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First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #1
First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
Crime is down, ZERO weapons violations

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2018/mar/02...-no-weapo/

Quote:The number of crimes reported on the University of Kansas campus went down notably from 2016 to 2017, university police announced Friday.

Overall, crime decreased 13 percent, with 671 criminal offenses reported to KU police in 2017 compared to 770 incidents in 2016, according to a news release from the KU Office of Public Safety.

Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

Prior to 2017, campus police have recorded a total of 14 weapons violations since 2008, according to the statistics.
03-06-2018 08:48 AM
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MemTigers1998 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
who'd have ever guessed that folks are safer where law abiding citizens are carrying than they are in one of those silly "gun free" zones

#neveragain
#bantheNRA

#liberalsareidiots
(This post was last modified: 03-06-2018 08:51 AM by MemTigers1998.)
03-06-2018 08:50 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #3
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 08:48 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  Crime is down, ZERO weapons violations

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2018/mar/02...-no-weapo/

Quote:The number of crimes reported on the University of Kansas campus went down notably from 2016 to 2017, university police announced Friday.

Overall, crime decreased 13 percent, with 671 criminal offenses reported to KU police in 2017 compared to 770 incidents in 2016, according to a news release from the KU Office of Public Safety.

Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

Prior to 2017, campus police have recorded a total of 14 weapons violations since 2008, according to the statistics.

Lol....common sense wins again...and liberals can’t figure out why they keep losing.
03-06-2018 09:55 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #4
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

Quote:KU police noted that their ongoing efforts to combat crime include using “security technology” such as cameras on campus, according to Friday’s news release.

Further, the Office of Public Safety added more police and security officers in 2017, the news release said.

Three sworn police officers and three security officers were planned to be added in direct response to the start of campus carry, the Journal-World previously reported. The officers were envisioned to increase patrols in busy areas of campus, and the security officers were needed to staff portable metal detectors.

KU Police Chief Chris Keary said in the news release that he believes extra officers have been helpful.

“The campus community saw more police and security officers on foot patrol,’’ Keary said. “The added visibility of officers on campus helped people feel safer, but conversations with those officers also helped the community understand their role in safety and crime prevention.”

Violent crimes reported in 2017 varied only slightly from 2016. According to the statistics:

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon. In one robbery case, a pedestrian reported several people got out of a car, punched him and stole his wallet and phone. In the other, a pedestrian told police three men shoved him to the ground and stole two cookies he was carrying in a box.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.
(This post was last modified: 03-06-2018 10:36 AM by Redwingtom.)
03-06-2018 10:30 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #5
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

Quote:KU police noted that their ongoing efforts to combat crime include using “security technology” such as cameras on campus, according to Friday’s news release.

Further, the Office of Public Safety added more police and security officers in 2017, the news release said.

Three sworn police officers and three security officers were planned to be added in direct response to the start of campus carry, the Journal-World previously reported. The officers were envisioned to increase patrols in busy areas of campus, and the security officers were needed to staff portable metal detectors.

KU Police Chief Chris Keary said in the news release that he believes extra officers have been helpful.

“The campus community saw more police and security officers on foot patrol,’’ Keary said. “The added visibility of officers on campus helped people feel safer, but conversations with those officers also helped the community understand their role in safety and crime prevention.”

Violent crimes reported in 2017 varied only slightly from 2016. According to the statistics:

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon. In one robbery case, a pedestrian reported several people got out of a car, punched him and stole his wallet and phone. In the other, a pedestrian told police three men shoved him to the ground and stole two cookies he was carrying in a box.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

lol...I see we are running away from the liberal argument. The point is----there wasnt some wild west gun battle breaking out every time there was a disagreement---which is basically what the libs claimed would happen. The reality was law abiding citizens with guns acted just like law abiding citizens without guns. There was no change in violence. None.
(This post was last modified: 03-06-2018 11:31 AM by Attackcoog.)
03-06-2018 11:28 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #6
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 11:28 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

Quote:KU police noted that their ongoing efforts to combat crime include using “security technology” such as cameras on campus, according to Friday’s news release.

Further, the Office of Public Safety added more police and security officers in 2017, the news release said.

Three sworn police officers and three security officers were planned to be added in direct response to the start of campus carry, the Journal-World previously reported. The officers were envisioned to increase patrols in busy areas of campus, and the security officers were needed to staff portable metal detectors.

KU Police Chief Chris Keary said in the news release that he believes extra officers have been helpful.

“The campus community saw more police and security officers on foot patrol,’’ Keary said. “The added visibility of officers on campus helped people feel safer, but conversations with those officers also helped the community understand their role in safety and crime prevention.”

Violent crimes reported in 2017 varied only slightly from 2016. According to the statistics:

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon. In one robbery case, a pedestrian reported several people got out of a car, punched him and stole his wallet and phone. In the other, a pedestrian told police three men shoved him to the ground and stole two cookies he was carrying in a box.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

lol...I see we are running away from the liberal argument. The point is----there wasnt some wild west gun battle breaking out every time there was a disagreement---which is basically what the libs claimed would happen. The reality was law abiding citizens with guns acted just like law abiding citizens without guns. There was no change in violence. None.

Yup
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/03/...classrooms

Quote:What's more, Williams says, that fear of violence could discourage civil discourse, with students afraid to speak their minds "because of their worry that someone might react with armed violence instead of thoughtful debate."

A poll of more than 20,000 employees across all Kansas Board of Regents schools found overwhelming disapproval of the new law. Eighty-two percent said they would feel less safe if students were allowed to carry guns to class.

The survey also found:

Overall, 70 percent of respondents said allowing guns on campus would negatively impact their course and how they teach; 20 percent disagreed.

Two-thirds said allowing guns would limit their freedom to teach the material and engage with students in a way that optimizes learning, while 24 percent disagreed.

Nearly half said allowing concealed weapons would increase crime on campus. Just 16 percent thought it would do the opposite.

It's like when South Carolina was debating changing it's concealed carry laws. The leftist hoplophobes were saying it would result in South Carolina becoming the Wild West with shootouts in the streets. Never materialized.

Like every other time the left tries to talk about guns they talk from a position of ignorance.
03-06-2018 12:04 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #7
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 11:28 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

Quote:KU police noted that their ongoing efforts to combat crime include using “security technology” such as cameras on campus, according to Friday’s news release.

Further, the Office of Public Safety added more police and security officers in 2017, the news release said.

Three sworn police officers and three security officers were planned to be added in direct response to the start of campus carry, the Journal-World previously reported. The officers were envisioned to increase patrols in busy areas of campus, and the security officers were needed to staff portable metal detectors.

KU Police Chief Chris Keary said in the news release that he believes extra officers have been helpful.

“The campus community saw more police and security officers on foot patrol,’’ Keary said. “The added visibility of officers on campus helped people feel safer, but conversations with those officers also helped the community understand their role in safety and crime prevention.”

Violent crimes reported in 2017 varied only slightly from 2016. According to the statistics:

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon. In one robbery case, a pedestrian reported several people got out of a car, punched him and stole his wallet and phone. In the other, a pedestrian told police three men shoved him to the ground and stole two cookies he was carrying in a box.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

lol...I see we are running away from the liberal argument. The point is----there wasnt some wild west gun battle breaking out every time there was a disagreement---which is basically what the libs claimed would happen. The reality was law abiding citizens with guns acted just like law abiding citizens without guns. There was no change in violence. None.

Well, this liberal (and none that I personally know) have made that argument. I have no issue whatsoever with CCW laws as long as the carriers are subject to comprehensive training and follow the law.
(This post was last modified: 03-06-2018 12:20 PM by Redwingtom.)
03-06-2018 12:19 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #8
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 12:19 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 11:28 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

Quote:KU police noted that their ongoing efforts to combat crime include using “security technology” such as cameras on campus, according to Friday’s news release.

Further, the Office of Public Safety added more police and security officers in 2017, the news release said.

Three sworn police officers and three security officers were planned to be added in direct response to the start of campus carry, the Journal-World previously reported. The officers were envisioned to increase patrols in busy areas of campus, and the security officers were needed to staff portable metal detectors.

KU Police Chief Chris Keary said in the news release that he believes extra officers have been helpful.

“The campus community saw more police and security officers on foot patrol,’’ Keary said. “The added visibility of officers on campus helped people feel safer, but conversations with those officers also helped the community understand their role in safety and crime prevention.”

Violent crimes reported in 2017 varied only slightly from 2016. According to the statistics:

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon. In one robbery case, a pedestrian reported several people got out of a car, punched him and stole his wallet and phone. In the other, a pedestrian told police three men shoved him to the ground and stole two cookies he was carrying in a box.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

lol...I see we are running away from the liberal argument. The point is----there wasnt some wild west gun battle breaking out every time there was a disagreement---which is basically what the libs claimed would happen. The reality was law abiding citizens with guns acted just like law abiding citizens without guns. There was no change in violence. None.

Well, this liberal (and none that I personally know) have made that argument. I have no issue whatsoever with CCW laws as long as the carriers are subject to comprehensive training and follow the law.

CCW laws vary from state to state. And by obtaining a CCW permit you have effectively complied with the law in your state.

Personally, I like constitutional carry.

Keep in mind the Bill of Rights was implemented as a condition of ratification so that the citizens can keep the government in check. That is:

Quote:to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.

The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

Government has checks and balances within itself. However, the checks and balances between the government and the citizens granting power to that government is The Bill of Rights.


Think of it this way: two players are playing a game. Player 1 has the right to make the rules and enforce the rules against Player 2 but Player 2 does not have the same right against Player 1.

Why would Player 2 allowing Player 1 to make additional rules with an ever increasing pervasiveness against Player 2?
03-06-2018 01:28 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #9
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.
03-06-2018 01:36 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

Edited somewhat to point out what I'm referring to.....

You present 8 examples out of 671 crimes... not even statistically significant.... not your fault, that's all there apparently were... but more important, you simultaneously argue that the stats don't show if a weapon was involved... but then you use the fact that zero criminal weapons violations in 2017 prior to concealed carry when there were only 14 the 9 years before is the result of increased police presence

First, the fact that there were no criminal weapons charges associated with those violent crimes certainly implies that weapons weren't involved. Legal carry used to commit a crime isn't legal carry. That would be a weapons charge. I suppose there is a sliver in the law where if someone was legally carrying but never used it, mentioned it, showed it or was accused of using or mentioning or showing it while raping or robbing someone would it have been a violent crime without a weapons charge. That's a little far fetched, don't you think? If you got into a bar fight while legally carrying, there would be a weapons charge. Perhaps not a conviction, but a charge.

Second, 7/1/17 would have been the start of the new school year, so I suspect the increased police presence was ALSO started at the same time. It doesn't say either way so it's possible that they started that in the spring, but the rule change in the summer/fall, but we'd both be guessing.

So nice try yourself...

That said, it seems clear that the presence of legal guns didn't increase the violence... as Kap said in the OP, ZERO weapons violations. I agree with your other point that it probably didn't directly lead to a DECREASE, but that wasn't really the point... even (i don't think) of MT1998's comment.

Statistics show very clearly that legal carry people are accused of gun crimes less often than any other subset, including police and 'non gun' people (if you include criminals whom are prohibited from carrying them as 'non-gun). By NO means does that mean that giving access to more people/making it less stringent is a good idea... but it flies directly in the face of the idea often floated that people are 'less safe' because of legal carry. See many of the comments on teachers and carry.
(This post was last modified: 03-06-2018 01:47 PM by Hambone10.)
03-06-2018 01:45 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #11
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.

Of course it is. They've become completely open about their desires for socialist government.

More government control over the people, less objection from the people!

The best way to do that is to void the Bill of Rights.

I hope everyone realizes they've already begun dismantling the 1st Amendment: keep religion out of the public square, ban offensive speech, hijack the press to become propaganda rather than watchdog, not allowing conservative speakers to engage on college campuses.
03-06-2018 01:55 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

Edited somewhat to point out what I'm referring to.....

You present 8 examples out of 671 crimes... not even statistically significant.... not your fault, that's all there apparently were... but more important, you simultaneously argue that the stats don't show if a weapon was involved... but then you use the fact that zero criminal weapons violations in 2017 prior to concealed carry when there were only 14 the 9 years before is the result of increased police presence

First, the fact that there were no criminal weapons charges associated with those violent crimes certainly implies that weapons weren't involved. Legal carry used to commit a crime isn't legal carry. That would be a weapons charge. I suppose there is a sliver in the law where if someone was legally carrying but never used it, mentioned it, showed it or was accused of using or mentioning or showing it while raping or robbing someone would it have been a violent crime without a weapons charge. That's a little far fetched, don't you think? If you got into a bar fight while legally carrying, there would be a weapons charge. Perhaps not a conviction, but a charge.

Second, 7/1/17 would have been the start of the new school year, so I suspect the increased police presence was ALSO started at the same time. It doesn't say either way so it's possible that they started that in the spring, but the rule change in the summer/fall, but we'd both be guessing.

So nice try yourself...

That said, it seems clear that the presence of legal guns didn't increase the violence... as Kap said in the OP, ZERO weapons violations. I agree with your other point that it probably didn't directly lead to a DECREASE, but that wasn't really the point... even (i don't think) of MT1998's comment.

Statistics show very clearly that legal carry people are accused of gun crimes less often than any other subset, including police and 'non gun' people (if you include criminals whom are prohibited from carrying them as 'non-gun). By NO means does that mean that giving access to more people/making it less stringent is a good idea... but it flies directly in the face of the idea often floated that people are 'less safe' because of legal carry. See many of the comments on teachers and carry.

You know, when you think about it, if armed bank robbery was going down while the leftist was in the bank, he'd probably end up being grateful that the legal carry guy neutralized the threat thereby saving the leftist's life.

Oh, wait... carry isn't allowed in banks.

OK, change that scenario to a convenience store.
03-06-2018 01:59 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #13
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.

Ridiculous.
03-06-2018 03:15 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 10:30 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The devil is sometimes in the details. I noticed you left something out.

• There was one aggravated assault in 2017. The crime statistics do not indicate whether a weapon was involved. In 2016 there was also a single aggravated assault.

• There were two robberies on campus in 2017, up from one in 2016. The statistics do not indicate whether weapons were involved, but the Journal-World reported on two campus robberies in 2017, and neither was reported to have involved a weapon.

• In 2017, five sex offenses were reported, comprising four rapes and one fondling. There were also five sex offenses in 2016, though that year they comprised three rapes and two fondlings.

Additionally:

Quote:Notably, with lawful concealed carry of handguns being allowed on campus for the first time beginning July 1, 2017, KU police tallied zero criminal weapons violations in 2017, according to crime statistics provided by police.

So, they had no violations the first 6 months of 2017 before the concealed carry began. Pointing further to the reduction of crime being due more to an increased police presence coupled with the use of security cameras. Not to mention, it appears that the statistics don't even include whether a weapon was involved!

Nice try though.

Edited somewhat to point out what I'm referring to.....

You present 8 examples out of 671 crimes... not even statistically significant.... not your fault, that's all there apparently were... but more important, you simultaneously argue that the stats don't show if a weapon was involved... but then you use the fact that zero criminal weapons violations in 2017 prior to concealed carry when there were only 14 the 9 years before is the result of increased police presence

First, the fact that there were no criminal weapons charges associated with those violent crimes certainly implies that weapons weren't involved. Legal carry used to commit a crime isn't legal carry. That would be a weapons charge. I suppose there is a sliver in the law where if someone was legally carrying but never used it, mentioned it, showed it or was accused of using or mentioning or showing it while raping or robbing someone would it have been a violent crime without a weapons charge. That's a little far fetched, don't you think? If you got into a bar fight while legally carrying, there would be a weapons charge. Perhaps not a conviction, but a charge.

Second, 7/1/17 would have been the start of the new school year, so I suspect the increased police presence was ALSO started at the same time. It doesn't say either way so it's possible that they started that in the spring, but the rule change in the summer/fall, but we'd both be guessing.

So nice try yourself...

That said, it seems clear that the presence of legal guns didn't increase the violence... as Kap said in the OP, ZERO weapons violations. I agree with your other point that it probably didn't directly lead to a DECREASE, but that wasn't really the point... even (i don't think) of MT1998's comment.

Statistics show very clearly that legal carry people are accused of gun crimes less often than any other subset, including police and 'non gun' people (if you include criminals whom are prohibited from carrying them as 'non-gun). By NO means does that mean that giving access to more people/making it less stringent is a good idea... but it flies directly in the face of the idea often floated that people are 'less safe' because of legal carry. See many of the comments on teachers and carry.

What college do you know that starts on July 1st?

Most likely the school was in session from January 1 through sometime in May...and then the new school year began on August 21, 2017. So that even reduces the effect even further!

But my point was that there is no correlation shown here between more people on campus carrying weapons to crime...which incidentally didn't really drop all that much according to the article. Especially since we have no clue exactly how many people on campus were even carrying.

And you totally missed my main point where the officials themselves conclude that the increased police presence, more security personnel, metal detectors, and video surveillance likely led to the better crime statistics. And the increased police presence hiring began in February and they were likely all in place by July 1. So again you cannot say for certain that people carrying on campus is what lead to the crime stats as the OP implies.

Quote:The four metal detectors, accessories and a trailer to transport them cost approximately $14,000, Keary said. He said the equipment just arrived last week.

The three additional police officers will cost roughly $140,000. The three security officers will add roughly another $80,000. Uniforming and equipping the officers will add more than $30,000.

In addition to the three new police officer positions, an existing police administrator position was converted to a patrol officer position last summer, Keary said.

Keary said the hiring process has already begun. Depending on a number of factors, officers could be on the ground sometime in the next few months.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2017/feb/15...-prepare-/
03-06-2018 03:28 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #15
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:55 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.

Of course it is. They've become completely open about their desires for socialist government.

More government control over the people, less objection from the people!

The best way to do that is to void the Bill of Rights.

I hope everyone realizes they've already begun dismantling the 1st Amendment: keep religion out of the public square, ban offensive speech, hijack the press to become propaganda rather than watchdog, not allowing conservative speakers to engage on college campuses.

Exactly!

Far easier to enslave a forcibly pacified populace. Like my sig says: " ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason

We've already seen an example of the totalitarian nature of the left when they forced us at gunpoint to buy health insurance at levels of their choosing, not what was best for our situation. I shudder at the thought of what kind of tyranny would have come out of a Hillary regime.
03-06-2018 03:29 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #16
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 03:29 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:55 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.

Of course it is. They've become completely open about their desires for socialist government.

More government control over the people, less objection from the people!

The best way to do that is to void the Bill of Rights.

I hope everyone realizes they've already begun dismantling the 1st Amendment: keep religion out of the public square, ban offensive speech, hijack the press to become propaganda rather than watchdog, not allowing conservative speakers to engage on college campuses.

Exactly!

Far easier to enslave a forcibly pacified populace. Like my sig says: " ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason

We've already seen an example of the totalitarian nature of the left when they forced us at gunpoint to buy health insurance at levels of their choosing, not what was best for our situation. I shudder at the thought of what kind of tyranny would have come out of a Hillary regime.

You poor poor man...how you manage to live in this repressive country I'll never know! 03-rotfl
03-06-2018 03:32 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #17
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 03:32 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 03:29 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:55 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  The reason for an armed citizenry, according to the Founders themselves, was not to protect the people from others or to protect the government from people. The reason was specifically to protect the people from the government.

This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.

Of course it is. They've become completely open about their desires for socialist government.

More government control over the people, less objection from the people!

The best way to do that is to void the Bill of Rights.

I hope everyone realizes they've already begun dismantling the 1st Amendment: keep religion out of the public square, ban offensive speech, hijack the press to become propaganda rather than watchdog, not allowing conservative speakers to engage on college campuses.

Exactly!

Far easier to enslave a forcibly pacified populace. Like my sig says: " ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason

We've already seen an example of the totalitarian nature of the left when they forced us at gunpoint to buy health insurance at levels of their choosing, not what was best for our situation. I shudder at the thought of what kind of tyranny would have come out of a Hillary regime.

You poor poor man...how you manage to live in this repressive country I'll never know! 03-rotfl

You laugh. That's OK.

But you hold no higher place among the elitist ruling class than those with whom you disagree.

A ruling class and a ruled class. That's the end game.
03-06-2018 03:42 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #18
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 03:42 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 03:32 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 03:29 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:55 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(03-06-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  This is the biggest problem that leftists have with guns. They don't give a tinker's damn about the kids because if they did they wouldn't be ardent supporters of Planned Parenthood.

Of course it is. They've become completely open about their desires for socialist government.

More government control over the people, less objection from the people!

The best way to do that is to void the Bill of Rights.

I hope everyone realizes they've already begun dismantling the 1st Amendment: keep religion out of the public square, ban offensive speech, hijack the press to become propaganda rather than watchdog, not allowing conservative speakers to engage on college campuses.

Exactly!

Far easier to enslave a forcibly pacified populace. Like my sig says: " ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -George Mason

We've already seen an example of the totalitarian nature of the left when they forced us at gunpoint to buy health insurance at levels of their choosing, not what was best for our situation. I shudder at the thought of what kind of tyranny would have come out of a Hillary regime.

You poor poor man...how you manage to live in this repressive country I'll never know! 03-rotfl

You laugh. That's OK.

But you hold no higher place among the elitist ruling class than those with whom you disagree.

A ruling class and a ruled class. That's the end game.

Yeah, it's a desire he seeks.

I see the former administration weaponizing the IRS and DOJ against it's political opponents. One that went out of it's way to trample upon the Constitution in regards to due process, separation of powers, and illegal searches. One that got in bed with friendly radical environmental groups to enact legislation via litigation with it's use of the "Sue and Settle" policy when it lacked the legislative muscle to do so, and engaged in blatant disregard to it's duties to enforce the law of the land when called upon because it fit a political agenda.

And with the dim party swinging further and further left with each election it will only be worse with the next leftist occupant of the White House.
03-06-2018 04:15 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 01:59 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  You know, when you think about it, if armed bank robbery was going down while the leftist was in the bank, he'd probably end up being grateful that the legal carry guy neutralized the threat thereby saving the leftist's life.

Oh, wait... carry isn't allowed in banks.

OK, change that scenario to a convenience store.

In fairness, probably not.

They're convinced despite the evidence that the person robbing the bank/convenience store really would never kill anyone, and the only reason they killed the person they did was because they were trying to stop them from robbing the bank/convenience store.
03-06-2018 04:20 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: First six months of KU campus carry stats are in
(03-06-2018 03:28 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  What college do you know that starts on July 1st?

Fiscal year amigo... almost all of them. University starts long before the first day of classes.

Quote:Most likely the school was in session from January 1 through sometime in May...and then the new school year began on August 21, 2017. So that even reduces the effect even further!

but you haven't demonstrated your claim that the increased police started in January.

Following your logic only, If the school year started August 21, why did the policy change July 1? If there were no classes from May to August, then there shouldn't have been any crimes at all during that time, no? So that also reduces the effect of the increase police presence as well... and of course you admit that it wasn't in place in jan or feb.


Quote:But my point was that there is no correlation shown here between more people on campus carrying weapons to crime...which incidentally didn't really drop all that much according to the article. Especially since we have no clue exactly how many people on campus were even carrying.

Which isn't what the OP claimed... just what you want it to have been, and is substantively identical to the people saying that carry didn't lead to MORE crime

Quote:And you totally missed my main point where the officials themselves conclude that the increased police presence, more security personnel, metal detectors, and video surveillance likely led to the better crime statistics. And the increased police presence hiring began in February and they were likely all in place by July 1. So again you cannot say for certain that people carrying on campus is what lead to the crime stats as the OP implies.

So which is it? Is it significant or not? You keep going back and forth based on the point you're trying to make. It's easy to demonstrate a point based on soft evidence like this when you can change the definition of 'significant' as you see fit.

I didn't see that the hiring started in Feb... but still, I'm sure the police presence and more cameras helped to the very minor extent that it did... note that there wasn't a reduction in violent crimes (your stats) despite the higher police presence, so arguably it did nothing at all.

Quote:The four metal detectors, accessories and a trailer to transport them cost approximately $14,000, Keary said. He said the equipment just arrived last week.

The three additional police officers will cost roughly $140,000. The three security officers will add roughly another $80,000. Uniforming and equipping the officers will add more than $30,000.

In addition to the three new police officer positions, an existing police administrator position was converted to a patrol officer position last summer, Keary said.

Keary said the hiring process has already begun. Depending on a number of factors, officers could be on the ground sometime in the next few months.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2017/feb/15...-prepare-/
[/quote]

Wow... talk about misleading. The hiring process began in Feb and they said they COULD be on the ground in the next few months.... is July 1 not 'a few months' after February? If it had been May or June instead, doesn't that say (since there weren't any in Jan or Feb or at least March) that the increased police presence and equipment did nothing at all?

Consider this
Jan Feb Mar Apr (at least) no increased police, no carry
Let's go ahead with your best case scenario and say MOST of May (graduation often early May now) increased Police.
No school June, July or most of August (your point, not mine)

Meaning in a best case scenario under your own argument, the police and cameras were in place one month longer than the carry policy.

As I said, I tend to agree that the presence of carry doesn't demonstrably reduce crime. There are probably (imo, I suspect you disagree) more anecdotes where it does than anecdotes where the opposite is true, but those aren't statistics.

Statistics show that 'carry' people commit vastly fewer crimes than 'the average person'.... even fewer than cops.

As to the statement that officials made, you imply that they said it was this OVER the presence of guns. I don't see that they said that. I certainly wouldn't expect a University official (for a variety of reasons) to give credit to people carrying guns, even if it were true. There is no more evidence suggesting one was more important than the other, but I think it fair to say that if you spend $250,000 more per year on security, that you're going to want to attribute success (even marginal success) to that expense.
03-06-2018 04:53 PM
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