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Hurley hired at UConn
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dbackjon Online
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Post: #41
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 01:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's also a little safer at UConn. You never want to be the guy after THE guy, and now Hurley doesn't have to deal with that. Sure, folks will still measure him to Calhoun...he doesn't have to worry about that as much as his now predecessor did (and really, if that isn't GHT about how much it sucks being the guy after a legend, add UConn to that list).

This is an incredibly strong point. Craig Esherick (Georgetown), Bill Guthridge (UNC), Mike Davis (Indiana), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Gene Bartow (UCLA), among many others, were put in impossible position of following a legend and facing the challenging task of maintaining the prior level of success. While I think all did remarkably well considering such conditions, none lasted very long in the role. Louisville will face this. Syracuse, UNC and Duke will one day in the next few years face this.

You almost require a "transition" coach in order to effectively keep the program's high success rate.

Add Lute Olson to Kevin O'Neil/Russ Pennell, now Sean Miller at Arizona
03-22-2018 02:25 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 02:25 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 01:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's also a little safer at UConn. You never want to be the guy after THE guy, and now Hurley doesn't have to deal with that. Sure, folks will still measure him to Calhoun...he doesn't have to worry about that as much as his now predecessor did (and really, if that isn't GHT about how much it sucks being the guy after a legend, add UConn to that list).

This is an incredibly strong point. Craig Esherick (Georgetown), Bill Guthridge (UNC), Mike Davis (Indiana), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Gene Bartow (UCLA), among many others, were put in impossible position of following a legend and facing the challenging task of maintaining the prior level of success. While I think all did remarkably well considering such conditions, none lasted very long in the role. Louisville will face this. Syracuse, UNC and Duke will one day in the next few years face this.

You almost require a "transition" coach in order to effectively keep the program's high success rate.

Add Lute Olson to Kevin O'Neil/Russ Pennell, now Sean Miller at Arizona

Yep. and not just in basketball. Think Alabama football how many coaches did it take from Bryant to Saban(even Stallings was 2 coaches removed from Bryant). Even Ohio State football had an interim guy between Tressel and Meyer.
03-22-2018 02:28 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 02:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 02:25 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 01:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's also a little safer at UConn. You never want to be the guy after THE guy, and now Hurley doesn't have to deal with that. Sure, folks will still measure him to Calhoun...he doesn't have to worry about that as much as his now predecessor did (and really, if that isn't GHT about how much it sucks being the guy after a legend, add UConn to that list).

This is an incredibly strong point. Craig Esherick (Georgetown), Bill Guthridge (UNC), Mike Davis (Indiana), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Gene Bartow (UCLA), among many others, were put in impossible position of following a legend and facing the challenging task of maintaining the prior level of success. While I think all did remarkably well considering such conditions, none lasted very long in the role. Louisville will face this. Syracuse, UNC and Duke will one day in the next few years face this.

You almost require a "transition" coach in order to effectively keep the program's high success rate.

Add Lute Olson to Kevin O'Neil/Russ Pennell, now Sean Miller at Arizona

Yep. and not just in basketball. Think Alabama football how many coaches did it take from Bryant to Saban(even Stallings was 2 coaches removed from Bryant). Even Ohio State football had an interim guy between Tressel and Meyer.

Luke Fickell was an isolated case because he was a legit interim coach. Tressel was fired late in the offseason, and he was named interim coach for the only season. The school did not officially hire a new football coach until Urban Meyer the following offseason.

Florida is another example from Steve Spurrier to Ron Zook (followed by Urban Meyer). Penn State, in due time, from Paterno to Bill O'Brien to James Franklin, will likely be viewed the same way. Rich Rodriguez at Michigan (after Lloyd Carr). Charlie Strong at Texas (after Mack Brown). All are "transition coaches".

Other examples where a legendary coaching transition actually worked: Jimbo Fisher (from Bobby Bowden at Florida State) and Rick Pitino (from Denny Crum at Louisville).
03-22-2018 03:02 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 02:14 PM)stever20 Wrote:  So TLDR, top of AAC > top of A-10 > bottom of AAC > bottom of A-10, for basketball coaching jobs.
the top 5 would be for AAC- Cincy, Wichita, UConn, Memphis, and Houston now.
The top 5 would be for A10- VCU, Dayton, Saint Louis, Davidson, and Rhode Island

Very possible the AAC goes 5-0 in those 5 games. Then you have programs in the AAC like SMU, Temple, UCF who 2 of the 3 have made the tourney in the last few years and then UCF was in New York for the NIT. Who does the A10 have to compete with that?
[/quote]

I think everyone agrees on that. The top, middle and bottom of the AAC > the top, middle and bottom of the A-10. But usually in conference pecking order these days, leagues on different levels are just that--on different levels. The worst Big 10 job is better than the best Missouri Valley job. DePaul could easily poach a coach from MIddle Tennessee or Nevada.

The AAC and A-10 are almost unique in that they straddle power levels. VCU, Dayton, SLU look like major basketball programs on the business side (even if the on-court results don't show it). The bottom half of the AAC and the bottom 2/3 of the A-10 wouldn't look out of place in one-bid leagues like the MAC or MVC.

The tectonic plates are moving in the direction of the big conferences. The medium-term question is whether the A-10 can keep up.
03-22-2018 03:02 PM
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dbackjon Online
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Post: #45
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 02:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 02:25 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 01:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's also a little safer at UConn. You never want to be the guy after THE guy, and now Hurley doesn't have to deal with that. Sure, folks will still measure him to Calhoun...he doesn't have to worry about that as much as his now predecessor did (and really, if that isn't GHT about how much it sucks being the guy after a legend, add UConn to that list).

This is an incredibly strong point. Craig Esherick (Georgetown), Bill Guthridge (UNC), Mike Davis (Indiana), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Gene Bartow (UCLA), among many others, were put in impossible position of following a legend and facing the challenging task of maintaining the prior level of success. While I think all did remarkably well considering such conditions, none lasted very long in the role. Louisville will face this. Syracuse, UNC and Duke will one day in the next few years face this.

You almost require a "transition" coach in order to effectively keep the program's high success rate.

Add Lute Olson to Kevin O'Neil/Russ Pennell, now Sean Miller at Arizona

Yep. and not just in basketball. Think Alabama football how many coaches did it take from Bryant to Saban(even Stallings was 2 coaches removed from Bryant). Even Ohio State football had an interim guy between Tressel and Meyer.

And after Woody Hayes...
03-22-2018 03:09 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 03:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 02:14 PM)stever20 Wrote:  So TLDR, top of AAC > top of A-10 > bottom of AAC > bottom of A-10, for basketball coaching jobs.
the top 5 would be for AAC- Cincy, Wichita, UConn, Memphis, and Houston now.
The top 5 would be for A10- VCU, Dayton, Saint Louis, Davidson, and Rhode Island

Very possible the AAC goes 5-0 in those 5 games. Then you have programs in the AAC like SMU, Temple, UCF who 2 of the 3 have made the tourney in the last few years and then UCF was in New York for the NIT. Who does the A10 have to compete with that?

I think everyone agrees on that. The top, middle and bottom of the AAC > the top, middle and bottom of the A-10. But usually in conference pecking order these days, leagues on different levels are just that--on different levels. The worst Big 10 job is better than the best Missouri Valley job. DePaul could easily poach a coach from MIddle Tennessee or Nevada.

The AAC and A-10 are almost unique in that they straddle power levels. VCU, Dayton, SLU look like major basketball programs on the business side (even if the on-court results don't show it). The bottom half of the AAC and the bottom 2/3 of the A-10 wouldn't look out of place in one-bid leagues like the MAC or MVC.

The tectonic plates are moving in the direction of the big conferences. The medium-term question is whether the A-10 can keep up.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure I'd say bottom half of the AAC. I mean you have Cincy, Wichita, and Houston now who are all solid. Memphis and UConn should be back pretty quickly. Temple, SMU, and UCF are all 3 pretty good now as well. That's 8 right there or 2/3. Heck, Tulsa is not that bad either. So that's 3/4. There's only 3 or 4 A10 programs that would match up with those 9.
03-22-2018 03:10 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
Where it worked: Temple basketball with Chaney to Dunphy. Granted, it took a lot of stuff to go wrong at Penn to help out Temple there. Didn't hurt that Chaney was in decline those years at the end (but still good enough for the NIT).

I'd argue that until Franklin won the Big Ten championship two seasons ago, the shadow of Paterno would still be in place. People were really hopeful Franklin would be shown the door until that one game with Ohio State...
03-22-2018 03:20 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 03:02 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 02:14 PM)stever20 Wrote:  So TLDR, top of AAC > top of A-10 > bottom of AAC > bottom of A-10, for basketball coaching jobs.
the top 5 would be for AAC- Cincy, Wichita, UConn, Memphis, and Houston now.
The top 5 would be for A10- VCU, Dayton, Saint Louis, Davidson, and Rhode Island

Very possible the AAC goes 5-0 in those 5 games. Then you have programs in the AAC like SMU, Temple, UCF who 2 of the 3 have made the tourney in the last few years and then UCF was in New York for the NIT. Who does the A10 have to compete with that?

I think everyone agrees on that. The top, middle and bottom of the AAC > the top, middle and bottom of the A-10. But usually in conference pecking order these days, leagues on different levels are just that--on different levels. The worst Big 10 job is better than the best Missouri Valley job. DePaul could easily poach a coach from MIddle Tennessee or Nevada.

The AAC and A-10 are almost unique in that they straddle power levels. VCU, Dayton, SLU look like major basketball programs on the business side (even if the on-court results don't show it). The bottom half of the AAC and the bottom 2/3 of the A-10 wouldn't look out of place in one-bid leagues like the MAC or MVC.

The tectonic plates are moving in the direction of the big conferences. The medium-term question is whether the A-10 can keep up.
[/quote]

I don’t think there’s anyone who reasonably believes the A-10 is better than the AAC. I do think is is reasonable to say that the A-10 is the 8th best league in college basketball outside of the P5, BE and AAC. There’s a lot of depth in the league, every current team except for Fordham and Duquesne has made the tournament at least once since 2011.
03-22-2018 03:21 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 03:09 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 02:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 02:25 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 01:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 12:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's also a little safer at UConn. You never want to be the guy after THE guy, and now Hurley doesn't have to deal with that. Sure, folks will still measure him to Calhoun...he doesn't have to worry about that as much as his now predecessor did (and really, if that isn't GHT about how much it sucks being the guy after a legend, add UConn to that list).

This is an incredibly strong point. Craig Esherick (Georgetown), Bill Guthridge (UNC), Mike Davis (Indiana), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Gene Bartow (UCLA), among many others, were put in impossible position of following a legend and facing the challenging task of maintaining the prior level of success. While I think all did remarkably well considering such conditions, none lasted very long in the role. Louisville will face this. Syracuse, UNC and Duke will one day in the next few years face this.

You almost require a "transition" coach in order to effectively keep the program's high success rate.

Add Lute Olson to Kevin O'Neil/Russ Pennell, now Sean Miller at Arizona

Yep. and not just in basketball. Think Alabama football how many coaches did it take from Bryant to Saban(even Stallings was 2 coaches removed from Bryant). Even Ohio State football had an interim guy between Tressel and Meyer.

And after Woody Hayes...

fair point. And it's not just in college sports either. You never want to be the guy replacing the legend. You want to be the guy replacing the guy. Very rarely does a guy replacing a legend do well. There are exceptions (Jimmy Johnson with the Cowboys replacing Tom Landry)- but that's just it- an exception.
03-22-2018 03:23 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 12:23 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  RI should hire Iona coach. That guy should get a lot more hype than he gets.

Great call.
03-22-2018 03:59 PM
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Pervis_Griffith Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 03:02 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Other examples where a legendary coaching transition actually worked: Jimbo Fisher (from Bobby Bowden at Florida State) and Rick Pitino (from Denny Crum at Louisville).


I think Pitino following Denny Crum eased what could have been a brutal succession, given Crum's 30 years on the job, and really breaking through for the school with 2 national titles. Pitino's history, and his charisma, could handle the load of taking over for Crum.

This next hire, will get a bit of a reprieve, given the reasons why there is a vacancy.

It's ok to be the guy who replace the guy, when a litany of scandals brought down the old guy in the first place.
03-22-2018 05:38 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 05:38 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  It's ok to be the guy who replace the guy, when a litany of scandals brought down the old guy in the first place.

I don't think folks will there. They'll project what they liked about him there, his winning culture, and minimize the scale of the scandals. He couldn't get the wins without getting his hands dirty, but folks won't necessarily embrace that for the entirety of his career. Could very well be they'll split the difference, and think there were times when he wasn't "all that bad." Folks are well aware this wasn't just a Louisville thing, and that will pad his image some, I'm sure.

It's going to be brutal there at the 'Ville. They love hoops enough that they'll get through it, but, I don't think it bodes well for the next guy.

I'm not envious of what happens at Villanova after Wright. Steve Lappas wasn't terrible at Villanova after Rollie, and the guy only had two sub-.500 seasons (one was his first season after inheriting Rollie's messes toward the end). This is the guy that got Kerry Kittles and Tim Thomas mind you, wasn't signed because he supposedly "couldn't recruit?" He got back to the tournament faster than Wright did (although Villanova fans will say Lappas was the reason Wright struggled early on...can't fully believe that for three straight years). Wright is a Rollie guy, though...not surprising they would go back to that well. Definitely far more fair and patient with Jay than they were with Steve. However, folks were getting awfully tired of hasty first weekend tournament exits with Jay until the national championship season. Actually, this decade, this is only the second time Jay's escaped the first weekend; the other being the year they won it all.
(This post was last modified: 03-22-2018 07:02 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-22-2018 06:59 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 11:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 11:19 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  
(03-22-2018 11:10 AM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  That’s too bad. He could have been a legend at Rhode Island, he is just another coach at UConn. Calhoun gets the statue there,.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You can win national titles at UConn. You can't at Rhode Island.
yeah, your reward for a 15-3 25-7 season at Rhode Island is the worst 7 seed. Houston in the AAC was 14-4 26-7 and they were #23(2nd worst 6 seed).

OOC Rhode Island was #3 SOS. Houston was #239.

And that just shows the difference between the conferences.

Looking at Pomeroy, Houston (18) was underseeded, and URI (53) was way overseeded.
03-25-2018 10:49 AM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
(03-22-2018 12:23 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  RI should hire Iona coach. That guy should get a lot more hype than he gets.

Agreed.
03-25-2018 10:50 AM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
Schools with multiple Final Fours:

American - 6
Cincy - 6
UConn - 5
Houston - 5
Memphis - 3
Temple - 2
Wichita - 2

A10 - 1
La Salle - 2

End of discussion.
03-25-2018 10:59 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Hurley hired at UConn
Cluess would be a great hire. They should also look at JTIII.
03-25-2018 11:06 AM
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