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Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
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ken d Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  There isn’t any significant legitimate market for endorsement money but for a limited set of stars. There are plenty of major sport pro athletes who make nothing or a nominal sum.
Now if we are talking about say EA Sports or someone offering a video game with real players and every player getting a payment, I’m fine with that.
But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.
Right now if you play baseball, soccer, track, golf, tennis, or ski and you think you have endorsement value the answer is simple, go pro.
If you play basketball you can go pro overseas or play in a minor league.
Football is the only sport where the star 18 and 19 year old has no option.


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I agree there are a limited number of athletes who could command significant endorsements at this early stage of their careers. For reasons you point out, the potential for abuse of this method of providing money for athletes is too great to be a practical solution.

There aren't any easy answers to this issue. While I never thought I would ever say this, I am coming around to think that agents may be the answer. The problem is sorting out legitimate (relatively ethical) agents from the sleazebags may be too hard to overcome. Perhaps we could allow players to receive payments from agents who have been vetted and certified by both the NCAA and the NBA or NFL. There would have to be some system in which both the athletes and the agents would have to report to the vetting bodies any payments made, and the athletes would have to demonstrate by providing copies of tax returns to prove that they are above board and legal.

I think we would be surprised at the relatively small number of players who could command significant compensation from this source.
03-04-2018 09:16 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.
03-04-2018 09:47 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

Yes. Which is why this would effectively devolve into alums paying athletes to play for their school. I'd rather the schools be allowed to give the students a set amount of flexible "living expenses" that is offset by monies earned via their "endorsements/likeness" revenue. So, the schools sign over thier rights for the time they are at school in exchange for the "living expenses". The schools could sell the rights to EA and use the kids in advertising spots and the pay would go into a fund that either partially or wholly offset the "living expenses" money. I think something like that might work and would at least keep them from being dead broke all the time--but could be kept under reasonable control.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2018 09:58 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-04-2018 09:57 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
It probably will not be now, but this will be the model colleges will get too in my opinion. As fans, we might not like it, but a system where football programs are worth tens of millions or more to a school every year and where stars can only get paid in scholarships and the like will not last. The court challenges, unions, players sitting out, etc is just going to continue to increase.

People have latched onto players getting directly paid, but that only solves a little. There are huge Title 9 implications there and even if there weren't, a star quarterback is worth a lot more than a career back-up and any programs colleges put to pay will almost certainly pay everyone the same, which would fail to address most issues.

What I think will happen is eventually the NCAA throws up it's hands and says the endorsements, booster money, etc is OK so long as it is all reported and all follows very specific guidelines.

This will basically be the compromise that recognizes student-athletes for what they truly are. They are basically part employee/part student. The extent they one over the other varies tremendously. Most athletes, in virtually all sports, are primarily students, but some are there much more in something approaching an employee role (only in revenue sports). Even in the most extreme cases, all athletes are students and, as students, shouldn't be paid by schools directly. They are also part employee which means there has to be compensation available. The Olympic model compromise makes the most sense to me as it basically monetizes the extent you are a acting as employee. If you really are worth hundreds of thousands/millions to a school, you are going to get endorsement deals and booster money. If you aren't worth that, you will get much less/nothing.

Long run, this will change less than many imagine as much of the money that is currently being donated for massive athletic centers and coaching salaries will instead end up directly going to players. The biggest powers will still have advantages, but other issues will remain important. The implication I like the least is how this might allow push on students to transfer for more so you would need strong transfer rules if you went this way.
03-04-2018 11:28 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

Agreed.

Too many people are worried about potential abuses, yet the point is that the abuses ARE happening and they're all occurring under the table.

The whole point of the Olympic model is that it allows the NCAA and colleges to get out of the way of the compensation issue completely. If a car dealer booster feels that he/she wants to pay $100,000 to an offensive lineman to sign autographs for one day, then so be it. Let that player cash in on his free market value (which, unless you're going to the NFL or NBA, is going to be higher as a college recruit than at any other point in that person's life).

Once you start having caps and limits to where and how athletes start receiving endorsement money, then that's prima facie evidence that there IS an employer-employee relationship between the universities and their athletes... which is what those universities are trying to avoid in the first place. That also brings back in Title IX issues, which those universities are also trying to avoid. So, if the Olympic model is used (and I personally think that it's probably the best solution out of a set of admittedly imperfect solutions), then it has to be free of any NCAA restrictions or oversight. Otherwise, there's no point to the Olympic model at all.
03-05-2018 10:51 AM
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
Agreed.
03-05-2018 10:59 AM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #27
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

You are trading one sham for another sham and call it legit. Difference is the current sham can be punished.

Just let the schools ******* pay a salary and the kids negotiate a guaranteed contract if all you desire is swapping bogus situations and when they are employees they can get workers comp, paid benefits and their compensation will be public record at public colleges.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2018 11:16 AM by arkstfan.)
03-05-2018 11:15 AM
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tigerjamesc Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
The fact that we are arguing whether it’s okay for a free person to make $$$ off their talents and hard work is at best hypocritical. If you have a talent and work hard to be better than 90%+ of your peers, get all you can. You would call laws put in place to stop your negotiating power unfair. Let the athletes be free and quit worrying about the game. Care about the people.
03-05-2018 11:46 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-05-2018 11:15 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  You are trading one sham for another sham and call it legit. Difference is the current sham can be punished.

The current sham can theoretically be punished. Theoretically.

How many teams implicated by the FBI investigation will be in the NCAA tournament this year? 10? 20?
03-05-2018 11:48 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-05-2018 10:51 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

Agreed.

Too many people are worried about potential abuses, yet the point is that the abuses ARE happening and they're all occurring under the table.

The whole point of the Olympic model is that it allows the NCAA and colleges to get out of the way of the compensation issue completely. If a car dealer booster feels that he/she wants to pay $100,000 to an offensive lineman to sign autographs for one day, then so be it. Let that player cash in on his free market value (which, unless you're going to the NFL or NBA, is going to be higher as a college recruit than at any other point in that person's life).

Once you start having caps and limits to where and how athletes start receiving endorsement money, then that's prima facie evidence that there IS an employer-employee relationship between the universities and their athletes... which is what those universities are trying to avoid in the first place. That also brings back in Title IX issues, which those universities are also trying to avoid. So, if the Olympic model is used (and I personally think that it's probably the best solution out of a set of admittedly imperfect solutions), then it has to be free of any NCAA restrictions or oversight. Otherwise, there's no point to the Olympic model at all.

Why would you want to just substitute one fig leaf for another? Why require that booster to require that the athlete sign autographs, appear in a commercial, or perform any other service for his money? Why not just say that boosters can pay players for no reason other than agreeing to play for the booster's favorite school? Let the schools with the wealthiest and most committed boosters rule the roost out in the open.
03-05-2018 11:52 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-05-2018 11:52 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 10:51 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

Agreed.

Too many people are worried about potential abuses, yet the point is that the abuses ARE happening and they're all occurring under the table.

The whole point of the Olympic model is that it allows the NCAA and colleges to get out of the way of the compensation issue completely. If a car dealer booster feels that he/she wants to pay $100,000 to an offensive lineman to sign autographs for one day, then so be it. Let that player cash in on his free market value (which, unless you're going to the NFL or NBA, is going to be higher as a college recruit than at any other point in that person's life).

Once you start having caps and limits to where and how athletes start receiving endorsement money, then that's prima facie evidence that there IS an employer-employee relationship between the universities and their athletes... which is what those universities are trying to avoid in the first place. That also brings back in Title IX issues, which those universities are also trying to avoid. So, if the Olympic model is used (and I personally think that it's probably the best solution out of a set of admittedly imperfect solutions), then it has to be free of any NCAA restrictions or oversight. Otherwise, there's no point to the Olympic model at all.

Why would you want to just substitute one fig leaf for another? Why require that booster to require that the athlete sign autographs, appear in a commercial, or perform any other service for his money? Why not just say that boosters can pay players for no reason other than agreeing to play for the booster's favorite school? Let the schools with the wealthiest and most committed boosters rule the roost out in the open.

I'm perfectly fine with what you've stated, as well. I've long been very open that college athletes should be compensated at their free market value. I honestly don't care if a booster wants to pay $x to a top recruit directly and/or there's an actual endorsement or not. In practicality, though, the "fig leaf" is often what is needed to get people to change or perceive that a system is workable, so we have to take it as it comes.
03-05-2018 12:37 PM
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justinslot Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
Didn't the Olympic model used to mean having the national sports federations oversee college sports on a sport-by-sport basis, not the NCAA and the current conferences?

(I just had a vision of college short track speed skating which would be fantastic.)
03-05-2018 01:49 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #33
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-05-2018 12:37 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 11:52 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 10:51 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 02:21 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  But 4 Star being offered $100,000 from Bobs Used Carplex in Tuscaloosa after he signs with Bama? I ain’t buying that as a legitimate payment tied to the guy’s advertising value.

Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

Agreed.

Too many people are worried about potential abuses, yet the point is that the abuses ARE happening and they're all occurring under the table.

The whole point of the Olympic model is that it allows the NCAA and colleges to get out of the way of the compensation issue completely. If a car dealer booster feels that he/she wants to pay $100,000 to an offensive lineman to sign autographs for one day, then so be it. Let that player cash in on his free market value (which, unless you're going to the NFL or NBA, is going to be higher as a college recruit than at any other point in that person's life).

Once you start having caps and limits to where and how athletes start receiving endorsement money, then that's prima facie evidence that there IS an employer-employee relationship between the universities and their athletes... which is what those universities are trying to avoid in the first place. That also brings back in Title IX issues, which those universities are also trying to avoid. So, if the Olympic model is used (and I personally think that it's probably the best solution out of a set of admittedly imperfect solutions), then it has to be free of any NCAA restrictions or oversight. Otherwise, there's no point to the Olympic model at all.

Why would you want to just substitute one fig leaf for another? Why require that booster to require that the athlete sign autographs, appear in a commercial, or perform any other service for his money? Why not just say that boosters can pay players for no reason other than agreeing to play for the booster's favorite school? Let the schools with the wealthiest and most committed boosters rule the roost out in the open.

I'm perfectly fine with what you've stated, as well. I've long been very open that college athletes should be compensated at their free market value. I honestly don't care if a booster wants to pay $x to a top recruit directly and/or there's an actual endorsement or not. In practicality, though, the "fig leaf" is often what is needed to get people to change or perceive that a system is workable, so we have to take it as it comes.

There isn't going to be any change in the competitive outcomes if there is a payment system or not. But an endorsement system and a private pay system where the funds do not flow through the university in some form is just substituting one corruption for another.

Endorsement money will be a scam and as such violate the rules the same as the under the table cash except it will be far harder to prove and punish.

Free range to pay? Not going to happen unless it flows through the university or is at least documented with the university. Coaches mostly now are required to have their outside income flow through an arm of the school and the few that don't require the coach to document payments as well as the agreements leading to those payments.

Schools aren't going to let players take money unregulated from a third party because the third party may not share the same interests as the school. The third party might prefer that the school not cover the line or the third party may prefer that the player declare early for the pros.

If you want it (and I don't think most schools want it), it needs to flow through the school and the school is going to be a bit leery when Joe Booster agrees to $150,000 a year for four years because it isn't going to have a binding relationship to insure the money gets paid if Joe Booster isn't happy with the results, or Joe Booster goes broke, gets thrown in the pen or dies.
03-05-2018 01:50 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-05-2018 01:50 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 12:37 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 11:52 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 10:51 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-04-2018 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Why should there be some limitation based on someone's opinion of an athlete's advertising value? No doubt there are many Olympic athletes whose sponsorships reflect not only advertising value but the sponsor's intent to help support the athlete while training in his or her sport. It's still legal for a swimsuit manufacturer (for example) to pay a prospective Olympic swimmer more than the company could expect to obtain in advertising benefit.

Agreed.

Too many people are worried about potential abuses, yet the point is that the abuses ARE happening and they're all occurring under the table.

The whole point of the Olympic model is that it allows the NCAA and colleges to get out of the way of the compensation issue completely. If a car dealer booster feels that he/she wants to pay $100,000 to an offensive lineman to sign autographs for one day, then so be it. Let that player cash in on his free market value (which, unless you're going to the NFL or NBA, is going to be higher as a college recruit than at any other point in that person's life).

Once you start having caps and limits to where and how athletes start receiving endorsement money, then that's prima facie evidence that there IS an employer-employee relationship between the universities and their athletes... which is what those universities are trying to avoid in the first place. That also brings back in Title IX issues, which those universities are also trying to avoid. So, if the Olympic model is used (and I personally think that it's probably the best solution out of a set of admittedly imperfect solutions), then it has to be free of any NCAA restrictions or oversight. Otherwise, there's no point to the Olympic model at all.

Why would you want to just substitute one fig leaf for another? Why require that booster to require that the athlete sign autographs, appear in a commercial, or perform any other service for his money? Why not just say that boosters can pay players for no reason other than agreeing to play for the booster's favorite school? Let the schools with the wealthiest and most committed boosters rule the roost out in the open.

I'm perfectly fine with what you've stated, as well. I've long been very open that college athletes should be compensated at their free market value. I honestly don't care if a booster wants to pay $x to a top recruit directly and/or there's an actual endorsement or not. In practicality, though, the "fig leaf" is often what is needed to get people to change or perceive that a system is workable, so we have to take it as it comes.

There isn't going to be any change in the competitive outcomes if there is a payment system or not. But an endorsement system and a private pay system where the funds do not flow through the university in some form is just substituting one corruption for another.

Endorsement money will be a scam and as such violate the rules the same as the under the table cash except it will be far harder to prove and punish.

Free range to pay? Not going to happen unless it flows through the university or is at least documented with the university. Coaches mostly now are required to have their outside income flow through an arm of the school and the few that don't require the coach to document payments as well as the agreements leading to those payments.

Schools aren't going to let players take money unregulated from a third party because the third party may not share the same interests as the school. The third party might prefer that the school not cover the line or the third party may prefer that the player declare early for the pros.

If you want it (and I don't think most schools want it), it needs to flow through the school and the school is going to be a bit leery when Joe Booster agrees to $150,000 a year for four years because it isn't going to have a binding relationship to insure the money gets paid if Joe Booster isn't happy with the results, or Joe Booster goes broke, gets thrown in the pen or dies.

I'm not sure that I like the idea that the booster (or shoe company) shares the same interest as the school. As much as I distrust agents in general, at least I know whose interest they are looking out for. If something could be structured where the person doing the paying doesn't benefit based on what school an athlete chooses to attend it would be a better situation than the one we have now.

Those agents would have to be regulated, both by the NCAA (or whatever body governs college sports in the future) and by the relevant pro leagues, and penalties to players for using unapproved and unscrupulous agents would have to be stiff and certain.
03-05-2018 03:04 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Olympic Model Coming To College Sports?
(03-05-2018 03:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 01:50 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 12:37 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 11:52 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-05-2018 10:51 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Agreed.

Too many people are worried about potential abuses, yet the point is that the abuses ARE happening and they're all occurring under the table.

The whole point of the Olympic model is that it allows the NCAA and colleges to get out of the way of the compensation issue completely. If a car dealer booster feels that he/she wants to pay $100,000 to an offensive lineman to sign autographs for one day, then so be it. Let that player cash in on his free market value (which, unless you're going to the NFL or NBA, is going to be higher as a college recruit than at any other point in that person's life).

Once you start having caps and limits to where and how athletes start receiving endorsement money, then that's prima facie evidence that there IS an employer-employee relationship between the universities and their athletes... which is what those universities are trying to avoid in the first place. That also brings back in Title IX issues, which those universities are also trying to avoid. So, if the Olympic model is used (and I personally think that it's probably the best solution out of a set of admittedly imperfect solutions), then it has to be free of any NCAA restrictions or oversight. Otherwise, there's no point to the Olympic model at all.

Why would you want to just substitute one fig leaf for another? Why require that booster to require that the athlete sign autographs, appear in a commercial, or perform any other service for his money? Why not just say that boosters can pay players for no reason other than agreeing to play for the booster's favorite school? Let the schools with the wealthiest and most committed boosters rule the roost out in the open.

I'm perfectly fine with what you've stated, as well. I've long been very open that college athletes should be compensated at their free market value. I honestly don't care if a booster wants to pay $x to a top recruit directly and/or there's an actual endorsement or not. In practicality, though, the "fig leaf" is often what is needed to get people to change or perceive that a system is workable, so we have to take it as it comes.

There isn't going to be any change in the competitive outcomes if there is a payment system or not. But an endorsement system and a private pay system where the funds do not flow through the university in some form is just substituting one corruption for another.

Endorsement money will be a scam and as such violate the rules the same as the under the table cash except it will be far harder to prove and punish.

Free range to pay? Not going to happen unless it flows through the university or is at least documented with the university. Coaches mostly now are required to have their outside income flow through an arm of the school and the few that don't require the coach to document payments as well as the agreements leading to those payments.

Schools aren't going to let players take money unregulated from a third party because the third party may not share the same interests as the school. The third party might prefer that the school not cover the line or the third party may prefer that the player declare early for the pros.

If you want it (and I don't think most schools want it), it needs to flow through the school and the school is going to be a bit leery when Joe Booster agrees to $150,000 a year for four years because it isn't going to have a binding relationship to insure the money gets paid if Joe Booster isn't happy with the results, or Joe Booster goes broke, gets thrown in the pen or dies.

I'm not sure that I like the idea that the booster (or shoe company) shares the same interest as the school. As much as I distrust agents in general, at least I know whose interest they are looking out for. If something could be structured where the person doing the paying doesn't benefit based on what school an athlete chooses to attend it would be a better situation than the one we have now.

Those agents would have to be regulated, both by the NCAA (or whatever body governs college sports in the future) and by the relevant pro leagues, and penalties to players for using unapproved and unscrupulous agents would have to be stiff and certain.

Arkansas State had an issue with hoops player in 2005 who refused to wear Adidas because AState switched from Nike to Adidas before his senior year. He believed wearing Adidas was the reason he tore his ACL in juco. Eventually Adidas caved to make it go away as long as the Nike logo was hidden. Luckily for Adidas the guy was wearing Nike when he tore his ankle up. Ended up playing 89 minutes the entire season after playing 647 the year before.

If a kid has a deal with a shoe company directly, odds are he is going to be pushed to bolster his stats over the results of the game.
03-05-2018 03:28 PM
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