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WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #41
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
Are the WCC schools that much poorer or lower enrollment than the Big East schools?

I have to wonder if the WCC invested as much as the Big East schools, they could be the Big East of the Western US in basketball prowess rather than just a similar religious, private conference .
03-27-2018 06:39 PM
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Post: #42
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 06:39 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Are the WCC schools that much poorer or lower enrollment than the Big East schools?

I have to wonder if the WCC invested as much as the Big East schools, they could be the Big East of the Western US in basketball prowess rather than just a similar religious, private conference .

Hahaha...big east is a giant; WCC is a dwarf.
03-27-2018 07:48 PM
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Post: #43
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 03:39 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Puke, I don't know what people see in Grand Canyon.

An ass ton of money.
03-27-2018 08:25 PM
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Post: #44
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 06:39 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Are the WCC schools that much poorer or lower enrollment than the Big East schools?

I have to wonder if the WCC invested as much as the Big East schools, they could be the Big East of the Western US in basketball prowess rather than just a similar religious, private conference .

I would normally scoff but if San Francisco had taken advantage of their name and past hertiage, and put together a decent program, the WCC would be a solid conference at least 4 deep. Then again, they de-emphasized basketball because it got too big and corrupt.

But with a better San Francisco and Loyola Marymount, big names from the past, the WCC could be a Big East of the West Coast. Seattle if they were added too.
03-27-2018 09:53 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #45
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 09:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:39 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Are the WCC schools that much poorer or lower enrollment than the Big East schools?

I have to wonder if the WCC invested as much as the Big East schools, they could be the Big East of the Western US in basketball prowess rather than just a similar religious, private conference .

I would normally scoff but if San Francisco had taken advantage of their name and past hertiage, and put together a decent program, the WCC would be a solid conference at least 4 deep. Then again, they de-emphasized basketball because it got too big and corrupt.

But with a better San Francisco and Loyola Marymount, big names from the past, the WCC could be a Big East of the West Coast. Seattle if they were added too.

Yes, and even Pepperdine had some decent teams at one point.

But if I'm Gonzaga, I'm thinking, "would, could, shoulda... Didn't." Gonzaga has made it to 20 straight tournaments and the only school that had even attempted to compete at a high level is St. Mary's. BYU has tried, too, but they were a gift to the WCC when the Cougars decided to go independent in football.

Gonzaga is crazy if the don't go to the MW now. The WCC just is not going to get better, even with these new Gonzaga-friendly rules.
03-27-2018 10:01 PM
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Post: #46
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 03:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:11 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Well well

... maybe Gonzaga stays

Why the lack of an announcement from Gonzaga?
They’ve had the WCC by the nads for 2 weeks with this MWC stuff causing BYU to have an ulcer (doubt the other WCC schools even know what we’re talking about)
Gonzaga: You got all the concessions you wanted. Tell the WCC you are staying.

No need to respond yet. Roth and Few have said they will sit down with Robert McCulloh (first lay President) over the next week and decide what is best for GU. I am pretty sure this will be decided in about 10-15 days.

Speculation: They will take these concessions, and if especially any change in credit allotment and see what the MWC counter offer is ("leverage"). The MWC could respond the following ways
1. 30% TV share (~$450K next year) instead of 25% (~$375K) -- Zeigler suggested this (means heard from some MWC guy)
2. Accelerate credit shares (say get 25% share of accumulated credits from MWC prior years to their entry
3. Waive entry fee
These moves would essentially eliminate the financial penalty for moving, or at least reduce the upfront cost.

If Gonzaga stays in the WCC and do so after they negotiate hard ball with the MWC for concessions, that would likely burn that bridge for a number of years.

This isn't going to drag on. It's either going to happen or not happen. I'd be shocked if this wasn't resolved long before May 1st.
03-27-2018 10:44 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #47
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 10:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:11 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Well well

... maybe Gonzaga stays

Why the lack of an announcement from Gonzaga?
They’ve had the WCC by the nads for 2 weeks with this MWC stuff causing BYU to have an ulcer (doubt the other WCC schools even know what we’re talking about)
Gonzaga: You got all the concessions you wanted. Tell the WCC you are staying.

No need to respond yet. Roth and Few have said they will sit down with Robert McCulloh (first lay President) over the next week and decide what is best for GU. I am pretty sure this will be decided in about 10-15 days.

Speculation: They will take these concessions, and if especially any change in credit allotment and see what the MWC counter offer is ("leverage"). The MWC could respond the following ways
1. 30% TV share (~$450K next year) instead of 25% (~$375K) -- Zeigler suggested this (means heard from some MWC guy)
2. Accelerate credit shares (say get 25% share of accumulated credits from MWC prior years to their entry
3. Waive entry fee
These moves would essentially eliminate the financial penalty for moving, or at least reduce the upfront cost.

If Gonzaga stays in the WCC and do so after they negotiate hard ball with the MWC for concessions, that would likely burn that bridge for a number of years.

This isn't going to drag on. It's either going to happen or not happen. I'd be shocked if this wasn't resolved long before May 1st.

It probably already resolved since Easter break is coming up.
03-27-2018 11:09 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #48
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 10:01 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 09:53 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 06:39 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Are the WCC schools that much poorer or lower enrollment than the Big East schools?

I have to wonder if the WCC invested as much as the Big East schools, they could be the Big East of the Western US in basketball prowess rather than just a similar religious, private conference .

I would normally scoff but if San Francisco had taken advantage of their name and past hertiage, and put together a decent program, the WCC would be a solid conference at least 4 deep. Then again, they de-emphasized basketball because it got too big and corrupt.

But with a better San Francisco and Loyola Marymount, big names from the past, the WCC could be a Big East of the West Coast. Seattle if they were added too.

Yes, and even Pepperdine had some decent teams at one point.

But if I'm Gonzaga, I'm thinking, "would, could, shoulda... Didn't." Gonzaga has made it to 20 straight tournaments and the only school that had even attempted to compete at a high level is St. Mary's. BYU has tried, too, but they were a gift to the WCC when the Cougars decided to go independent in football.

Gonzaga is crazy if the don't go to the MW now. The WCC just is not going to get better, even with these new Gonzaga-friendly rules.

Forgot about Pepperdine and the Steve Nash days.
03-27-2018 11:10 PM
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Post: #49
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
The Steve Nash Santa Clara teams were a total flash in the pan, just like the Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers/Paul Westhead LMU teams.
03-28-2018 12:03 AM
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Post: #50
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 10:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:11 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Well well

... maybe Gonzaga stays

Why the lack of an announcement from Gonzaga?
They’ve had the WCC by the nads for 2 weeks with this MWC stuff causing BYU to have an ulcer (doubt the other WCC schools even know what we’re talking about)
Gonzaga: You got all the concessions you wanted. Tell the WCC you are staying.

No need to respond yet. Roth and Few have said they will sit down with Robert McCulloh (first lay President) over the next week and decide what is best for GU. I am pretty sure this will be decided in about 10-15 days.

Speculation: They will take these concessions, and if especially any change in credit allotment and see what the MWC counter offer is ("leverage"). The MWC could respond the following ways
1. 30% TV share (~$450K next year) instead of 25% (~$375K) -- Zeigler suggested this (means heard from some MWC guy)
2. Accelerate credit shares (say get 25% share of accumulated credits from MWC prior years to their entry
3. Waive entry fee
These moves would essentially eliminate the financial penalty for moving, or at least reduce the upfront cost.

If Gonzaga stays in the WCC and do so after they negotiate hard ball with the MWC for concessions, that would likely burn that bridge for a number of years.

This isn't going to drag on. It's either going to happen or not happen. I'd be shocked if this wasn't resolved long before May 1st.

So Wichita State wired $2.5 million to the AAC to join and lost about $1 million in revenue from the MVC. That is the kind of move you make if you really want to join a conference. The AAC did not make any concessions to Wichita State.

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wic...58984.html

If the MWC is making concessions to Gonzaga, then it looks like the MWC needs Gonzaga more than Gonzaga needs them. It makes the MWC look desperate.
03-28-2018 01:33 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
SoCal,

Both MWC and WCC semi-desperate. I do think the entry fee will be waived, as the MWC has done that with Boise State. SO a precedent has been set. Zeigler suggested that also, so I think both that and 30% instead of 25% for TV are part of the planned offer. The value amount for the TV came from Dennis Dodd, but it matches what we have known of the MWC contract already. (I know Hawaii does not get a cut, they have their own TV deal, but that is a completely separate and strange item)

The partial Credit award thing was my suggestion. (Note, I labelled even the reported concessions from Zeigler as speculation ... I am trying to label things reported, commentary, and speculation for clarity, trying to keep one from bleeding into the other)

The American had more leverage on Wichita State, so no real concessions. But when the they wanted Boise State and San Diego State --the latter negotiated even better with both the American and Big West with no exit fees-- the American made significant concessions. So it is a leverage thing, each school's situation varies. The MWC made counter concessions and pulled Boise State back.

These things can vary from the sticker prices, and they get negotiated. Leverage. For the MWC it's sort of a now or never thing, because their TV contract is next year. So Gonzaga has more leverage. It's probably as simple as that.

MWCTex,

Agree, this will likely be resolved before tax day, at least informally.

If I had to guess an order of events I think it'd be:
1) GU has first internal meeting, tells WCC act on demands or we're gone (they had long ago proposed tourney reform and 16 game sched)
- also asked for earning school to keep more of credits
2) WCC responds by approving GU demands (well if they leave the conference is down to 9 and 16 games anyway)
3) GU holds second internal meeting to discuss #2
4) GU goes to MWC for information on terms and presses for best terms some (not super hard)
5) MWC gives terms with WCC response in mind, lets them know parameters of what can be negotiated.
6) GU holds third and critical meeting to decide whether to proceed with MWC or end process
- if process ends they will in short order inform WCC
7) If GU decides to proceed, details are hammered out for agreement, but most terms on large scale in place
8) agreement in principle to accept invite ("handshake mode"), details go to lawyers and contracts people
9) when details are completed and final terms acceptable to both sides, then the MWC Presidents will vote to extend invite
10) GU and MWC set up press conference

We are probably at step 3 or if it's moving freight train fast step 4. (Actual steps could be different, this is my stab in the dark at it)

As to the "Big East" of the West Coast for the WCC:

It's been a very long time since any WCC program had great prominence other than the Zags. SMC has a good run, before that SCU, LMU back in the day, and before all the USF was a serious national power on the level of Gonzaga producing NBA starters, but also SMU like payola scandals. If you look at the schools today, SMC is really tiny, USF is sort of boxed in in SF and can't do much. LMU has a really nice campus, Pepperdine one of the coolest locations. But when you look at athletic facilities, after BYU and Gonzaga, probably Santa Clara has the best -- advantage of being in a suburb and in Silicon Valley, so the wealthiest alumni; also helped they hosted MLS for years. But I would not put them on par with the bigger public schools in California. There just isn't the level of support from fans, money or recruiting to be a big league.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2018 02:22 PM by Stugray2.)
03-28-2018 03:35 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #52
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-27-2018 03:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Gonzaga: You got all the concessions you wanted. Tell the WCC you are staying.

Chest-thumping and saber-rattling is what they wanted? Because that's all the conference did.

I really don't see what Gonzaga gets from these WCC changes. Forced accountability from the others? What, you mean among Gonzaga's demands is forcing (or attempting to force; I doubt these changes are enforceable) other WCC programs to do what Gonzaga does?

The kind of changes I envision Gonzaga would demand would include their credits and shares from THEIR work that all in the WCC take. Gonzaga basketball makes the WCC rich...Gonzaga should get a better cut of that, or, at the very least, the conference should have measures in place, maybe benchmarking, that takes from those not putting in to put back into Gonzaga. Like, LMU or Santa Clara sitting in the WCC basement for four straight years, and repeat that to see a portion of your money go to the top of the conference.

I get the impression Gonzaga's really done with all of this. Nothing's going to change out there because these programs don't want to do the work. And it's been long enough. Really, it has.

I worked with someone who was in the know of things at one of the WCC schools. This was 12-15 years ago when Gonzaga's success was evident but ahead of anything thought to be thoroughly consistent. Back then, you did have some of these other WCC schools trying to emulate Gonzaga...they hired Gonzaga assistants, hired derivative guys who worked with those guys, etc.. That didn't really do anything for anyone out there for very long, and with most of those experiments running their course, the efforts weren't repeated.

The WCC seems content letting Gonzaga rule its men's basketball. I mean, it already does enough for the Zags. All of these changes are just more applications of lipstick to the pig. It's not going to change the culture at any of these schools.

And if Gonzaga passes on MWC, St. Mary's would be smart to offer themselves as a replacement.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2018 04:59 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-28-2018 04:55 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #53
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-28-2018 12:03 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  The Steve Nash Santa Clara teams were a total flash in the pan, just like the Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers/Paul Westhead LMU teams.

But, my point still remains. Those WCC schools didn't capitalize on the success like Gonzaga. If they did, I think they could have been the Big East of the West. They stayed small and didn't improve their facilities.
It's fine and all that they didn't and focused on other things, but just thinking what could have been possible.
03-28-2018 06:56 AM
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Post: #54
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
How could they capitalize? Do you know the kind of miracle it is that Gonzaga has built what they built? Do you know what kind of miracle it is SMC has a team that can not only reach the NCAA's but win if they get in? No one in the WCC should have a team like either. It's like asking a AA baseball team to make the MLB playoffs.

These are tiny religious schools with small finances. None should be winning much outside their conference.
03-28-2018 11:08 AM
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billings Offline
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Post: #55
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
Twitter has spoken. Zags to MWC next week

https://twitter.com/josh_linke/status/97...4042161152
03-28-2018 11:25 AM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #56
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-28-2018 11:25 AM)billings Wrote:  Twitter has spoken. Zags to MWC next week

https://twitter.com/josh_linke/status/97...4042161152

So, the San Diego Tribune and a twitter fan boy have sole control of the Gonzaga and MWC sources?
03-28-2018 11:36 AM
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billings Offline
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Post: #57
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-28-2018 11:36 AM)YNot Wrote:  
(03-28-2018 11:25 AM)billings Wrote:  Twitter has spoken. Zags to MWC next week

https://twitter.com/josh_linke/status/97...4042161152

So, the San Diego Tribune and a twitter fan boy have sole control of the Gonzaga and MWC sources?


Yea just a fan boy. chuckle
03-28-2018 01:10 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #58
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-28-2018 06:56 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(03-28-2018 12:03 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  The Steve Nash Santa Clara teams were a total flash in the pan, just like the Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers/Paul Westhead LMU teams.

But, my point still remains. Those WCC schools didn't capitalize on the success like Gonzaga. If they did, I think they could have been the Big East of the West. They stayed small and didn't improve their facilities.
It's fine and all that they didn't and focused on other things, but just thinking what could have been possible.

I think they could be the A10 of the west. Right now, with the exception of the top three, likening them to the MAAC is an insult...to the MAAC.
03-28-2018 01:21 PM
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Post: #59
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
This. If they ever added a public school or three, that'd be a direct comparison.
03-28-2018 01:48 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #60
RE: WCC approves changes to conference, tournament schedules
(03-28-2018 01:33 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 10:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-27-2018 03:11 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Well well

... maybe Gonzaga stays

Why the lack of an announcement from Gonzaga?
They’ve had the WCC by the nads for 2 weeks with this MWC stuff causing BYU to have an ulcer (doubt the other WCC schools even know what we’re talking about)
Gonzaga: You got all the concessions you wanted. Tell the WCC you are staying.

No need to respond yet. Roth and Few have said they will sit down with Robert McCulloh (first lay President) over the next week and decide what is best for GU. I am pretty sure this will be decided in about 10-15 days.

Speculation: They will take these concessions, and if especially any change in credit allotment and see what the MWC counter offer is ("leverage"). The MWC could respond the following ways
1. 30% TV share (~$450K next year) instead of 25% (~$375K) -- Zeigler suggested this (means heard from some MWC guy)
2. Accelerate credit shares (say get 25% share of accumulated credits from MWC prior years to their entry
3. Waive entry fee
These moves would essentially eliminate the financial penalty for moving, or at least reduce the upfront cost.

If Gonzaga stays in the WCC and do so after they negotiate hard ball with the MWC for concessions, that would likely burn that bridge for a number of years.

This isn't going to drag on. It's either going to happen or not happen. I'd be shocked if this wasn't resolved long before May 1st.

So Wichita State wired $2.5 million to the AAC to join and lost about $1 million in revenue from the MVC. That is the kind of move you make if you really want to join a conference. The AAC did not make any concessions to Wichita State.

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wic...58984.html

If the MWC is making concessions to Gonzaga, then it looks like the MWC needs Gonzaga more than Gonzaga needs them. It makes the MWC look desperate.

Bad comparison.
1. Wichita St wanted out of the MVC badly. They approached the MWC who wasn’t interested due to geography, and the AAC who was a perfect fit.
2. Gonzaga is not desperate like Wichita St was.
3. Gonzaga has been a basketball power for 20 years. Wichita St struggled for a long while and then got a great coach. Gonzaga is a bigger get than Wichita St.
03-28-2018 03:32 PM
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