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Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 02:59 PM)YNot Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 01:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 08:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  If ESPN is a "monopoly", how come during the fall i get plenty of college football games on other channels and networks?

It's not a monopoly but it is dominant enough that it doesn't have a significant competitor.

I'm sure Fox would take exception to being characterized as an insignificant competitor. And CBS and NBC seem to be as significant as they choose to be. With ABC available OTA there are a lot of sports available without subscribing to ESPN.

I haven't followed the ratings, but I'm sure NBC's coverage of the Olympics was pretty significant. CBS and TNT coverage of March Madness and the NBA is significant.

We're not talking about a single event or sports league but as a sports content channel itself.
02-26-2018 04:28 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't like ESPN either but pointing out facts is hardly a conspiracy to "kill" anything.

There's a serious level of butthurt here over really benign terms.

It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 04:39 PM by orangefan.)
02-26-2018 04:32 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't like ESPN either but pointing out facts is hardly a conspiracy to "kill" anything.

There's a serious level of butthurt here over really benign terms.

It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.


Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 06:17 PM by billybobby777.)
02-26-2018 06:12 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  There's a serious level of butthurt here over really benign terms.

It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.


Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.
02-26-2018 06:19 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.


Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Every school on that list brings market value except 4 or 5. And one of them is Boise St. Small market. Big tv rankings. Look at their tv numbers the past decade. Some could say not anymore....but I looked at some numbers from last year when They played a game against an awful New Mexico and drew a million viewers. Arkansas St could be another one that surprises...if they were given a chance. If a P5 team visits them I’m willing to bet the tv ratings would be scary....good. That’s why it’ll never happen.
02-26-2018 07:43 PM
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CarlSmithCenter Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 07:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.


Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Every school on that list brings market value except 4 or 5. And one of them is Boise St. Small market. Big tv rankings. Look at their tv numbers the past decade. Some could say not anymore....but I looked at some numbers from last year when They played a game against an awful New Mexico and drew a million viewers. Arkansas St could be another one that surprises...if they were given a chance. If a P5 team visits them I’m willing to bet the tv ratings would be scary....good. That’s why it’ll never happen.

I think you may have it backwards, only 4 or 5 of those schools have any real market value or national following. UConn and Cincy have basketball tradition but that doesn’t mean very much when football is driving the bus. Likewise, Buffalo may be the only G5 FBS team in New York (not counting Army as an indy), but it isn’t the undisputed SUNY flagship. Albany, Binghamton and Stony Brook all have a claim to that and if Stony Brook were to move up to FBS I think they’d give U at B a run for its money given more desirable location (closer to NYC) and comparable if not better academics. Lastly Arkansas, Nevada, New Mexico, Hawai’i, Idaho and Wyoming all rank between 31st and 50th in population. Hell, Idaho’s flagship school is dropping to FCS. I am not clear if Idaho State is a landgrant school but my recollection is that Boise State isn’t really that far removed from being a JUCO.
02-26-2018 10:37 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
Boise was a JUCO 50 years ago.
02-26-2018 10:58 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't like ESPN either but pointing out facts is hardly a conspiracy to "kill" anything.

There's a serious level of butthurt here over really benign terms.

It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.

UMass and UCONN are both state flagships and land grants, they're also both in the USNWR top 100, Carnegie R1 universities, and striving for AAU membership. Both have large alumni bases in top television markets (UCONN - NYC, UMass - Boston) in addition to alumni all around the country. Both have also been playing football for a long time. UMass is the 4th oldest program currently in FBS (1879), but neither has played at the highest level for very long. UConn has a number of years on UMass, but both have spent the vast majority of their time in the College Division, DII, and D1-AA. Consider that UMass has as many seasons at the highest level (20 according to sports-reference.com) as UAB which started football 112 years after us (according to wikipedia). 04-jawdrop
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 11:27 PM by McKinney.)
02-26-2018 11:19 PM
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DawgNBama Online
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Post: #69
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't like ESPN either but pointing out facts is hardly a conspiracy to "kill" anything.

There's a serious level of butthurt here over really benign terms.

It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.

+2 headed your way, Orangefan. One slight quibble: I’m not quite sure on Pittsburgh, because they could be this way or they could be different, but I do know for a fact that the Georgia Institute of Technology and the University of Louisville are neither flagships, nor are they land grant institutions. GIT or better known as GT has to have had one of the weirdest histories in all of college sports programs. GT, like UGA (the flagship & the sole FBS land grant institution for the state of Georgia), was a member of the SoCon back when it was first founded. When the SEC was formed, GT was made a founding member as well. But, GT left the SEC over a practice similar to grayshirting. Coach Dodd hated the practice because he thought it was being unfair to the players, and GT’s administration agreed with him. Eventually, GT joined the ACC, and is recognized as a space grant university today (FYI, ECU is a sea grant university). Louisville, like TCU, had repeated success against the P5 in big bowl games, and was rewarded with a spot in the ACC when Maryland left.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 02:22 AM by DawgNBama.)
02-27-2018 01:57 AM
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PirateTreasureNC Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
Until ratings and money get better from competitors, there isn't much one can do.

FS_ and CBSSN are probably the strongest candidates. I just don't know how much this FOXSN changeover will work with putting FOXSports back as the FS_ entity will go. NBCSN could be a factor but they seem to be going their own path for content.
02-27-2018 02:02 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 03:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't like ESPN either but pointing out facts is hardly a conspiracy to "kill" anything.

There's a serious level of butthurt here over really benign terms.

It's always a conspiracy theory!

That's easier to handle than facing reality--which is harsh.


That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.

As a football fan who cheers for all the North Carolina schools, including East Carolina, I wish that were realistic. The reality is that, while the Pirates often punch above their weight class when matched against OOC opponents like UNC, NC State and Virginia Tech, overall their record isn't very strong. Since the FBS split, when ECU upgraded the quality of its schedules significantly, they have won fewer than half of their games. That has been true also over the most recent 20 years.

ECU may occasionally win the AAC championship, but I wouldn't expect them to do so with any consistency unless something in their environment changes significantly.
02-27-2018 09:07 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-27-2018 01:57 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  +2 headed your way, Orangefan. One slight quibble: I’m not quite sure on Pittsburgh, because they could be this way or they could be different, but I do know for a fact that the Georgia Institute of Technology and the University of Louisville are neither flagships, nor are they land grant institutions. GIT or better known as GT has to have had one of the weirdest histories in all of college sports programs. GT, like UGA (the flagship & the sole FBS land grant institution for the state of Georgia), was a member of the SoCon back when it was first founded. When the SEC was formed, GT was made a founding member as well. But, GT left the SEC over a practice similar to grayshirting. Coach Dodd hated the practice because he thought it was being unfair to the players, and GT’s administration agreed with him. Eventually, GT joined the ACC, and is recognized as a space grant university today (FYI, ECU is a sea grant university). Louisville, like TCU, had repeated success against the P5 in big bowl games, and was rewarded with a spot in the ACC when Maryland left.

Pittsburgh is classified by the Pennsylvania as "state related." It receives public funding but it has some characteristics of a private school. However, Penn State and Temple are in this same category, so it appears to be a unique way in which Pennsylvania organizes and funds its highest tier state universities.

Georgia Tech clearly fits the same mold as UCLA, Florida State and Pittsburgh. It's in a state with a Flagship/Land Grant combination school, UGA. In GT's case, it's actually a better school than UGA, with a better USNWR ranking and an AAU membership.

With respect to Louisville, while they may not be as strong academically as some others, it is clearly the number two public university in its state.

The complete list of P5 schools that I would put in this category is: UCLA, Florida St., Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, Arizona St. and Louisville.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 10:52 AM by orangefan.)
02-27-2018 10:45 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Correct, Quo.

UCONN: Great at basketball, but bad at musical chairs. Probably the clearest example of a G5 school that should be P5. The only major knock against them is how recently they moved to FBS.
UMASS: Too new.
Buffalo: Too new. Not a true flagship, as NYS has split this designation among 4 schools.
New Mexico: State population is small, although slightly bigger than Nebraska and West Virginia.
Wyoming: State population is way too small.
Nevada: State population is small, although bigger than Kansas, Nebraska and West Virginia. However, the population is heavily concentrated in Las Vegas.
Hawaii: State population is too small.
Cincinnati: Potentially a good fit as the second major university in Ohio.
Boise St: State population is small. Not a land grant or flagship. BSU also has weak academics, with a USNWR national rank in the range of 231-300, and a Carnegie classification of Doctoral University - Moderate Research Activity. These are improvements from a few years ago, but still weak for consideration by a P5 conference.
Colorado St: Potentially a good fit as Colorado's Land Grant.
UNLV: Definitely the number two public university in Nevada.
Arkansas St: It may be the number two public university in Arkansas, but it is classified as a regional school by USNWR and is ranked #68 among regional schools in the south. Carnegie classifies it as a Master's University, which suggests limited research activity. These classifications make it unlikely to ever be considered by a P5 conference for membership
New Mexico St: NMSU is a Land Grant, which is good, but New Mexico's population is small and concentrated more heavily around Albuquerque near UNM.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 11:17 AM by orangefan.)
02-27-2018 11:16 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 07:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 09:05 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  That is the world we live in now......

Verucca Salk had it - I want it now, I want it all, and I want it handed to me, I don't want to work for it.


It is much easier to tell everyone it was stolen from you rather putting in the work and earning it.

It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.


Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Every school on that list brings market value except 4 or 5. And one of them is Boise St. Small market. Big tv rankings. Look at their tv numbers the past decade. Some could say not anymore....but I looked at some numbers from last year when They played a game against an awful New Mexico and drew a million viewers. Arkansas St could be another one that surprises...if they were given a chance. If a P5 team visits them I’m willing to bet the tv ratings would be scary....good. That’s why it’ll never happen.

You can't just bring a little market value, you have to bring a LOT. Media contracts for P5 these days are $25m, so if the existing schools aren't going to take a pay cut, a new school has to be worth at least $25m a year to a network.

None of those schools is. That's why the Big 12 didn't expand last year: Their network "partners" told them none of the prospective schools was worth $25m a year to them, but since the Big 12 had a clause that forced the networks to pay more if they did expand anyway, the networks paid the Big 12 not to expand.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 11:24 AM by quo vadis.)
02-27-2018 11:22 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-27-2018 11:22 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 07:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 04:32 PM)orangefan Wrote:  It is not ESPN that is keeping them down, it is their inability to earn an invitation to a P5 conference. In this regard the deck is stacked against them. A quick review of the profile of schools that are in P5 conferences demonstrates why.

First, aside from Texas, there is no state with more than two public universities that are members of P5 conferences. These are primarily the state flagship university and, if it is a different school, the Land Grant university for the state. This is not a coincidence. Such schools have large statewide alumni bases and community contacts. In addition, these schools have generated many of the business leaders within their states, creating a strong pool of potential donors and season ticket holders. In states where the Land Grant and Flagship are the same (California, Florida, and Pennsylvania for example) the second highest ranked public research university can grab the second slot (UCLA, Florida State, Pittsburgh, for example). Only in hugely populated, football crazy Texas is there a third P5 public university - Texas Tech.

The private universities are all academically excellent - all are at a minimum top 100 in the USNWR rankings. Many fill a niche that is not fully covered by the public universities in their states - Syracuse and BC are in states without a public P5 school, Vandy and Northwestern are in large cities in states with only one public P5 school. Notre Dame is a national Catholic university.

Finally, all P5 universities have been playing at a high national level for a very long time. Syracuse committed to competing in athletics at the highest level when it decided to build Archbold Stadium in 1905 and has never wavered in its commitment.

ECU is not a flagship and is not land grant university. It is located in a state that has separate flagship and land grant schools. In addition, there are two other P5 schools in the state, which further dilutes the potential fanbase and recruiting pool. It has been competing at the Division 1 level only since 1966, which may seem like a long time, but it is less than half of almost every school in P5 conferences. Finally, its academics are not exceptional, currently being ranked outside the top 200 by USNWR. Earning a P5 invite with a Texas Tech type "exception" therefore seems very unlikely.

Like many schools, there is actually very little that ECU can do to change the status quo. It should continue to focus on improving is academics and research - try to reach the top 100 in USNWR and achieve Doctoral Universities: Highest Research Activity classification from Carnegie. Winning is also important. TCU pretty much knocked the P5 door down by earning multiple BCS bids. However, they also had strong academics (USNWR #76), a long history of playing at the highest level (1938 AP National Champions), and a large local market.

Having said this, the American Conference offers a great opportunity to compete. It gives ECU access to the Texas and Florida recruiting markets. ECU appears to have a strong fanbase capable of supporting a successful ECU program. The American is the strongest non-P5 conference, and its champion should be able to earn an NY6 bid every other year on average. That bid could be ECU's on a consistent basis if it uses its already existing resources effectively.


Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Every school on that list brings market value except 4 or 5. And one of them is Boise St. Small market. Big tv rankings. Look at their tv numbers the past decade. Some could say not anymore....but I looked at some numbers from last year when They played a game against an awful New Mexico and drew a million viewers. Arkansas St could be another one that surprises...if they were given a chance. If a P5 team visits them I’m willing to bet the tv ratings would be scary....good. That’s why it’ll never happen.

You can't just bring a little market value, you have to bring a LOT. Media contracts for P5 these days are $25m, so if the existing schools aren't going to take a pay cut, a new school has to be worth at least $25m a year to a network.

None of those schools is. That's why the Big 12 didn't expand last year: Their network "partners" told them none of the prospective schools was worth $25m a year to them, but since the Big 12 had a clause that forced the networks to pay more if they did expand anyway, the networks paid the Big 12 not to expand.

You said it. “The Network partners TOLD THEM.......”
As the Boston College guy Gene the Hippo said after the ACC raided the Big East for second time “ESPN told us what to do”
02-27-2018 11:37 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-27-2018 11:37 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-27-2018 11:22 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 07:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Every school on that list brings market value except 4 or 5. And one of them is Boise St. Small market. Big tv rankings. Look at their tv numbers the past decade. Some could say not anymore....but I looked at some numbers from last year when They played a game against an awful New Mexico and drew a million viewers. Arkansas St could be another one that surprises...if they were given a chance. If a P5 team visits them I’m willing to bet the tv ratings would be scary....good. That’s why it’ll never happen.

You can't just bring a little market value, you have to bring a LOT. Media contracts for P5 these days are $25m, so if the existing schools aren't going to take a pay cut, a new school has to be worth at least $25m a year to a network.

None of those schools is. That's why the Big 12 didn't expand last year: Their network "partners" told them none of the prospective schools was worth $25m a year to them, but since the Big 12 had a clause that forced the networks to pay more if they did expand anyway, the networks paid the Big 12 not to expand.

You said it. “The Network partners TOLD THEM.......”
As the Boston College guy Gene the Hippo said after the ACC raided the Big East for second time “ESPN told us what to do”

There's nothing wrong with that. Networks have to make money, and if a conference wants to be paid X amount, it has to have the characteristics of being worth X amount.

That's not evil, monopolistic, etc., it's just the reality of how markets work.

It's not Disney's fault if USF or Memphis or ECU isn't worth another $25m to them.
02-27-2018 01:55 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-27-2018 11:16 AM)orangefan Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 06:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Ok, let’s take my team out of it and use your argument. Explain why THESE schools aren’t in the P5? This is based on your argument on flagships, and no more than 2 schools per state. These are only the FBS schools who want access; no FCS schools
UCONN: flagship of their state. 0 P5 in Connecticut
UMASS: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in Massachusetts
Buffalo: Flagship. Only 1 P5 in New York
New Mexico: Flagship. 0 P5 in New Mexico
Wyoming: Flagship. O P5 in Wyoming
Nevada: Flagship. 0 P5 in Nevada
Hawaii: Flagship. 0 P5 in Hawaii
Cincinnati: 2nd major university in Ohio. 1 P5 in Ohio.
Boise St: At least the 2nd major university in Idaho. 0 P5 in Idaho
Colorado St: At least the 2nd major university in Colorado. 1 P5 in Colorado
UNLV: At least the 2nd major university in Nevada. 0 P5 in Nevada.
Arkansas St: The 2nd major university in Arkansas. 1 P5 in Arkansas
New Mexico St: the 2nd major university in NM. 0 P5 in New Mexico

Orangefan didn't say that every public school that met his criteria were in the P5, only that those were criteria that public school P5 met.

The schools listed above have obvious flaws, the big one being that, with the possible exception of UConn, none has the market value to be worth $35m a year for a P5 conference.

You need to bring market value to the table, and these schools do not.

Correct, Quo.

UCONN: Great at basketball, but bad at musical chairs. Probably the clearest example of a G5 school that should be P5. The only major knock against them is how recently they moved to FBS.
UMASS: Too new.
Buffalo: Too new. Not a true flagship, as NYS has split this designation among 4 schools.
New Mexico: State population is small, although slightly bigger than Nebraska and West Virginia.
Wyoming: State population is way too small.
Nevada: State population is small, although bigger than Kansas, Nebraska and West Virginia. However, the population is heavily concentrated in Las Vegas.
Hawaii: State population is too small.
Cincinnati: Potentially a good fit as the second major university in Ohio.
Boise St: State population is small. Not a land grant or flagship. BSU also has weak academics, with a USNWR national rank in the range of 231-300, and a Carnegie classification of Doctoral University - Moderate Research Activity. These are improvements from a few years ago, but still weak for consideration by a P5 conference.
Colorado St: Potentially a good fit as Colorado's Land Grant.
UNLV: Definitely the number two public university in Nevada.
Arkansas St: It may be the number two public university in Arkansas, but it is classified as a regional school by USNWR and is ranked #68 among regional schools in the south. Carnegie classifies it as a Master's University, which suggests limited research activity. These classifications make it unlikely to ever be considered by a P5 conference for membership
New Mexico St: NMSU is a Land Grant, which is good, but New Mexico's population is small and concentrated more heavily around Albuquerque near UNM.

Orangefan,
Thanks for replying school by school. Was surprised you did it; I respect it. So the following out of this list are the ones who should be given access:
Uconn
Cincinnati
Colorado St
Your maybes if they had higher state population’s are:
Nevada/UNLV
New Mexico/New Mexico St
I have that right?
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 02:08 PM by billybobby777.)
02-27-2018 02:06 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-27-2018 02:06 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-27-2018 11:16 AM)orangefan Wrote:  Correct, Quo.

UCONN: Great at basketball, but bad at musical chairs. Probably the clearest example of a G5 school that should be P5. The only major knock against them is how recently they moved to FBS.
UMASS: Too new.
Buffalo: Too new. Not a true flagship, as NYS has split this designation among 4 schools.
New Mexico: State population is small, although slightly bigger than Nebraska and West Virginia.
Wyoming: State population is way too small.
Nevada: State population is small, although bigger than Kansas, Nebraska and West Virginia. However, the population is heavily concentrated in Las Vegas.
Hawaii: State population is too small.
Cincinnati: Potentially a good fit as the second major university in Ohio.
Boise St: State population is small. Not a land grant or flagship. BSU also has weak academics, with a USNWR national rank in the range of 231-300, and a Carnegie classification of Doctoral University - Moderate Research Activity. These are improvements from a few years ago, but still weak for consideration by a P5 conference.
Colorado St: Potentially a good fit as Colorado's Land Grant.
UNLV: Definitely the number two public university in Nevada.
Arkansas St: It may be the number two public university in Arkansas, but it is classified as a regional school by USNWR and is ranked #68 among regional schools in the south. Carnegie classifies it as a Master's University, which suggests limited research activity. These classifications make it unlikely to ever be considered by a P5 conference for membership
New Mexico St: NMSU is a Land Grant, which is good, but New Mexico's population is small and concentrated more heavily around Albuquerque near UNM.

Orangefan,
Thanks for replying school by school. Was surprised you did it; I respect it. So the following out of this list are the ones who should be given access:
Uconn
Cincinnati
Colorado St
Your maybes if they had higher state population’s are:
Nevada/UNLV
New Mexico/New Mexico St
I have that right?

I'm not saying "should." I am saying that if a P5 conference were considering expansion, UConn, Cincy, Colorado St., and New Mexico would all be excellent candidates because they have the characteristics of existing P5 members. I don't believe that the P5 conferences would see New Mexico as capable of supporting two P5 schools, so NMSU seems less likely. The State of Nevada has the same problem, and although the University of Nevada looks more like a P5 school, UNLV seems more likely because it is located in the state's largest population center by far and will have a great football facility to go with its existing great basketball facility once the Raiders' new stadium is complete.
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 02:44 PM by orangefan.)
02-27-2018 02:38 PM
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Jjoey52 Online
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Post: #79
Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
(02-26-2018 10:58 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Boise was a JUCO 50 years ago.


And your point is? Around the same time Florida State was a woman’s college.


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02-27-2018 06:20 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Ideas on how to make espn a mid-major.
I was making a clarification...
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2018 06:50 PM by _C2_.)
02-27-2018 06:50 PM
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