Liberty can just choose to be in FBS without the rest of the "league" voting on it. All they have to do is meet certain qualifications. Imagine if a town in Maine or Alaska could throw together a football team and declare themselves an NFL franchise and demand access to the Super Bowl.

There's never really been a true playoff in FBS. It was teams playing for the most prestigious bowls. Then came attempts to match the 2 top teams so that split national champions weren't decided by dueling polls. The current playoff is to match the 4 best teams.

And half the FBS isn't excluded. Just because UCF was snubbed this year doesn't mean an FBS can never get in. Houston could well have gotten a bid a couple years ago if they hadn't collapsed. If UCF had beaten Auburn in the regular season they would have had a case. But even an undefeated Wisconsin was in danger of being left out this past season for the same reason UCF got snubbed - weak schedule.
02-25-2018 08:42 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-25-2018 08:42 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  No other sports league has a membership where anyone is admitted, no matter their ability to be competitive at the highest level. Liberty can just choose to be in FBS without the rest of the "league" voting on it. All they have to do is meet certain qualifications. Imagine if a town in Maine or Alaska could throw together a football team and declare themselves an NFL franchise and demand access to the Super Bowl.

There's never really been a true playoff in FBS. It was teams playing for the most prestigious bowls. Then came attempts to match the 2 top teams so that split national champions weren't decided by dueling polls. The current playoff is to match the 4 best teams.

And half the FBS isn't excluded. Just because UCF was snubbed this year doesn't mean an FBS can never get in. Houston could well have gotten a bid a couple years ago if they hadn't collapsed. If UCF had beaten Auburn in the regular season they would have had a case. But even an undefeated Wisconsin was in danger of being left out this past season for the same reason UCF got snubbed - weak schedule.

Even if UCF had made it in, its still not a rational system.

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02-25-2018 09:18 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-25-2018 08:42 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  No other sports league has a membership where anyone is admitted, no matter their ability to be competitive at the highest level. Liberty can just choose to be in FBS without the rest of the "league" voting on it. All they have to do is meet certain qualifications. Imagine if a town in Maine or Alaska could throw together a football team and declare themselves an NFL franchise and demand access to the Super Bowl.

I believe Liberty's reclassification was put to vote by management council and they had the votes because of the business case to move up to FBS.
02-25-2018 09:34 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-25-2018 06:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 11:16 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 11:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  You don't get it, because it's not a farce, or at least if it is, you have failed to explain why. For my part, i haven't merely said "how" things are, i've explained WHY they are that way, a big difference. So here's your chance:

Explain why e.g. the Sun Belt champ not having a formal, systemic chance to compete with the SEC champ for a national football championship makes Alabama's national championship any more of a farce than the MEAC champ not having that same opportunity does.

This space reserved ............................

I have explained it many times, including in this thread. I even gave an analogy. I can point to hundreds of other sports leagues with the same system. Go listen to Mike Leach's explanation on YouTube. There are many other people, even on this board, who have explained it...for years.

You have a playoff, in this subdivision, that excludes half of its member conferences from access to its playoffs and championships before a game is played. I'm not aware of any other sports league that uses that system...because it is, on its face, absurd.

The MEAC champ is not a team in this subdivision. MEAC is not an FBS conference.

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Your explanation is no explanation at all, as it assumes the validity of the NCAA Subdivision designation as defining who a school's peers are for the purpose of determining a champion.

But I've explained to you at least twice now why that designation is meaningless. Your job, therefore, isn't just to declare it meaningful because that designation merely exists, but to explain why a national championship that doesn't comport with the outlines of that NCAA designation is a farce.

Explain why the fact that the MEAC isn't in the same NCAA subdivision as the SEC while the Sun Belt is means that the SEC is obligated to systematically compete with the Sun Belt champ and not the MEAC champ for a national title it earns to be regarded as not a Farce.

This space reserved ......

Because your premise is flawed. The MEAC is NOT in the same SUBDIVISION as the SEC (The Football Championship Subdivision is not the same as the Football Bowl Subdivsion). In EVERY sport where the two conferences are in the same NCAA subdivision, they each compete for the same trophy and each conference champ has an autobid to said championship. Heck, FCS championship didnt exist until the late 1970"s. The only reason the FBS subdivision operates as it does is tradition. The quasi private/public bowl partnership was unique to college football and the accepted method of naming a champion sort developed unofficially over time. Thats why you have disputed championships. We now have a mechanism to create a unified champion, though its unified in name only--and in practice is rigged and has lost credibility with about half the member schools. There isnt a single reasonable college sports reporter that really believes it would ever allow a G5 to play in the CFP.

Finally, if they dont compete for the same championship--why are so many Bama fans whining and crying on twitter because UCF has declared 2017 to be a Knights National Championship season? Bama' fans arent whining about the FCS National Champ.

First, I said that the MEAC isn't in the same subdivision as the SEC so why repeat it back to me?

Second, Alabama fans aren't 'whining', they are laughing at UCF. They would laugh just the same if the FCS champion was claiming they were champs alongside or over Alabama as well.

Third, you keep bitterly talking about the "hand-picked P5 committee members" who make the selection, but fail to mention that it's not just the committee, but every other significant selecting mechanism, human or computer, would have made the same selections. AP poll? Coaches poll? Neither would have had UCF in the playoffs. Heck, neither would have UCF in a 4-team playoff *after* they beat Auburn. Sagarin? Massey Composite? Composite of former BCS computers? All had UCF well outside the top four. So it's silly to harp about the alleged 'P5 bias' of the committee when its selections just about perfectly comport with all other entities that don't have a P5 bias. And heck, the mechanism is such that it always keeps at least one P5 champ out too. This year, two P5 champs were kept up, you don't hear them whining.

There's still zero explanation as to why mere membership in the same NCAA subdivision means that the SEC is obligated to compete with the Sun Belt for a national championship. The reason is, there is no such reason.

The CFP bills itself exactly as what it is: The national championship of those conferences that have agreed to choose their champion via the CFP. That's it, no different things an the Super Bowl being the official championship game of the NFL.

Beyond that, though, even if you think the CFP is bogus because its selection mechanism keeps the G5 out, there's still not been a good reason given as to why this makes the CFP champ "bogus".

All you're saying is that the CFP champ is really the champ of just the P5 conferences, and not of the G5 conferences. But that doesn't make the CFP/P5 champ any more or less bogus because they also didn't allow FCS or DII teams to compete for their title either.

No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2018 09:59 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-25-2018 09:49 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
FBS upon its creation never intended to be subdivided itself between P5/G5 levels.

That really started with the creation of the BCS. Before then you had the MAC and Big West which were tweener FCS leagues at the FBS level but that was their problem and their champions played each other in a bowl game.

Then came the influx of the college sports channels all of which parroted the distinction of those conferences with an autobid and those who do not. They made it into the defining aspect of the entire sport.

The royal screw job the G5 is receiving in today's CFP system is just that, a royal screw job. They are rightful members of the top level of football as any other. ESPN spent so much money trying to keep the B1G and SEC in the fold they ran out of it for the other conferences. The G5 isn't getting paid but it doesn't mean they don't belong.

TV money forced a consolidation into 5 power conferences. That is fine if some conferences earn more. When the other 5 conferences have no hope of competing for a national championship, despite ample evidence they could be competitive its a screw job.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2018 10:58 PM by Kittonhead.)
02-25-2018 10:56 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #106
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-25-2018 10:56 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  FBS upon its creation never intended to be subdivided itself between P5/G5 levels.

That really started with the creation of the BCS. Before then you had the MAC and Big West which were tweener FCS leagues at the FBS level but that was their problem and their champions played each other in a bowl game.

Then came the influx of the college sports channels all of which parroted the distinction of those conferences with an autobid and those who do not. They made it into the defining aspect of the entire sport.

The royal screw job the G5 is receiving in today's CFP system is just that, a royal screw job. They are rightful members of the top level of football as any other. ESPN spent so much money trying to keep the B1G and SEC in the fold they ran out of it for the other conferences. The G5 isn't getting paid but it doesn't mean they don't belong.

TV money forced a consolidation into 5 power conferences. That is fine if some conferences earn more. When the other 5 conferences have no hope of competing for a national championship, despite ample evidence they could be competitive its a screw job.

At its creation, the FBS didn't need to be further subdivided. But that was before most of the schools now in G5 conferences were in the division. The proliferation of programs which lack the resources to compete on a more or less equal footing with the original makeup of the FBS is what caused a de facto division in public perception into P5 and G5. The marketplace is doing what the NCAA can't do politically.
02-26-2018 09:12 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-25-2018 08:32 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 07:37 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 04:41 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 11:16 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  I have explained it many times, including in this thread. I even gave an analogy. I can point to hundreds of other sports leagues with the same system. Go listen to Mike Leach's explanation on YouTube. There are many other people, even on this board, who have explained it...for years.

You have a playoff, in this subdivision, that excludes half of its member conferences from access to its playoffs and championships before a game is played. I'm not aware of any other sports league that uses that system...because it is, on its face, absurd.

The MEAC champ is not a team in this subdivision. MEAC is not an FBS conference.

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Your explanation is no explanation at all, as it assumes the validity of the NCAA Subdivision designation as defining who a school's peers are for the purpose of determining a champion.

But I've explained to you at least twice now why that designation is meaningless. Your job, therefore, isn't just to declare it meaningful because that designation merely exists, but to explain why a national championship that doesn't comport with the outlines of that NCAA designation is a farce.

Explain why the fact that the MEAC isn't in the same NCAA subdivision as the SEC while the Sun Belt is means that the SEC is obligated to systematically compete with the Sun Belt champ and not the MEAC champ for a national title it earns to be regarded as not a Farce.

This space reserved ......

We are in the same subdivision. We actually officially on paper for certain sure are.

The decision by some to pretend that sorta mystically subjectively based on the feelz of LSU that we aren't really....is less official.

And my explanation that it is absurd for a sports league to exclude half of its member teams from post-season championship determination before a game is even played...still applies.

It doesn't apply, because as I've explained, the P5 conferences don't regard the G5 conferences as being their peers, as being in the same league as them. 07-coffee3
A monopolist regarding his monopoly as 'alright' is not a logical debating point in a debate about the legitimacy of monopolies. You do realize this, right?

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Your comment presumes that the Sun Belt and SEC are in some sort of competitive relation to each other such that the SEC is obligated to give the Sun Belt a chance to compete with it on the same formal terms, but not, for example, to give the same opportunity to the MEAC conference.

I've explained why NCAA/FBS categorization isn't enough, but I didn't do it nearly as well as the VT fan did: He pointed out that unlike say the NFL or NBA, which has the power to choose whether a new franchise is admitted, and therefore can make that determination about their worthiness to be competitive with the existing franchises, there is no such mechanism in college football.

As ColKurtz noted, in NCAA/FBS, any school can decide on its own to be in that category without input from the existing members. If school Z averages 15,000 fans and offers the requisite number of scholarships, meeting the NCAA requirements for FBS, it can say to the SEC "hey fellas, here we are! NCAA/FBS! So now you have to change your system so we get to play for the same national title on the same access terms as you do, otherwise you are a bogus irrational monopoly!!!"

See how absurd that is?
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 09:29 AM by quo vadis.)
02-26-2018 09:22 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 11:16 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  I have explained it many times, including in this thread. I even gave an analogy. I can point to hundreds of other sports leagues with the same system. Go listen to Mike Leach's explanation on YouTube. There are many other people, even on this board, who have explained it...for years.

You have a playoff, in this subdivision, that excludes half of its member conferences from access to its playoffs and championships before a game is played. I'm not aware of any other sports league that uses that system...because it is, on its face, absurd.

The MEAC champ is not a team in this subdivision. MEAC is not an FBS conference.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Your explanation is no explanation at all, as it assumes the validity of the NCAA Subdivision designation as defining who a school's peers are for the purpose of determining a champion.

But I've explained to you at least twice now why that designation is meaningless. Your job, therefore, isn't just to declare it meaningful because that designation merely exists, but to explain why a national championship that doesn't comport with the outlines of that NCAA designation is a farce.

Explain why the fact that the MEAC isn't in the same NCAA subdivision as the SEC while the Sun Belt is means that the SEC is obligated to systematically compete with the Sun Belt champ and not the MEAC champ for a national title it earns to be regarded as not a Farce.

This space reserved ......

Because your premise is flawed. The MEAC is NOT in the same SUBDIVISION as the SEC (The Football Championship Subdivision is not the same as the Football Bowl Subdivsion). In EVERY sport where the two conferences are in the same NCAA subdivision, they each compete for the same trophy and each conference champ has an autobid to said championship. Heck, FCS championship didnt exist until the late 1970"s. The only reason the FBS subdivision operates as it does is tradition. The quasi private/public bowl partnership was unique to college football and the accepted method of naming a champion sort developed unofficially over time. Thats why you have disputed championships. We now have a mechanism to create a unified champion, though its unified in name only--and in practice is rigged and has lost credibility with about half the member schools. There isnt a single reasonable college sports reporter that really believes it would ever allow a G5 to play in the CFP.

Finally, if they dont compete for the same championship--why are so many Bama fans whining and crying on twitter because UCF has declared 2017 to be a Knights National Championship season? Bama' fans arent whining about the FCS National Champ.

First, I said that the MEAC isn't in the same subdivision as the SEC so why repeat it back to me?

Second, Alabama fans aren't 'whining', they are laughing at UCF. They would laugh just the same if the FCS champion was claiming they were champs alongside or over Alabama as well.

Third, you keep bitterly talking about the "hand-picked P5 committee members" who make the selection, but fail to mention that it's not just the committee, but every other significant selecting mechanism, human or computer, would have made the same selections. AP poll? Coaches poll? Neither would have had UCF in the playoffs. Heck, neither would have UCF in a 4-team playoff *after* they beat Auburn. Sagarin? Massey Composite? Composite of former BCS computers? All had UCF well outside the top four. So it's silly to harp about the alleged 'P5 bias' of the committee when its selections just about perfectly comport with all other entities that don't have a P5 bias. And heck, the mechanism is such that it always keeps at least one P5 champ out too. This year, two P5 champs were kept up, you don't hear them whining.

There's still zero explanation as to why mere membership in the same NCAA subdivision means that the SEC is obligated to compete with the Sun Belt for a national championship. The reason is, there is no such reason.

The CFP bills itself exactly as what it is: The national championship of those conferences that have agreed to choose their champion via the CFP. That's it, no different things an the Super Bowl being the official championship game of the NFL.

Beyond that, though, even if you think the CFP is bogus because its selection mechanism keeps the G5 out, there's still not been a good reason given as to why this makes the CFP champ "bogus".

All you're saying is that the CFP champ is really the champ of just the P5 conferences, and not of the G5 conferences. But that doesn't make the CFP/P5 champ any more or less bogus because they also didn't allow FCS or DII teams to compete for their title either.

No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.
02-26-2018 09:28 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Your explanation is no explanation at all, as it assumes the validity of the NCAA Subdivision designation as defining who a school's peers are for the purpose of determining a champion.

But I've explained to you at least twice now why that designation is meaningless. Your job, therefore, isn't just to declare it meaningful because that designation merely exists, but to explain why a national championship that doesn't comport with the outlines of that NCAA designation is a farce.

Explain why the fact that the MEAC isn't in the same NCAA subdivision as the SEC while the Sun Belt is means that the SEC is obligated to systematically compete with the Sun Belt champ and not the MEAC champ for a national title it earns to be regarded as not a Farce.

This space reserved ......

Because your premise is flawed. The MEAC is NOT in the same SUBDIVISION as the SEC (The Football Championship Subdivision is not the same as the Football Bowl Subdivsion). In EVERY sport where the two conferences are in the same NCAA subdivision, they each compete for the same trophy and each conference champ has an autobid to said championship. Heck, FCS championship didnt exist until the late 1970"s. The only reason the FBS subdivision operates as it does is tradition. The quasi private/public bowl partnership was unique to college football and the accepted method of naming a champion sort developed unofficially over time. Thats why you have disputed championships. We now have a mechanism to create a unified champion, though its unified in name only--and in practice is rigged and has lost credibility with about half the member schools. There isnt a single reasonable college sports reporter that really believes it would ever allow a G5 to play in the CFP.

Finally, if they dont compete for the same championship--why are so many Bama fans whining and crying on twitter because UCF has declared 2017 to be a Knights National Championship season? Bama' fans arent whining about the FCS National Champ.

First, I said that the MEAC isn't in the same subdivision as the SEC so why repeat it back to me?

Second, Alabama fans aren't 'whining', they are laughing at UCF. They would laugh just the same if the FCS champion was claiming they were champs alongside or over Alabama as well.

Third, you keep bitterly talking about the "hand-picked P5 committee members" who make the selection, but fail to mention that it's not just the committee, but every other significant selecting mechanism, human or computer, would have made the same selections. AP poll? Coaches poll? Neither would have had UCF in the playoffs. Heck, neither would have UCF in a 4-team playoff *after* they beat Auburn. Sagarin? Massey Composite? Composite of former BCS computers? All had UCF well outside the top four. So it's silly to harp about the alleged 'P5 bias' of the committee when its selections just about perfectly comport with all other entities that don't have a P5 bias. And heck, the mechanism is such that it always keeps at least one P5 champ out too. This year, two P5 champs were kept up, you don't hear them whining.

There's still zero explanation as to why mere membership in the same NCAA subdivision means that the SEC is obligated to compete with the Sun Belt for a national championship. The reason is, there is no such reason.

The CFP bills itself exactly as what it is: The national championship of those conferences that have agreed to choose their champion via the CFP. That's it, no different things an the Super Bowl being the official championship game of the NFL.

Beyond that, though, even if you think the CFP is bogus because its selection mechanism keeps the G5 out, there's still not been a good reason given as to why this makes the CFP champ "bogus".

All you're saying is that the CFP champ is really the champ of just the P5 conferences, and not of the G5 conferences. But that doesn't make the CFP/P5 champ any more or less bogus because they also didn't allow FCS or DII teams to compete for their title either.

No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.
Fans of the sport have a right to complain about it. G5 admins play along to get some bribe money for their program plus many don't want to rock the boat because they hope to someday be an AD or President of a cartel school.

But none of that makes it a legitimate and rational setup for a sports league post-season.

I assume you would argue that the mafia's protection racket is a legit business model because..hey...those guys AGREED to pay the protection money!

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(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 10:11 AM by ark30inf.)
02-26-2018 10:06 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:58 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Your explanation is no explanation at all, as it assumes the validity of the NCAA Subdivision designation as defining who a school's peers are for the purpose of determining a champion.

But I've explained to you at least twice now why that designation is meaningless. Your job, therefore, isn't just to declare it meaningful because that designation merely exists, but to explain why a national championship that doesn't comport with the outlines of that NCAA designation is a farce.

Explain why the fact that the MEAC isn't in the same NCAA subdivision as the SEC while the Sun Belt is means that the SEC is obligated to systematically compete with the Sun Belt champ and not the MEAC champ for a national title it earns to be regarded as not a Farce.

This space reserved ......

Because your premise is flawed. The MEAC is NOT in the same SUBDIVISION as the SEC (The Football Championship Subdivision is not the same as the Football Bowl Subdivsion). In EVERY sport where the two conferences are in the same NCAA subdivision, they each compete for the same trophy and each conference champ has an autobid to said championship. Heck, FCS championship didnt exist until the late 1970"s. The only reason the FBS subdivision operates as it does is tradition. The quasi private/public bowl partnership was unique to college football and the accepted method of naming a champion sort developed unofficially over time. Thats why you have disputed championships. We now have a mechanism to create a unified champion, though its unified in name only--and in practice is rigged and has lost credibility with about half the member schools. There isnt a single reasonable college sports reporter that really believes it would ever allow a G5 to play in the CFP.

Finally, if they dont compete for the same championship--why are so many Bama fans whining and crying on twitter because UCF has declared 2017 to be a Knights National Championship season? Bama' fans arent whining about the FCS National Champ.

First, I said that the MEAC isn't in the same subdivision as the SEC so why repeat it back to me?

Second, Alabama fans aren't 'whining', they are laughing at UCF. They would laugh just the same if the FCS champion was claiming they were champs alongside or over Alabama as well.

Third, you keep bitterly talking about the "hand-picked P5 committee members" who make the selection, but fail to mention that it's not just the committee, but every other significant selecting mechanism, human or computer, would have made the same selections. AP poll? Coaches poll? Neither would have had UCF in the playoffs. Heck, neither would have UCF in a 4-team playoff *after* they beat Auburn. Sagarin? Massey Composite? Composite of former BCS computers? All had UCF well outside the top four. So it's silly to harp about the alleged 'P5 bias' of the committee when its selections just about perfectly comport with all other entities that don't have a P5 bias. And heck, the mechanism is such that it always keeps at least one P5 champ out too. This year, two P5 champs were kept up, you don't hear them whining.

There's still zero explanation as to why mere membership in the same NCAA subdivision means that the SEC is obligated to compete with the Sun Belt for a national championship. The reason is, there is no such reason.

The CFP bills itself exactly as what it is: The national championship of those conferences that have agreed to choose their champion via the CFP. That's it, no different things an the Super Bowl being the official championship game of the NFL.

Beyond that, though, even if you think the CFP is bogus because its selection mechanism keeps the G5 out, there's still not been a good reason given as to why this makes the CFP champ "bogus".

All you're saying is that the CFP champ is really the champ of just the P5 conferences, and not of the G5 conferences. But that doesn't make the CFP/P5 champ any more or less bogus because they also didn't allow FCS or DII teams to compete for their title either.

No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.

Lol. You can whine and stamp your feet and roll on the ground in tears. At the end of the day, the Sunbelt and SEC are both FBS. You don’t have to agree for it to be a fact. As for the CFP system, it’s a rigged system. Pretty obvious as well. Nobody, even yourself, believes a G5 will ever be selected, even if Bama and ULL switched players for a season.
02-26-2018 10:59 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 10:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Because your premise is flawed. The MEAC is NOT in the same SUBDIVISION as the SEC (The Football Championship Subdivision is not the same as the Football Bowl Subdivsion). In EVERY sport where the two conferences are in the same NCAA subdivision, they each compete for the same trophy and each conference champ has an autobid to said championship. Heck, FCS championship didnt exist until the late 1970"s. The only reason the FBS subdivision operates as it does is tradition. The quasi private/public bowl partnership was unique to college football and the accepted method of naming a champion sort developed unofficially over time. Thats why you have disputed championships. We now have a mechanism to create a unified champion, though its unified in name only--and in practice is rigged and has lost credibility with about half the member schools. There isnt a single reasonable college sports reporter that really believes it would ever allow a G5 to play in the CFP.

Finally, if they dont compete for the same championship--why are so many Bama fans whining and crying on twitter because UCF has declared 2017 to be a Knights National Championship season? Bama' fans arent whining about the FCS National Champ.

First, I said that the MEAC isn't in the same subdivision as the SEC so why repeat it back to me?

Second, Alabama fans aren't 'whining', they are laughing at UCF. They would laugh just the same if the FCS champion was claiming they were champs alongside or over Alabama as well.

Third, you keep bitterly talking about the "hand-picked P5 committee members" who make the selection, but fail to mention that it's not just the committee, but every other significant selecting mechanism, human or computer, would have made the same selections. AP poll? Coaches poll? Neither would have had UCF in the playoffs. Heck, neither would have UCF in a 4-team playoff *after* they beat Auburn. Sagarin? Massey Composite? Composite of former BCS computers? All had UCF well outside the top four. So it's silly to harp about the alleged 'P5 bias' of the committee when its selections just about perfectly comport with all other entities that don't have a P5 bias. And heck, the mechanism is such that it always keeps at least one P5 champ out too. This year, two P5 champs were kept up, you don't hear them whining.

There's still zero explanation as to why mere membership in the same NCAA subdivision means that the SEC is obligated to compete with the Sun Belt for a national championship. The reason is, there is no such reason.

The CFP bills itself exactly as what it is: The national championship of those conferences that have agreed to choose their champion via the CFP. That's it, no different things an the Super Bowl being the official championship game of the NFL.

Beyond that, though, even if you think the CFP is bogus because its selection mechanism keeps the G5 out, there's still not been a good reason given as to why this makes the CFP champ "bogus".

All you're saying is that the CFP champ is really the champ of just the P5 conferences, and not of the G5 conferences. But that doesn't make the CFP/P5 champ any more or less bogus because they also didn't allow FCS or DII teams to compete for their title either.

No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.

Lol. You can whine and stamp your feet and roll on the ground in tears. At the end of the day, the Sunbelt and SEC are both FBS. You don’t have to agree for it to be a fact.

LOL? You're the one who wants change, so you're the one whining and stamping your feet about the system, not me. So far, your whining and crying, nor the fact that the SEC and Sun Belt are both FBS, hasn't produced what you want, the SEC recognizing the Sun Belt in terms of including them in a "rational" system that includes the Sun Belt champ in a playoff.

As I've explained, NCAA classification is by no means a 'rational' basis for requiring that, because classification is self-selected. Any school that averages 15,000 fans and meets the schollie requirements can announce themselves as FBS, so there's no more rational basis for requiring the SEC to compete with the Sun Belt because of FBS than requiring them to compete with the MEAC because both are NCAA institutions.

But good luck with that. 07-coffee3
02-26-2018 11:46 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 10:06 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  But none of that makes it a legitimate and rational setup for a sports league post-season.

Sigh ... I've explained to you that the SEC doesn't, and has no rational reason to, regard the Sun Belt as a valid member of a "sports league" that they need to compete against systematically for a football title. NCAA/FBS classification isn't a rational basis for regarding them as such.

But it seems to not sink in ... 07-coffee3
02-26-2018 11:48 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 11:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 10:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 06:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  First, I said that the MEAC isn't in the same subdivision as the SEC so why repeat it back to me?

Second, Alabama fans aren't 'whining', they are laughing at UCF. They would laugh just the same if the FCS champion was claiming they were champs alongside or over Alabama as well.

Third, you keep bitterly talking about the "hand-picked P5 committee members" who make the selection, but fail to mention that it's not just the committee, but every other significant selecting mechanism, human or computer, would have made the same selections. AP poll? Coaches poll? Neither would have had UCF in the playoffs. Heck, neither would have UCF in a 4-team playoff *after* they beat Auburn. Sagarin? Massey Composite? Composite of former BCS computers? All had UCF well outside the top four. So it's silly to harp about the alleged 'P5 bias' of the committee when its selections just about perfectly comport with all other entities that don't have a P5 bias. And heck, the mechanism is such that it always keeps at least one P5 champ out too. This year, two P5 champs were kept up, you don't hear them whining.

There's still zero explanation as to why mere membership in the same NCAA subdivision means that the SEC is obligated to compete with the Sun Belt for a national championship. The reason is, there is no such reason.

The CFP bills itself exactly as what it is: The national championship of those conferences that have agreed to choose their champion via the CFP. That's it, no different things an the Super Bowl being the official championship game of the NFL.

Beyond that, though, even if you think the CFP is bogus because its selection mechanism keeps the G5 out, there's still not been a good reason given as to why this makes the CFP champ "bogus".

All you're saying is that the CFP champ is really the champ of just the P5 conferences, and not of the G5 conferences. But that doesn't make the CFP/P5 champ any more or less bogus because they also didn't allow FCS or DII teams to compete for their title either.

No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.

Lol. You can whine and stamp your feet and roll on the ground in tears. At the end of the day, the Sunbelt and SEC are both FBS. You don’t have to agree for it to be a fact.

LOL? You're the one who wants change, so you're the one whining and stamping your feet about the system, not me. So far, your whining and crying, nor the fact that the SEC and Sun Belt are both FBS, hasn't produced what you want, the SEC recognizing the Sun Belt in terms of including them in a "rational" system that includes the Sun Belt champ in a playoff.

As I've explained, NCAA classification is by no means a 'rational' basis for requiring that, because classification is self-selected. Any school that averages 15,000 fans and meets the schollie requirements can announce themselves as FBS, so there's no more rational basis for requiring the SEC to compete with the Sun Belt because of FBS than requiring them to compete with the MEAC because both are NCAA institutions.

But good luck with that. 07-coffee3

lol...Again? Your argument is so silly and disjointed I cant even figure out what your talking about. NCAA Divisons are the rational basis that competition for the entire world of college athletics is built upon. Your talking giberish.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 07:25 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-26-2018 12:05 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 10:06 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  But none of that makes it a legitimate and rational setup for a sports league post-season.

Sigh ... I've explained to you that the SEC doesn't, and has no rational reason to, regard the Sun Belt as a valid member of a "sports league" that they need to compete against systematically for a football title. NCAA/FBS classification isn't a rational basis for regarding them as such.

But it seems to not sink in ... 07-coffee3
Again. Just because the monopolist thinks his company is too good to compete with others does not legitimize his monopoly or make it a good healthy business practice for the market as a whole.

We KNOW what the P5 think. It has no bearing on the discussion of how things SHOULD be. Repeating what they think endlessly is pointless to the discussion.

Well the AFC West champion is not going to be allowed into the playoffs because the NFC thinks they are a weak division, and sportswriters took a poll. That is absurd, and just because the NFC likes it...does not make it less absurd.

Repeating it over and over does not help the argument.

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02-26-2018 12:13 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #115
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 12:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 11:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 10:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.

Lol. You can whine and stamp your feet and roll on the ground in tears. At the end of the day, the Sunbelt and SEC are both FBS. You don’t have to agree for it to be a fact.

LOL? You're the one who wants change, so you're the one whining and stamping your feet about the system, not me. So far, your whining and crying, nor the fact that the SEC and Sun Belt are both FBS, hasn't produced what you want, the SEC recognizing the Sun Belt in terms of including them in a "rational" system that includes the Sun Belt champ in a playoff.

As I've explained, NCAA classification is by no means a 'rational' basis for requiring that, because classification is self-selected. Any school that averages 15,000 fans and meets the schollie requirements can announce themselves as FBS, so there's no more rational basis for requiring the SEC to compete with the Sun Belt because of FBS than requiring them to compete with the MEAC because both are NCAA institutions.

But good luck with that. 07-coffee3

lol...Again? Your argument is so silly and disjointed I cant even figure out what your talking about. NCAA Divisons are the rational basis that competition for the entire world of college athletics is built upon. Your talking giberish.

If the bolded statement were true, then we should include all of Division I in a post season tournament to determine a national champion. But the FBS was a subdivision created by the NCAA for the express purpose of having a group of schools that will NOT have an NCAA championship tournament.

These are schools who prefer to participate in bowl games instead. Every school in the FBS made that choice voluntarily and willingly. They did so because they felt that it was in their self interest to do so. They were not coerced in any way, despite the labored analogies that would paint the P5 in the role of the Mafia.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 12:33 PM by ken d.)
02-26-2018 12:32 PM
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C2__ Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 12:13 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 10:06 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  But none of that makes it a legitimate and rational setup for a sports league post-season.

Sigh ... I've explained to you that the SEC doesn't, and has no rational reason to, regard the Sun Belt as a valid member of a "sports league" that they need to compete against systematically for a football title. NCAA/FBS classification isn't a rational basis for regarding them as such.

But it seems to not sink in ... 07-coffee3
Again. Just because the monopolist thinks his company is too good to compete with others does not legitimize his monopoly or make it a good healthy business practice for the market as a whole.

We KNOW what the P5 think. It has no bearing on the discussion of how things SHOULD be. Repeating what they think endlessly is pointless to the discussion.

Well the AFC West champion is not going to be allowed into the playoffs because the NFC thinks they are a weak division, and sportswriters took a poll. That is absurd, and just because the NFC likes it...does not make it less absurd.

Repeating it over and over does not help the argument.

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What would the board be without a devil's advocate? It'd be boring if we didn't have it.

Because as you know, college football's setup is ridiculous. No merit, just garbage in/garbage out. Try to argue for a normal, rational playoff and it goes back "we know you guys can't compete just because you can't." Catch-22...circular logic.

But what else can be said that hasn't already been said?
02-26-2018 05:06 PM
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Post: #117
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
Every FBS school didn't do it willingly. This is the system forced upon us. Technically the contract was signed but what other choice do the non-contract conferences have? And I mean high level ones like the AAC and MWC plus BYU that have been at the D-I level for decades? The polls hand out the national titles but we had no access to the high profile bowls that often decided the national title for decades. The polls were also biased in favor of the same few teams and not really scientific.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 05:15 PM by C2__.)
02-26-2018 05:08 PM
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ark30inf Offline
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Post: #118
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 12:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 12:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 11:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 10:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.

Lol. You can whine and stamp your feet and roll on the ground in tears. At the end of the day, the Sunbelt and SEC are both FBS. You don’t have to agree for it to be a fact.

LOL? You're the one who wants change, so you're the one whining and stamping your feet about the system, not me. So far, your whining and crying, nor the fact that the SEC and Sun Belt are both FBS, hasn't produced what you want, the SEC recognizing the Sun Belt in terms of including them in a "rational" system that includes the Sun Belt champ in a playoff.

As I've explained, NCAA classification is by no means a 'rational' basis for requiring that, because classification is self-selected. Any school that averages 15,000 fans and meets the schollie requirements can announce themselves as FBS, so there's no more rational basis for requiring the SEC to compete with the Sun Belt because of FBS than requiring them to compete with the MEAC because both are NCAA institutions.

But good luck with that. 07-coffee3

lol...Again? Your argument is so silly and disjointed I cant even figure out what your talking about. NCAA Divisons are the rational basis that competition for the entire world of college athletics is built upon. Your talking giberish.

If the bolded statement were true, then we should include all of Division I in a post season tournament to determine a national champion. But the FBS was a subdivision created by the NCAA for the express purpose of having a group of schools that will NOT have an NCAA championship tournament.

These are schools who prefer to participate in bowl games instead. Every school in the FBS made that choice voluntarily and willingly. They did so because they felt that it was in their self interest to do so. They were not coerced in any way, despite the labored analogies that would paint the P5 in the role of the Mafia.

You understand that the subdivision actually does have a playoff now?

We are talking about whether the playoff should be a normal one...or continue to be a bizarre one.

An argument about being a "bowl subdivision" without a playoff doesn't really apply anymore.



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02-26-2018 05:14 PM
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JHS55 Offline
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Post: #119
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
Ken d and quo = fake news
Why argue so much with these fake ESPN conference fans, these type of people suffer from some kind of “ Iam smarter than you “ because ESPN gives my team more money than yours
Y’all know what I’ve been saying about our 5 conferences being locked out of a chance to play for a championship of espns desires, ok so we should pack our bags and leave the NCAA in all sports, this way we can make our own rules , of course we’re gonna need a network too, and a few billionaires with deep pockets and over time our tv ratings will be huge with a real playoff system, just think how much better our real playoffs will look on tv compared to the other guys fake playoffs with their committee , then at some point these ESPN league fools will come begging to play our playoff champ “ Houston” for a championship game of the two collegiate football leagues
Just say’n
02-26-2018 05:51 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #120
RE: Can the G5 BS its way to the top?
(02-26-2018 12:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 11:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 10:59 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  No. The SEC doesn’t have to compete with the Sunbelt for championships. What does that have to with anything when the SEC actually designed the system and chose to be in a championship with the Sunbelt. Your talking in circles. That said they are in FBS with the Sunbelt. That’s a fact. Any silly semantic argument you wish to make won’t change that. Only the schools can change that.

I'm not talking in circles, I've just asked for an answer to questions that those harping about the bogus-ness of the CFP keep refusing to answer.

I've explained why the Sun Belt "being in the FBS" with the SEC is irrelevant to this issue, and ColKurtz did a great job of explaining why it is irrelevant - better than I did but the point was made.

As for the CFP and who is in: That makes the point as well. The Sun Belt agreed to participate in the CFP system, as did the AAC, etc. so they have zero grounds to complain about it.

Lol. You can whine and stamp your feet and roll on the ground in tears. At the end of the day, the Sunbelt and SEC are both FBS. You don’t have to agree for it to be a fact.

LOL? You're the one who wants change, so you're the one whining and stamping your feet about the system, not me. So far, your whining and crying, nor the fact that the SEC and Sun Belt are both FBS, hasn't produced what you want, the SEC recognizing the Sun Belt in terms of including them in a "rational" system that includes the Sun Belt champ in a playoff.

As I've explained, NCAA classification is by no means a 'rational' basis for requiring that, because classification is self-selected. Any school that averages 15,000 fans and meets the schollie requirements can announce themselves as FBS, so there's no more rational basis for requiring the SEC to compete with the Sun Belt because of FBS than requiring them to compete with the MEAC because both are NCAA institutions.

But good luck with that. 07-coffee3

lol...Again? Your argument is so silly and disjointed I cant even figure out what your talking about. NCAA Divisons are the rational basis that competition for the entire world of college athletics is built upon. Your talking giberish.

Totally false, at least as it pertains to football, as NCAA divisions have never formed the basis for national title competition among the top college football programs.

That's the fact, so one has to argue that there is something wrong with that fact. Problem is, NCAA subdivisions are not any kind of "rational basis", because schools can self-select to join. That's not the way it is in any professional sports league.

There's nothing about offering 200 scholarships and drawing 15,000 fans a game for two straight years - the requirements for being FBS - that create a competitive or moral imperative for the PAC to compete against the Sun Belt in a formal, systematic way for a title.

Or if there is, you haven't been able to explain it.
02-26-2018 06:08 PM
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