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Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 06:54 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(03-03-2018 03:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Yeah, this is just like the Big East in its heyday...not.

Yet another example of our overly pretentious society, where people try to feel more important than they are. The Big Ten doesn't even have a team in New York and no, Rutgers doesn't count as anything New York except one night 12 years ago.

You know that the Big Ten doesn't have a team in Chicago either, right?

You're either stupid, trolling or being intentionally dense. Thats like saying Buffalo, Dallas, Phoenix and Miami don't have NFL teams.
03-04-2018 07:12 PM
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AntiG Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 01:24 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:04 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 01:48 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(03-03-2018 10:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @Rutgers Guy

I'll give it to you that I don't live up there. That's why it's better to take a poll of posters. For those of you that live u there and have significant New York experience, how big is Rutgers up there? I should get the answer I expect.

I know because Houston sports aren't enormous around here and any Houston area college. The same is true in almost any city that's not home to a land grant or state flagship.

Here is where people like you get lost. All of those kids in that land grant university 30 min from NYC go somewhere to work and live. Want to take a guess where? NYC and Philly mostly.

Yeah and where do the majority of UH grads end up after graduating?

No disrespect, good of you to support your school but I doubt Rutgers does much in New York, getting lost in a sea of collegiate and sports affiliations. I can believe it for New Jersey however.

Once again this is where people like you get lost. There isn't some great divide between NJ and NYC. All of those pro and collegiate sports still exist and are followed just as closely as NYC. NYC is the #1 TV market because half of it is half of NJ. NYC is more closely aligned with NJ than it is with the rest of the state of NY.

I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if others weren't backing me up. It's okay, you don't have to be blinded by your scarlet loyalty, I know my scarlet loyalty can be blinding sometimes.

NYC has a lot of sports to keep fans occupied. Its a pro sports town (even when the Mets/Knicks absolutely stink, they are the first or second most followed show in town during their respective seasons). The college schools in the region have their alumni base but its much, much different than the rest of America where for most of a state and portions of neighboring states follow the state university religiously. That's just how it is in the region - they only really care when a program is winning big. When a school is dominating - whether its Rutgers football during the mid-2000s for a few years, Syracuse, St. John's, Seton Hall and UConn men's basketball during their glory runs in the BE - NYC has their eyes peeled. You talk about Rutgers through the lens of their losing ways right now, but you should have seen NYC in 2006, the city was buzzing about Rutgers, everyone in the office was talking Rutgers football (not initiated by me), the Empire State Building was lit up in red. Not only is Rutgers the closest FBS program to NYC, it has the most alumni both actually living in NYC and living in the DMA and much like the rest of NYC most only bother to come out of the woodwork when Rutgers is winning. In college sports, NYC was an old BE basketball town. Right now with that version of the conference gone, NYC's college fanhood is up for grabs, hence why Delany has the Big Ten here every few years. If Rutgers can get their **** together finally, NYC will be behind them again. Its really up to Rutgers whether they will be willing to spend what they need to get them over the top, it has always been about the budget which has been a back and forth battle for decades.
03-04-2018 07:13 PM
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AntiG Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 07:12 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 06:54 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(03-03-2018 03:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Yeah, this is just like the Big East in its heyday...not.

Yet another example of our overly pretentious society, where people try to feel more important than they are. The Big Ten doesn't even have a team in New York and no, Rutgers doesn't count as anything New York except one night 12 years ago.

You know that the Big Ten doesn't have a team in Chicago either, right?

You're either stupid, trolling or being intentionally dense. Thats like saying Buffalo, Dallas, Phoenix and Miami don't have NFL teams.

Actually you just made my point with Rutgers.
03-04-2018 07:14 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
Northwestern is a private school though, granted, it's much closer and more logically attached to Chicago than Rutgers is to NYC.
03-04-2018 07:19 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
I was very against it going out east, but I think people are making too much of things here. The idea was never to become what the Big East Tournament at its height was in New York. That was never going to happen and I would be surprised if anyone in power seriously considered it possible. The idea was to make the conference legitimately feel like a conference that is, in part, now a northeastern (or at least the Mid-Atlantic portion of the northeast) conference as well as a Midwestern one. The Midwest is the Big Ten's core, but it is important that the eastern 3 schools felt like in a Big Ten region themselves too and not just appendages playing in a Midwestern conference. That's how it felt to many with just Penn State for many years (that it was an east school by itself in a Midwestern conference), and they very much wanted to alter that sense this time.

For the most part, it's working. The conference is, and likely always will be primarily Midwestern, but I think the sense that these are just outpost schools is far less than it could be. As different as the 3 schools might be, they now form a block and the area feels much more like a sub-region than schools existing by themselves as outposts a long way from the rest of the conference.

All that said:
1. Going to New York once made sense, going to Madison Square Garden was a likely a mistake. Maybe for this once it was OK, but it forced the schedule into something not good for the players and that should always be a top concern.

2. The crowds are probably down for this, but opening games never draw great. Things probably would have been better in the conference core, but we probably aren't talking a great turnout for the opening games in Indianapolis or Chicago either.

3. The Big Ten deciding they want to emphasize a presence on the east coast is not a bad idea. The conference does need to this without neglecting or taking for granted their roots though. Two years in a row out east was less than ideal, but excusable with it being the welcome to Rutgers and Maryland. Going forward, 80% in the Midwest, 20% on the east coast is an acceptable idea, but that should probably come 4 years in the Midwest, 1 out east. Make the trips out east regular enough to make east coast fans feel part of this, but rare enough that the vast majority of your fans (who are coming from the Midwest) feel this is somewhat a rare thing to see.

4. The football championship needs to stay central. Attendance matters more there for conference perception. Everyone is traveling with less warning and, given location of teams and likelihood of each getting to the championship in any random year, Indianapolis is probably going to be an easier drive for somewhere around 90% of those likely to seriously consider attending.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2018 07:29 PM by ohio1317.)
03-04-2018 07:23 PM
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AntiG Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 07:19 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Northwestern is a private school though, granted, it's much closer and more logically attached to Chicago than Rutgers is to NYC.

agree, but you are talking a difference of 20 miles here. Bottom line is that they both are the #1 FBS universities of their respective major DMA and like Maryland, allow the Big Ten to have a piece of each city's huge sports followings.

I think you know being a Houston guy, that having a small chunk of top 5 market is more valuable financially than being #1 in a small market, especially when you are talking about the #1 overall market. That's why the Big Ten tourney is in NYC sometimes despite being based in the Midwest.
03-04-2018 07:26 PM
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ruinrochester Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 07:19 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Northwestern is a private school though, granted, it's much closer and more logically attached to Chicago than Rutgers is to NYC.
Actually, From the RAC, Rutgers Athletic Center, to the OuterBridge Crossing at Staten Island and the shortest point into NYC is only 12.9 miles by car... And everyone would take the train from New Brunswick (on campus walk) into the Garden and is nothing a nd a way of life to a NY/NJ resident..
03-04-2018 08:20 PM
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ruinrochester Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 08:20 PM)ruinrochester Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 07:19 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Northwestern is a private school though, granted, it's much closer and more logically attached to Chicago than Rutgers is to NYC.
Actually, From the RAC, Rutgers Athletic Center, to the OuterBridge Crossing at Staten Island and the shortest point into NYC is only 12.9 miles by car... And everyone would take the train from New Brunswick (on campus walk) into the Garden and is nothing a nd a way of life to a NY/NJ resident..
As I sit hear and think about it.. you have the Downtown New Brunswick train station (a short walk on campus at Rutgers Coll.) picking you up and dropping you off into the basement of Madison Square Garden, which is built OVER the train station.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2018 08:26 PM by ruinrochester.)
03-04-2018 08:25 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
Saying Staten Island is part of NYC is like saying San Fernando Valley is LA. I know enough about NYC to know that, local or not.
03-04-2018 08:25 PM
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ruinrochester Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 08:25 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Saying Staten Island is part of NYC is like saying San Fernando Valley is LA. I know enough about NYC to know that, local or not.
Well, if so, you can see why I added the train. NJ is wired for the train, and it's our way of life to go to NYC. But yes, Staten Island is still NYC, and is no more of a suburb than NJ is to NYC. But the distance is not what you think for how we think in the NY/NJ market. And hard for people outside the market to understand, and really don't need to care about what someone outside of the area thinks.
03-04-2018 08:34 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
Fine, how close is Rutgers to Manhattan, the action center?
03-04-2018 09:28 PM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 09:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Fine, how close is Rutgers to Manhattan, the action center?

College Ave (main campus) to Penn Station, 35 miles.

To Tottenville, Staten Island (closest spot within city limits) is about 13 miles as the crow flies.
03-04-2018 09:41 PM
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ruinrochester Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 09:41 PM)megadrone Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 09:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Fine, how close is Rutgers to Manhattan, the action center?

College Ave (main campus) to Penn Station, 35 miles.

To Tottenville, Staten Island (closest spot within city limits) is about 13 miles as the crow flies.
I show 12.9 Google maps, but really, I would love for you to go the the train station at Rutgers, on a Friday and Saturday night, and watch the students heading into the city via train. This is one LARGE market ALL connected from any direction via the train. It's our way into the city.. You are known in New Jersey by your Exit number.. all heading either north into Newark, and NYC, or South into Philadelphia... It's a lot of NJ people that call themselves part of the NYC/NJ Marketplace that the B10 wanted a taste of..
03-04-2018 09:55 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 09:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Fine, how close is Rutgers to Manhattan, the action center?

I have been to Rutgers a couple times for conferences, and both times took the train to Manhattan, as easy pie.

Cost about $11 and took 40 minutes. Very easy commute. Definitely in NYC orbit.
03-04-2018 11:59 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
I never said it wasn't. My point was more or less does Rutgers vibe in NYC?
03-05-2018 12:16 AM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-05-2018 12:16 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  I never said it wasn't. My point was more or less does Rutgers vibe in NYC?

It depends. It's an environment where the Yankees are the measuring stick for success.
03-05-2018 03:23 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-05-2018 12:16 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  I never said it wasn't. My point was more or less does Rutgers vibe in NYC?

In a general sense, no. But they don't have to. They do vibe in NYC among a certain segment, and NYC is so big that's all that's needed to constitute a substantial market.

Bottom lines here are:

1) The B1G tournament, despite its weirdo dates, had very respectable attendance in MSG.

2) Since adding Rutgers, the B1G has been making even more money than it was before. Hand over fist.

There isn't anyone in the B1G who is saying that the move in to the NYC area via Rutgers has been anything but a financial success, regardless of on field results.
03-05-2018 09:37 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-05-2018 09:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 12:16 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  I never said it wasn't. My point was more or less does Rutgers vibe in NYC?

In a general sense, no. But they don't have to. They do vibe in NYC among a certain segment, and NYC is so big that's all that's needed to constitute a substantial market.

Bottom lines here are:

1) The B1G tournament, despite its weirdo dates, had very respectable attendance in MSG.

2) Since adding Rutgers, the B1G has been making even more money than it was before. Hand over fist.

There isn't anyone in the B1G who is saying that the move in to the NYC area via Rutgers has been anything but a financial success, regardless of on field results.

Correct.

Big Ten expansion with Rutgers was never about having it as an individual school deliver the NYC market on its own. There isn't any school that's able to that by itself.

Instead, it's about the "penumbra effect" of bringing in all of the Michigan, Penn State, Ohio State, et. al alums and fans that are in the NYC market altogether. When you add all of those fans together, then that's a large critical mass to work with. The role of Rutgers isn't so much as a deliverer of the NYC market, but rather a conduit to the NYC market for the rest of the Big Ten. (You could say the same thing about the ACC's expansion into the Northeast.) Financially, the bottom line is that the BTN is getting paid in-market subscriber fees in the NYC market due to the addition of Rutgers (and the same in the DC area with Maryland), so it's certainly a financial success. Finally, long-term, the Big Ten had to get out of just its Midwestern footprint because it's the slowest-growing area of the country. The league needed to look at how the demographics of America will look like 30, 40 or 50 years from now and adjust while it still has the market power and leverage to add key pieces.

As for the basketball tournament in NYC itself, I think it's a good idea periodically even though I'm personally biased to having it in Chicago every year. That being said, it definitely was NOT worth moving the tournament up a week early and squeezing the entire regular season conference schedule just to be able to play in Madison Square Garden. Playing in Madison Square Garden itself is great, but it has to be normal timing (which may not ever be possible with the Big East's long-term agreement there). Otherwise, playing at Barclays Center is perfectly fine if the timing works out there. (Anyone suggesting Newark has clearly never been to Newark.) It appears that the Big Ten is heading back to a regular Chicago/Indianapolis rotation with an East Coast-based tournament every 5 years or so, which would be more than reasonable.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2018 10:20 AM by Frank the Tank.)
03-05-2018 10:17 AM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-05-2018 09:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 12:16 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  I never said it wasn't. My point was more or less does Rutgers vibe in NYC?

In a general sense, no. But they don't have to. They do vibe in NYC among a certain segment, and NYC is so big that's all that's needed to constitute a substantial market.

Bottom lines here are:

1) The B1G tournament, despite its weirdo dates, had very respectable attendance in MSG.

2) Since adding Rutgers, the B1G has been making even more money than it was before. Hand over fist.

There isn't anyone in the B1G who is saying that the move in to the NYC area via Rutgers has been anything but a financial success, regardless of on field results.

Especially when you consider there was a nor’easter happening outside.

I'm sure that deterred some folks from checking it out.
03-05-2018 12:37 PM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Take the Big Ten Tournament back to Chicago...
(03-04-2018 08:25 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Saying Staten Island is part of NYC is like saying San Fernando Valley is LA. I know enough about NYC to know that, local or not.

As a native Angelino I can say the Valley is part of the City of Los Angeles. Water, police, fire and libraries are run by L.A. Same with Staten Island as being a borough of New York City.

As for the B1G Tournament in NYC, it makes sense from a financial and marketing angle. But a power league like the Big Ten has no business having its tournament the week before the other power conferences.
03-05-2018 01:44 PM
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