(03-28-2018 12:52 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 09:40 AM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  Good hire by Louisville. I cannot, however, remember another instance where a sitting head coach left his alma mater after just earning a No. 1 seed in the tournament. I know even with the recent scandals Louisville has money, tradition and resources that is only surpassed by the Dukes, UNCs, UCLAs, Kentuckys and handful of bluebloods, but this has to sting to have another Big East coach bolt for the ACC. I'm also wondering in Jeff Capel isn't kicking himself for not waiting to see if he could've landed the Xavier job instead of taking on the herculean rebuilding at Pitt.

His wife grew up in Louisville and graduated from Louisville Holly Cross High School. And $4 million a year for 7 years over $2.5 million a year was to good an opportunity to turn down.

And if Xavier wanted to match this offer, they would have.

This isn't a knock on the Big East at all. X's last three head coaches all left for top-25 jobs. There is only one program in the BE that could be considered a top 25 job today: Villanova. Those don't open every day, and they're difficult to turn down. It's not like these coaches are jumping at the first opportunity they have to get out of town. It simply says certain schools have the brand power to go out and get whomever they want to be their coach, regardless of conference.

Kansas' last hire was from the Big 10. UNC from the Big XII. Kentucky from C-USA, UCLA from the Mountain West. It just happens that Louisville's is from the Big East.

Lets not kid ourselves. Coaches have egos. If Louisville basketball wasn't the dumpster fire it is right now, would Chris Mack have taken the job? Hard to say. Maybe the guy sees returning our program to prominence as challenge. He said yesterday that it was too good an opportunity to pass up. This from a guy that said no to Ohio State and Indiana. Honestly I can't tell you why he took the Louisville job, only he knows the real reason, I'm glad he did though.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see it as a negative on The Big East or Xavier that he left to come to Louisville. Louisville was looking for a coach and Coach Mack said yes, that's about it.

Good luck to Xavier next season.
CJ

(03-28-2018 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:19 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Lol... yeah, football money... and Adidas money... and hooker money... and soaking the city for a free downtown arena money... and...

money none the less. Big East programs are at a big disadvantage(as is AAC etc.- although for whatever reason no AAC coaches been poached yet in basketball) compared to P5 schools.

Everyone talks about how the Big East gets as much money for basketball than P5 schools do- but that doesn't take into account the other money, which can also be used for basketball. Louisville will be taking home about 30 million plus this year from conference, compared to maybe 10 million for Big East teams. Pretty huge difference there. And that gap is just going to widen when the ACC network takes over. Same with Big Ten- Ohio St took home about 32.4 million last year, and the new tv deals weren't even included in that- should be up to around 43 million this year, and just go up from there. That's a real difference.

There is a very important point that you are overlooking: what type of schools are hiring Big East coaches? In the past ten years, you have Ohio State (Holtmann, who also looked at McDermott), Louisville (Mack), Virginia Tech (Buzz), and Indiana (Crean). Are the P5 schools? Yes. Are they bottom of the barrel P5 schools? No. They are schools that a blue-blood/upper level P5 athletic programs. To insinuate that the P5 can pick off any coach from the Big East is an over-generalization based on the data. It's not like they're leaving their jobs for Nebraska, Washington State, Ole Miss, Penn State or any other men's basketball programs that lack success, prestige or history just for money.

(03-28-2018 01:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:19 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Lol... yeah, football money... and Adidas money... and hooker money... and soaking the city for a free downtown arena money... and...

money none the less. Big East programs are at a big disadvantage(as is AAC etc.- although for whatever reason no AAC coaches been poached yet in basketball) compared to P5 schools.

Everyone talks about how the Big East gets as much money for basketball than P5 schools do- but that doesn't take into account the other money, which can also be used for basketball. Louisville will be taking home about 30 million plus this year from conference, compared to maybe 10 million for Big East teams. Pretty huge difference there. And that gap is just going to widen when the ACC network takes over. Same with Big Ten- Ohio St took home about 32.4 million last year, and the new tv deals weren't even included in that- should be up to around 43 million this year, and just go up from there. That's a real difference.

There is a very important point that you are overlooking: what type of schools are hiring Big East coaches? In the past ten years, you have Ohio State (Holtmann, who also looked at McDermott), Louisville (Mack), Virginia Tech (Buzz), and Indiana (Crean). Are the P5 schools? Yes. Are they bottom of the barrel P5 schools? No. They are schools that a blue-blood/upper level P5 athletic programs. To insinuate that the P5 can pick off any coach from the Big East is an over-generalization based on the data. It's not like they're leaving their jobs for Nebraska, Washington State, Ole Miss, Penn State or any other men's basketball programs that lack success, prestige or history just for money.

Virginia Tech hardly a upper level basketball program. All of 8 NCAA bids all time before Buzz got there. To act otherwise is pretty crazy.

And the money gap is just going to get more and more. Big Ten schools will be getting 4-5 times more money yearly from the Big Ten than Big East schools will be getting from the Big East. ACC is like 3-4 times more money.

(03-28-2018 01:19 PM)ShockerDR Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 12:52 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 09:40 AM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  Good hire by Louisville. I cannot, however, remember another instance where a sitting head coach left his alma mater after just earning a No. 1 seed in the tournament. I know even with the recent scandals Louisville has money, tradition and resources that is only surpassed by the Dukes, UNCs, UCLAs, Kentuckys and handful of bluebloods, but this has to sting to have another Big East coach bolt for the ACC. I'm also wondering in Jeff Capel isn't kicking himself for not waiting to see if he could've landed the Xavier job instead of taking on the herculean rebuilding at Pitt.

His wife grew up in Louisville and graduated from Louisville Holly Cross High School. And $4 million a year for 7 years over $2.5 million a year was to good an opportunity to turn down.

And if Xavier wanted to match this offer, they would have.

This isn't a knock on the Big East at all. X's last three head coaches all left for top-25 jobs. There is only one program in the BE that could be considered a top 25 job today: Villanova. Those don't open every day, and they're difficult to turn down. It's not like these coaches are jumping at the first opportunity they have to get out of town. It simply says certain schools have the brand power to go out and get whomever they want to be their coach, regardless of conference.

Kansas' last hire was from the Big 10. UNC from the Big XII. Kentucky from C-USA, UCLA from the Mountain West. It just happens that Louisville's is from the Big East.

They could not afford to match.

Yes XU is in the Big East, but this school is not rolling in the dough like Villanova or Georgetown. It is a very small school (less than 4500 undergrads) with a $150M endowment. They don't have many famous, wealthy or well-connected alums. They have a dedicated fan base that fills their arena, but they really do not have of a following outside their own walls. Prior to the invite to the Big East five years ago and playing in the A-10 for a decade before that, they spent 30 years before that playing in the various conferences that now constitutes the Horizon League (Midwestern City Conference, Midwestern Collegiate Conference).

(03-28-2018 02:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 01:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:19 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Lol... yeah, football money... and Adidas money... and hooker money... and soaking the city for a free downtown arena money... and...

money none the less. Big East programs are at a big disadvantage(as is AAC etc.- although for whatever reason no AAC coaches been poached yet in basketball) compared to P5 schools.

Everyone talks about how the Big East gets as much money for basketball than P5 schools do- but that doesn't take into account the other money, which can also be used for basketball. Louisville will be taking home about 30 million plus this year from conference, compared to maybe 10 million for Big East teams. Pretty huge difference there. And that gap is just going to widen when the ACC network takes over. Same with Big Ten- Ohio St took home about 32.4 million last year, and the new tv deals weren't even included in that- should be up to around 43 million this year, and just go up from there. That's a real difference.

There is a very important point that you are overlooking: what type of schools are hiring Big East coaches? In the past ten years, you have Ohio State (Holtmann, who also looked at McDermott), Louisville (Mack), Virginia Tech (Buzz), and Indiana (Crean). Are the P5 schools? Yes. Are they bottom of the barrel P5 schools? No. They are schools that a blue-blood/upper level P5 athletic programs. To insinuate that the P5 can pick off any coach from the Big East is an over-generalization based on the data. It's not like they're leaving their jobs for Nebraska, Washington State, Ole Miss, Penn State or any other men's basketball programs that lack success, prestige or history just for money.

Virginia Tech hardly a upper level basketball program. All of 8 NCAA bids all time before Buzz got there. To act otherwise is pretty crazy.

And the money gap is just going to get more and more. Big Ten schools will be getting 4-5 times more money yearly from the Big Ten than Big East schools will be getting from the Big East. ACC is like 3-4 times more money.

Buzz Williams leaving Marquette for Virginia Tech was incredibly unique in every sense of the word. There were many national reporters that were shocked and surprised by it, but - if you know Buzz - it made perfect sense. I would argue that this case should not be used as "evidence" as a poor basketball program like VT could grab any Big East coach it wanted. There was so much going on behind the scenes that led to that move.

While Buzz did publicly say he thought the new Big East was not going to be the old Big East (and remaining in the ACC with Boeheim, Pitino, Brey and Dixon was a plus), he also proclaimed that the P5 would breakaway and form their own tournament. Additionally, many other factors led to him leaving Marquette (both President and AD - who gave him carte blanche - left; he had a very poor season the year after Elite Eight appearance; VT and Whit Babcock (whom he knew through Mick Cronin) gave him huge sweet-heart deal, and increased the basketball budget and resources significantly.

I root for Buzz 100% at VT. However, he did not leave because VT offered him more money; he actually took a pay cut. He was making over $3 million per year at MU. (I believe he is now making as much via incentives at VT, but am not positive).

(03-28-2018 10:36 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Any argument about how this puts down the Big East, or its schools, or says this is about football are just flawed and not looking at the history/success of a program like Xavier, or accepting of the fact that many Big East programs have done this repeatedly already before.

I've been a Big East supporter since 1979, so nobody wishes the conference well more than I do.

But, the bottom line here is that we're not going to be seeing many top-notch B1G and ACC coaches leaving for the Big East, while we will see the reverse. There's maybe 2-3 Big East programs that can afford the $5m + top coaches are making now, and that number is just going to go up. Already, four schools are paying $7m a year for their hoops coach.

It's a permanent disadvantage that didn't exist in the 1980s even up until the late 2000s.

Heck, the whole reason the Big East was stripped of some of its best hoops programs - Louisville, Syracuse, West Virginia, and Pitt - was because of the boom in football dollars that started roughly 10 years ago. UConn is no longer in the Big East for the same reason, though in their case it's striving for football dollars.

Football $$$ has done big damage to the Big East, even as the conference has continued to thrive.

(03-28-2018 04:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:36 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Any argument about how this puts down the Big East, or its schools, or says this is about football are just flawed and not looking at the history/success of a program like Xavier, or accepting of the fact that many Big East programs have done this repeatedly already before.

I've been a Big East supporter since 1979, so nobody wishes the conference well more than I do.

But, the bottom line here is that we're not going to be seeing many top-notch B1G and ACC coaches leaving for the Big East, while we will see the reverse. There's maybe 2-3 Big East programs that can afford the $5m + top coaches are making now, and that number is just going to go up. Already, four schools are paying $7m a year for their hoops coach.

It's a permanent disadvantage that didn't exist in the 1980s even up until the late 2000s.

Heck, the whole reason the Big East was stripped of some of its best hoops programs - Louisville, Syracuse, West Virginia, and Pitt - was because of the boom in football dollars that started roughly 10 years ago.

Football $$$ has done big damage to the Big East, even as the conference has continued to thrive.

Exactly. And that gap is going to continue to grow- making it that much more difficult. Whereas before the gap between Big East basketball schools and P5 schools was maybe 2-3 million, that's now 20-30 million, and growing rapidly..

I'm sure that the $ was a factor but he could've got that from Indiana, Ohio State or maybe even Georgetown. Maybe even from another offer that we haven't heard about. It was obviously more than the $. He has been a fan of Louisville since the Crum days, he isn't a stranger of the city of Louisville & you might of heard that his wife is from Louisville. While at Xavier, they lived in northern Kentucky. Don't you think that it would be nice for his family to be close to family while he is away working? A happy wife equals a happy life they say. There has been 2 coaches at the UofL, both HofF, since 1971. Has there been a more stable program? There are so many factors here that make this a unique situation so I don't think that it says anything negative about Xavier or the BE. Just the opposite, it took a unique opportunity for this to happen. Mack turning down all these other offers speaks highly of Xavier & the BE. There isn't a reason to believe that Mack wouldn't have retired from Xavier if not for this unique situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It TOTALLY sucks for Xavier fans. Louisville football fans can completely empathize. Losing coach, after coach, to bigger, wealthier programs. There's no denying the sting.

And after hearing from Coach Mack today, I can really see why the sting hurts as much as it does. He's well spoken, but in a straight shooter-common man, kinda way. And you can hear the passion he has for his alma mater in his voice. That's clear. So I know this probably hurts a little extra.


But Xavier has lost really good coaches before (and some could probably say better coaches), and they have continued to grow and thrive. I would expect that to continue. At some point, it's institutional will ..... Xavier appears to have that will, and is very well positioned to continue that growth.


I wasn't on the Mack train early on ... but he impressed me today. And I am looking forward to watching him work in the future.

Best of luck to Xavier. I don't expect much drop off, if any, going forward.

(03-28-2018 04:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:36 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Any argument about how this puts down the Big East, or its schools, or says this is about football are just flawed and not looking at the history/success of a program like Xavier, or accepting of the fact that many Big East programs have done this repeatedly already before.

I've been a Big East supporter since 1979, so nobody wishes the conference well more than I do.

But, the bottom line here is that we're not going to be seeing many top-notch B1G and ACC coaches leaving for the Big East, while we will see the reverse. There's maybe 2-3 Big East programs that can afford the $5m + top coaches are making now, and that number is just going to go up. Already, four schools are paying $7m a year for their hoops coach.

It's a permanent disadvantage that didn't exist in the 1980s even up until the late 2000s.

Heck, the whole reason the Big East was stripped of some of its best hoops programs - Louisville, Syracuse, West Virginia, and Pitt - was because of the boom in football dollars that started roughly 10 years ago.

Football $$$ has done big damage to the Big East, even as the conference has continued to thrive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidching/2018/03/07/ncaa-tournaments-biggest-spenders-usually-rank-among-its-biggest-winners-too/#1b0caba77a22

There's no large divide between the P5 and the Big East when it comes to basketball spending.

Except there is. Last year the average Big East tourney team spent 8,429,757. Last year the average P5 team that got to the sweet 16 spent 10,080,415. That is a divide of about 20%.

Also, P5 teams can account for things differently- like spending more on sports medicine etc- that doesn't get allocated just to one sport.

Finally, the money gap is now only starting to show up. Big Ten revenues will be going up by about 25% this year. And basketball is a sport that a small increase in resources can go a really long way.

(03-28-2018 11:42 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Except there is. Last year the average Big East tourney team spent 8,429,757. Last year the average P5 team that got to the sweet 16 spent 10,080,415. That is a divide of about 20%.

Also, P5 teams can account for things differently- like spending more on sports medicine etc- that doesn't get allocated just to one sport.

Finally, the money gap is now only starting to show up. Big Ten revenues will be going up by about 25% this year. And basketball is a sport that a small increase in resources can go a really long way.

To be clear, you are taking the average of the Big East Tournament teams - which included Providence, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier, Creighton, Seton Hall and Butler - and comparing them only against: UCLA, Kentucky, UNC, Oregon, Michigan, Kansas, Purdue, Arizona and West Virginia.

Boy, what a way to absolutely stack the deck in favor of your flawed argument. Each of the programs are blue blood/top-level P5 basketball programs - and spent more money than their counterparts even before the big boom of TV contracts within the past decade. You're absolutely cherry-picking here.

Until we see the day where schools like Penn State, Nebraska, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Boston College, Clemson, Washington State, Oregon State and other men's basketball programs that are in the lower tier of the P5 can poach Big East coaches annually, this argument has absolutely zero basis on fact. Mack (Louisville), Holtmann (Ohio State), and Crean (IU) are got hired by big-time athletic programs (not just average P5 schools) with strong basketball tradition, top-notch facilities and a national college basketball brand.

Many Big East schools could poach a lower-tiered P5 coach, due to salary offerings, but don't because that's not how the membership values and/or hires coaches. They want coaches familiar with their respective programs, they know how to win there and don't need a brand name in order to continue winning. With the exception to Wojo, each and every new coach hired has had direct ties to the school, whether as a player or assistant coach. The model seems to be working pretty well thus far.

lets see....
teams making the sweet 16 that you totally IGNORED were Florida, Baylor, South Carolina, and Wisconsin. Yeah, I know small details. OOPS.

(03-29-2018 09:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  lets see....
teams making the sweet 16 that you totally IGNORED were Florida, Baylor, South Carolina, and Wisconsin. Yeah, I know small details. OOPS.

My mistake. Thank you for including a program that has won two national championships in the past 12 years, another program that has gone to the Final Four twice in the past 4 years (and national championship runner up), and another program that has been to eight tournaments in the past ten years in your incredibly selected comparison. You have only assisted in furthering my point.

(03-29-2018 09:29 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(03-29-2018 09:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  lets see....
teams making the sweet 16 that you totally IGNORED were Florida, Baylor, South Carolina, and Wisconsin. Yeah, I know small details. OOPS.

My mistake. Thank you for including a program that has won two national championships in the past 12 years, another program that has gone to the Final Four twice in the past 4 years (and national championship runner up), and another program that has been to eight tournaments in the past ten years in your incredibly selected comparison. You have only assisted in furthering my point.

So you act like it's only the top 20% of the P5. It's NOT. And you know it.

And the money problem is just going to get worse. Big Ten is going to be making a ton more, and the ACC is going to be getting a lot of money from the ACC network. And the SEC has finally gotten serious about basketball. But is the Big East revenue going to go up? Realistically, probably not. Xavier wanted to keep Mack, but could only get up to 3 million to try to keep him. That's barely in the top 20 now.

Stever confuses "what he wishes would happen" with "reality".
He also confuses "possibilities" with "probabilities".
"Heart" vs "Head".
These are very common mistakes people make.
The problem is that he's done this over the course of 7 years and in 40,000 posts.

(03-29-2018 10:00 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Stever confuses "what he wishes would happen" with "reality".
He also confuses "possibilities" with "probabilities".

My takeaway from the Stever vs GW11 debate is:

1) GW11 has shown that the Big East isn't currently suffering a hoops money-gap with the P5.

Which by itself is worrisome, as I would prefer to explain the Marquette coach leaving for VT and the Xavier coach leaving for Louisville with money than anything else.

2) Stever is probably correct that this gap is going to open, and grow.

I don't see how it can't, given that P5 resources keep growing while Big East resources don't seem to be. They have football, we don't. It's the same issue we've grappled with since 1991, and we've never had a good solution for it. Probably because there is no good solution.

Wish it weren't so, but ...

(03-28-2018 02:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 01:51 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-28-2018 10:19 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Lol... yeah, football money... and Adidas money... and hooker money... and soaking the city for a free downtown arena money... and...

money none the less. Big East programs are at a big disadvantage(as is AAC etc.- although for whatever reason no AAC coaches been poached yet in basketball) compared to P5 schools.

Everyone talks about how the Big East gets as much money for basketball than P5 schools do- but that doesn't take into account the other money, which can also be used for basketball. Louisville will be taking home about 30 million plus this year from conference, compared to maybe 10 million for Big East teams. Pretty huge difference there. And that gap is just going to widen when the ACC network takes over. Same with Big Ten- Ohio St took home about 32.4 million last year, and the new tv deals weren't even included in that- should be up to around 43 million this year, and just go up from there. That's a real difference.

There is a very important point that you are overlooking: what type of schools are hiring Big East coaches? In the past ten years, you have Ohio State (Holtmann, who also looked at McDermott), Louisville (Mack), Virginia Tech (Buzz), and Indiana (Crean). Are the P5 schools? Yes. Are they bottom of the barrel P5 schools? No. They are schools that a blue-blood/upper level P5 athletic programs. To insinuate that the P5 can pick off any coach from the Big East is an over-generalization based on the data. It's not like they're leaving their jobs for Nebraska, Washington State, Ole Miss, Penn State or any other men's basketball programs that lack success, prestige or history just for money.

Virginia Tech hardly a upper level basketball program. All of 8 NCAA bids all time before Buzz got there. To act otherwise is pretty crazy.

And the money gap is just going to get more and more. Big Ten schools will be getting 4-5 times more money yearly from the Big Ten than Big East schools will be getting from the Big East. ACC is like 3-4 times more money.

Exactly. Virginia Tech?.... what?

If P5 money is so great, and drives all, why did Buzz Williams actually take a pay cut when he left Marquette for Virginia Tech? As a I have said before, Buzz leaving Marquette was incredibly unique for a variety of reasons I will not go into. However, he did not leave Marquette because he was offered more money. This is factually incorrect.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/co...b665e5e20a