(04-22-2018 08:27 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  He had an older brother I never saw much who fought in the Pacific, preventing him from continuing his baseball career in the Yankees farm system.

Weird. My uncle Frank served in Army Intelligence during the Aleutians campaign, stopping his (very early, and probably not very promising - his words) time in the Yankees farm system!

(04-22-2018 08:27 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  As abhorrent as the Stalin regime was, I tend to be in Owl's camp with regards to how FDR handled Yalta. In general I disagree with him on principle for some of the ways he handled the war, but he more or less got the job done and helped set us up on a course for victory. God knows what the world would be like if we had a toothless president like Buchanan in 1940.

One thing I will never forgive him for however is his bungling of the economy, which imo froze the US in an isolationist mood until Pearl Harbor and prevented any chance intervening until the world was in crisis. Had we been fully recovered a year or so before Blitzkrieg there would've still been of opposition to any involvement in Europe, but with a healthy economy you never know if FDR would've been able to convince Congress to step in before millions had to die on the battlefield or in the Holocaust...

I don't have very many military stories within my family. My grandpa on my dad's side was 4F due to a heart condition, my grandma says he always felt bad about not being able to serve (though you never know if I'd even be around today if he fought). My grandpa on my other side suffered a permanent hip injury as a boy so he spent all of the Korean War doing office work for the Army in California, later saying it was the most boring time of his life. He had an older brother I never saw much who fought in the Pacific, preventing him from continuing his baseball career in the Yankees farm system.

It is odd that with economy recovering that they cut spending and even more strangely increased the reserve requirements for banks crippling access to capital for businesses.

Sent the economy backwards and it took a massive federal hiring program via the draft and high enlistment as well as the federal government basically buying almost all industrial output to get things really rolling.

I just have my doubts that a prosperous US would be any more inclined to join the fight.

(04-23-2018 10:42 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-22-2018 08:27 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  As abhorrent as the Stalin regime was, I tend to be in Owl's camp with regards to how FDR handled Yalta. In general I disagree with him on principle for some of the ways he handled the war, but he more or less got the job done and helped set us up on a course for victory. God knows what the world would be like if we had a toothless president like Buchanan in 1940.
One thing I will never forgive him for however is his bungling of the economy, which imo froze the US in an isolationist mood until Pearl Harbor and prevented any chance intervening until the world was in crisis. Had we been fully recovered a year or so before Blitzkrieg there would've still been of opposition to any involvement in Europe, but with a healthy economy you never know if FDR would've been able to convince Congress to step in before millions had to die on the battlefield or in the Holocaust...
I don't have very many military stories within my family. My grandpa on my dad's side was 4F due to a heart condition, my grandma says he always felt bad about not being able to serve (though you never know if I'd even be around today if he fought). My grandpa on my other side suffered a permanent hip injury as a boy so he spent all of the Korean War doing office work for the Army in California, later saying it was the most boring time of his life. He had an older brother I never saw much who fought in the Pacific, preventing him from continuing his baseball career in the Yankees farm system.

It is odd that with economy recovering that they cut spending and even more strangely increased the reserve requirements for banks crippling access to capital for businesses.
Sent the economy backwards and it took a massive federal hiring program via the draft and high enlistment as well as the federal government basically buying almost all industrial output to get things really rolling.
I just have my doubts that a prosperous US would be any more inclined to join the fight.

But here's what might--and I use "might" purposely--have happened. Had we not gone protectionist with Smoot-Hawley in 1930, there is a strong possibility that the crash would have bottomed out and recovered much faster. If that happens here, then maybe it happens everywhere. In particular, it could very well have not only happened, but also been accompanied by increased international trade. And if that happens in Germany, then maybe Hitler never comes to power, or is never able to usurp the powers that he did. There are a lot of "if's" there, and I concede that freely. But it's well within the range of possible outcomes.

(04-23-2018 11:00 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But here's what might--and I use "might" purposely--have happened. Had we not gone protectionist with Smoot-Hawley in 1930, there is a strong possibility that the crash would have bottomed out and recovered much faster. If that happens here, then maybe it happens everywhere. In particular, it could very well have not only happened, but also been accompanied by increased international trade. And if that happens in Germany, then maybe Hitler never comes to power, or is never able to usurp the powers that he did. There are a lot of "if's" there, and I concede that freely. But it's well within the range of possible outcomes.

Lot of ifs but...

(04-23-2018 11:00 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 10:42 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-22-2018 08:27 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  As abhorrent as the Stalin regime was, I tend to be in Owl's camp with regards to how FDR handled Yalta. In general I disagree with him on principle for some of the ways he handled the war, but he more or less got the job done and helped set us up on a course for victory. God knows what the world would be like if we had a toothless president like Buchanan in 1940.
One thing I will never forgive him for however is his bungling of the economy, which imo froze the US in an isolationist mood until Pearl Harbor and prevented any chance intervening until the world was in crisis. Had we been fully recovered a year or so before Blitzkrieg there would've still been of opposition to any involvement in Europe, but with a healthy economy you never know if FDR would've been able to convince Congress to step in before millions had to die on the battlefield or in the Holocaust...
I don't have very many military stories within my family. My grandpa on my dad's side was 4F due to a heart condition, my grandma says he always felt bad about not being able to serve (though you never know if I'd even be around today if he fought). My grandpa on my other side suffered a permanent hip injury as a boy so he spent all of the Korean War doing office work for the Army in California, later saying it was the most boring time of his life. He had an older brother I never saw much who fought in the Pacific, preventing him from continuing his baseball career in the Yankees farm system.

It is odd that with economy recovering that they cut spending and even more strangely increased the reserve requirements for banks crippling access to capital for businesses.
Sent the economy backwards and it took a massive federal hiring program via the draft and high enlistment as well as the federal government basically buying almost all industrial output to get things really rolling.
I just have my doubts that a prosperous US would be any more inclined to join the fight.

But here's what might--and I use "might" purposely--have happened. Had we not gone protectionist with Smoot-Hawley in 1930, there is a strong possibility that the crash would have bottomed out and recovered much faster. If that happens here, then maybe it happens everywhere. In particular, it could very well have not only happened, but also been accompanied by increased international trade. And if that happens in Germany, then maybe Hitler never comes to power, or is never able to usurp the powers that he did. There are a lot of "if's" there, and I concede that freely. But it's well within the range of possible outcomes.

Plausible, but imo Versailles set up WWII from the moment the ink was dry. Perhaps the economies would've recovered and the world would've avoided another war with Germany being able to build themselves out in the long run. But the underlying national socialist sentiment that gripped Germany, Italy, and such took hold for a reason, and I think that the recovery wouldn't have come in time for it to stem the tide. But you fully acknowledge the unlikelihood as well.

To Ark's point regarding a prosperous US not wanting to join, that's probably the most likely outcome in that scenario. That being said, enough Americans during that era were so closely removed from Europe that perhaps a sense of morality towards the old country would've made the political climate more suitable for involvement before things came to a true breaking point. Mostly it's just me wishing there's a scenario where the US prevents the Holocaust from occurring...

(04-23-2018 07:54 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 11:00 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 10:42 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-22-2018 08:27 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  As abhorrent as the Stalin regime was, I tend to be in Owl's camp with regards to how FDR handled Yalta. In general I disagree with him on principle for some of the ways he handled the war, but he more or less got the job done and helped set us up on a course for victory. God knows what the world would be like if we had a toothless president like Buchanan in 1940.
One thing I will never forgive him for however is his bungling of the economy, which imo froze the US in an isolationist mood until Pearl Harbor and prevented any chance intervening until the world was in crisis. Had we been fully recovered a year or so before Blitzkrieg there would've still been of opposition to any involvement in Europe, but with a healthy economy you never know if FDR would've been able to convince Congress to step in before millions had to die on the battlefield or in the Holocaust...
I don't have very many military stories within my family. My grandpa on my dad's side was 4F due to a heart condition, my grandma says he always felt bad about not being able to serve (though you never know if I'd even be around today if he fought). My grandpa on my other side suffered a permanent hip injury as a boy so he spent all of the Korean War doing office work for the Army in California, later saying it was the most boring time of his life. He had an older brother I never saw much who fought in the Pacific, preventing him from continuing his baseball career in the Yankees farm system.

It is odd that with economy recovering that they cut spending and even more strangely increased the reserve requirements for banks crippling access to capital for businesses.
Sent the economy backwards and it took a massive federal hiring program via the draft and high enlistment as well as the federal government basically buying almost all industrial output to get things really rolling.
I just have my doubts that a prosperous US would be any more inclined to join the fight.

But here's what might--and I use "might" purposely--have happened. Had we not gone protectionist with Smoot-Hawley in 1930, there is a strong possibility that the crash would have bottomed out and recovered much faster. If that happens here, then maybe it happens everywhere. In particular, it could very well have not only happened, but also been accompanied by increased international trade. And if that happens in Germany, then maybe Hitler never comes to power, or is never able to usurp the powers that he did. There are a lot of "if's" there, and I concede that freely. But it's well within the range of possible outcomes.

Plausible, but imo Versailles set up WWII from the moment the ink was dry. Perhaps the economies would've recovered and the world would've avoided another war with Germany being able to build themselves out in the long run. But the underlying national socialist sentiment that gripped Germany, Italy, and such took hold for a reason, and I think that the recovery wouldn't have come in time for it to stem the tide. But you fully acknowledge the unlikelihood as well.

To Ark's point regarding a prosperous US not wanting to join, that's probably the most likely outcome in that scenario. That being said, enough Americans during that era were so closely removed from Europe that perhaps a sense of morality towards the old country would've made the political climate more suitable for involvement before things came to a true breaking point. Mostly it's just me wishing there's a scenario where the US prevents the Holocaust from occurring...

The French desire for revenge brought the Nazis to Paris.

Woodrow Wilson was ignored. We set lighter terms after WWII.