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Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 11:35 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:40 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:29 AM)stever20 Wrote:  from the article-
According to Wilner’s projections for 2018, distributions of more than $50 million would give the Big Ten a sizable revenue advantage over schools from the SEC (approximately $43 million each), the Big 12 ($36.5 million), the Pac-12 ($32 million) and the ACC ($28 million).

Can't imagine FSU being happy about making half what Northwestern does.....

Like I said, should be some "interesting" negotiations in the next few years....

This is old news, as we've already been made aware of the Michigan letter projecting $50m + payout next year. Nothing new in this article.

Of course it does remain important news, because if those projections do come true, everything the author says about revenue gaps will be correct, which could lead to instability within the P5 from schools in under-paid conferences.

There are a couple of things to note. The SEC could realize some more money in 2024, when its deal with CBS expires. That could bring in some new dollars, though not huge dollars. Also, the Comcast- NYC stuff being talked about here could impact the B1G negatively.

But, that said, what appears most likely is that, thanks to Delany's foresight, the B1G will be making a good $10m more than the SEC. To me, that's the comparison that irks the most. You can't really blame Swofford for the ACC not making as much, because the ACC just isn't as inherently valuable as the B1G. But, the B1G should not be making any more than the SEC does. If it does, that's due to bad SEC leadership.

Call me crazy, but I could see even the SEC be threatened - if the B1G is making $10m + a year more than the SEC, the B1G could be tempting to a Kentucky.

The figures for the Big 10 in 2018 are correct. Where Wilner missed the boat, conveniently for his tease line of swamping the SEC in revenue, is in two places.

1. 2017 the SEC didn't receive Sugar Bowl money due to the CFP rotation. Last year's earnings would normally have been around 43.7 million instead of 40.9 million. The SEC contract accrues at a rate of about 2 million a year. Hence we appeared stagnant because of the bowl money. Next year 2018 the SEC will be earning closer to 46 million and that is without factoring in the Altice deal and the spread of our carriage.

2. Wilner touts the Big 10's ability to renew a contract in 2023. But Wilner fails to mention that the most undervalued contract still in existence, the contract between CBS Sports and the SEC for the SEC's T1 rights is up in 2024. So it is the SEC that will be stepping up to the plate a year after the new Big 10 numbers are known.

Agree with point #1: All of the conferences have these big $40m deals with the Sugar and Rose Bowls (and the ACC, at $27.5m, for the Orange Bowl), which are missed when they are playoff games, and as you say that comes to almost $3m per school, so when talking about year to year, you have to adjust for that.

Also, I agree about CBS, that will be an important re-up in 2024 for the SEC that often gets overlooked. CBS doesn't have a lot of SEC games but it has the very cream, and that will likely be more valuable than it was when the deal was signed in 2009, though we have to remember that thanks to the SECN, the terms of the deal aren't as favorable to CBS as they were in 2009, which is we even though the SEC added TAMU and Mizzou, the dollars stayed the same when they made the 2013 adjustment for the SECN. The per-team money from CBS actually went down, because CBS continued paying $55m to the SEC even though two new schools were added.

That said, I disagree with your point about SEC teams still making $15m more in overall athletic revenue, because that is "home grown" money that the school generates on its own, it's not directly conference-related, and the issue here is the desirability of being in a conference.

E.g., if the ACC payout is $30m and the B1G payout is $60m, it won't make FSU feel any better that its overall athletic revenues are $110m and Purdue's are $100m, because FSU will be thinking, "if we were in the B1G, we'd be making $140m".

The only way that logic doesn't hold is if you believe that joining another conference will cause home-grown revenue to drop. E.g., let's say somehow the Big 12 suddenly was getting a $60m payout compared to $45m for the SEC, and so LSU was thinking about leaving the SEC for the Big 12. But, if market research showed that LSU "home grown" revenue would drop by $20m, because fans have no interest in attending games vs Texas Tech and Iowa State compared to Alabama and Florida, well then they would quickly lose interest in leaving.

But that's very rarely the case.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 12:01 PM by quo vadis.)
04-19-2018 11:55 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 11:44 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:23 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 10:43 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 10:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 10:33 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  So Big 10 schools will have 30 solid gold toilets instead of 25. That has to be hard to stomach. So sad for the victims.

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If you think the money doesn't matter you are truly foolish. Better pay for coaches/assistants in the big sports(and smaller sports)- along with other things.
Diminishing marginal productivity.

Generally speaking, universities have an insatiable desire for more money. Harvard has $37 Billion in its endowment, and yet employs teams of experts whose job is to grow that money.

Theoretically, of course, there will be diminishing returns. Give Harvard $100 Billion and for a while at least, they'd struggle to figure out what to do with it.

For a while.

But in the range of money we are talking about here with regards to conference payouts, there is zero evidence that any school is anywhere near that inflection point, and your school would be the first to jump to high heaven if it suddenly found it it was getting $50m a year from its conference.
An extra $250,000 would be important for my school. ULM would be pretty excited about $100,000 I suspect.

But the Big 10 getting a few million more than the SEC in their pile isn't really that much of a real impact other than chest-puffing material and coach pay inflation.

The gap between the bottom of FBS and the top is what is unbalanced. The gap between #1 and #2 isn't really that impactful.

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unless by them doing that gets everyone upped increasing the difference.
04-19-2018 11:57 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
actually looking at the Fiscal years...

FY 17- would be the 2016-17 school year. Both the Rose and Sugar were played with Big Ten/SEC in them.
FY 18- would be the 2017-18 school year. So neither the Rose or Sugar would be with the Big Ten/SEC in them.
04-19-2018 12:00 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
Now the one thing that will change for FY 19- the 2018-19 school year- Both Big Ten and SEC will see a bump from Rose/Sugar. BUT- the Big Ten won't have a team in the Orange Bowl with 27.5 million dollars. So that's pretty big there- about 2 million per school.
04-19-2018 12:04 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
It will help B1G cover for the massive drop in ticket sales that are coming.

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04-19-2018 12:14 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
Qou you stated the following to which I will respond:

the dollars stayed the same when they made the 2013 adjustment for the SECN. The per-team money from CBS actually went down, because CBS continued paying $55m to the SEC even though two new schools were added.

That said, I disagree with your point about SEC teams still making $15m more in overall athletic revenue, because that is "home grown" money that the school generates on its own, it's not directly conference-related, and the issue here is the desirability of being in a conference.


About the first bolded part, it isn't just likely that the T1 contract will get more money, it is a certainty they will get a lot more money. CBS enjoys their ratings and the other games on ESPN in that time slot haven't hurt CBS rankings, because CBS gets first pick.

The CBS revenue didn't increase in 2012 because they bought a fixed amount of games. The amount of games did not change so there was no reason for that figure to change. I don't think the SEC was hurt by that either as the SECN in Texas and Missouri netted us a potential 34 million more viewers to reach.

For the second bolded part, I said the difference would be 10 million. And yes we are talking conference strength here. What part of TV revenue doesn't apply to overall conference strength? None. What part of ticket revenue and donations doesn't apply to overall conference strength? None!

Your argument is straining at a gnat to swallow the proverbial camel. Who gives a flying flip about whether L.S.U. is worth more or less in the Big 12? All moves are judged on marketability and sports fit. Since the SEC is already present along and inside the Big 12 borders if they take from the Big 12 the fit will be good enough. And while donations and ticket sales don't always translate, sometimes they do. The Aggie boost in revenue is testimony to how well that synergy can work and the Missouri situation tells you how poorly it can translate. Ditto for the Big 10 where Penn State has done well, but Nebraska has not, and the jury is out on Maryland. And Quo Rutgers is more woeful for the Big 10 than Missouri is for the SEC. But then there wasn't the investment in sports at Rutgers where other budgetary issues have been prevalent. In time that could change. But the quality of opponents, fan interest, etc. is a question at both Nebraska and Missouri.

So since all conferences deal with these issues the measure of dollar to dollar remains quite valid. It's not our fault if Rusty doesn't cough up as much in donations, or charge as much for tickets as Bubba. At the end of the day the dollars are still 10 million more even after the Big 10's TV money increase and those dollars spend exactly the same way, although due to the cost of living they go a lot farther in most of the SEC where the tax base is lower and homes are cheaper.

You can't have it both ways just to be contentious. And Wilner has always had a bias because he knows his audience. He is about as objective as Finebaum and Tramel, which isn't very objective at all.

At the end of every business day do you think there is any corporation in America that isn't concerned with the Gross and NET revenue? They may all finagle the numbers for tax purposes and budgetary reasons but the bottom line is the bottom line and the bottom line here is +10 million (not 15) after the difference in TV revenue is factored in.

Conference strength is measured in attendance + 7000 per game advantage to the SEC.
Conference strength is measured in TV audience, slight advantage to the SEC where the % of total possible homes that actually watch helps us to overcome sheer numbers in the North.
Conference TV revenue is also a measure of strength but it flip flops with contract renewals. Right now it's +2.5 million for the SEC. After next year it will be +5 million for the Big 10.
And finally conference strength is measured in total dollars earned where the SEC enjoys its largest margin to the plus side.
And it's measured in terms of what the conference generates in revenue for others within its footprint (WSJ estimated values) where again the SEC is significantly ahead.

Delany has done well with what he has had to work with. But having said that, it hasn't been enough.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 12:55 PM by JRsec.)
04-19-2018 12:42 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
Meh. Simple solution. If the revenue differences directly affect on field performance and thus create tiers within the P5 due to TV contracts - stop watching the product if your school/rooting interest is the one that gets screwed.

It's a sad day when part of the sports conversations in college sports focus on TV contracts and conference networks. I get that it's off season for the revenue sports, but... just sad to see this component is now part of off season discussions.

Yep...this is what higher education is all about... LOL!
04-19-2018 01:02 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 01:02 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Meh. Simple solution. If the revenue differences directly affect on field performance and thus create tiers within the P5 due to TV contracts - stop watching the product if your school/rooting interest is the one that gets screwed.

It's a sad day when part of the sports conversations in college sports focus on TV contracts and conference networks. I get that it's off season for the revenue sports, but... just sad to see this component is now part of off season discussions.

Yep...this is what higher education is all about... LOL!

I stopped watching everyone but Cincinnati a few years back. Haven’t regretted it for a minute.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 01:10 PM by CliftonAve.)
04-19-2018 01:06 PM
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cubucks Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 01:02 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Meh. Simple solution. If the revenue differences directly affect on field performance and thus create tiers within the P5 due to TV contracts - stop watching the product if your school/rooting interest is the one that gets screwed.

It's a sad day when part of the sports conversations in college sports focus on TV contracts and conference networks. I get that it's off season for the revenue sports, but... just sad to see this component is now part of off season discussions.

Yep...this is what higher education is all about... LOL!
Agree

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04-19-2018 01:08 PM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
I agree, Deleney does not know how to play this game
04-19-2018 01:14 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 01:02 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Meh. Simple solution. If the revenue differences directly affect on field performance and thus create tiers within the P5 due to TV contracts - stop watching the product if your school/rooting interest is the one that gets screwed.

It's a sad day when part of the sports conversations in college sports focus on TV contracts and conference networks. I get that it's off season for the revenue sports, but... just sad to see this component is now part of off season discussions.

Yep...this is what higher education is all about... LOL!

It's what college sports is about there Miko. If it was about higher education the traffic would be miniscule and the discourse less terse. But we are dealing with the general population here. You know the population that watches E.Tonight more often than the evening news. That population that thinks in tweets and emojis and when it encounters a well argued position types in response TLDR and relies upon Facebook for political referrals.

So Miko once again you fall into the gross minority of people who can retreat to their Blanton's and ponder just how and why in this the best of all possible worlds, as Voltaire would say, that "Ignorance and Superstition once again wins out over Skill and Cunning".

Solve that and then you will find validity in this world.
04-19-2018 01:15 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 01:15 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 01:02 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Meh. Simple solution. If the revenue differences directly affect on field performance and thus create tiers within the P5 due to TV contracts - stop watching the product if your school/rooting interest is the one that gets screwed.

It's a sad day when part of the sports conversations in college sports focus on TV contracts and conference networks. I get that it's off season for the revenue sports, but... just sad to see this component is now part of off season discussions.

Yep...this is what higher education is all about... LOL!

It's what college sports is about there Miko. If it was about higher education the traffic would be miniscule and the discourse less terse. But we are dealing with the general population here. You know the population that watches E.Tonight more often than the evening news. That population that thinks in tweets and emojis and when it encounters a well argued position types in response TLDR and relies upon Facebook for political referrals.

So Miko once again you fall into the gross minority of people who can retreat to their Blanton's and ponder just how and why in this the best of all possible worlds, as Voltaire would say, that "Ignorance and Superstition once again wins out over Skill and Cunning".

Solve that and then you will find validity in this world.

If you take the alumni out of the equation, I can see 2 camps of fans: 1) Fans who have a regional attachment to schools and equate winning to "home town pride" ala HS Football fans and 2) Fans who want the pro sports experience. I wish we were back in the days of item 1; however, you are right and the vast majority want 'NFL Lite'. The latter don't like to admit their attraction to the "pro" game - pretending that they are fans in camp 1.

Now I know why you are such a fan of Blanton's... 04-cheers
04-19-2018 01:28 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 12:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  You can't have it both ways just to be contentious.

No intent to be contentious, and not trying to have it both ways.

My point was just that conference payouts and other revenues are different, because everyone in the conference gets the same TV/conference revenue, whereas home grown revenue can vary dramatically. That's why Alabama has a $160m athletic revenue and Vandy has a $70m budget. So obviously something non-conference related is going on there.

If FSU is making $110m athletic revenue and Purdue $100m, IMO that will not mollify FSU if Purdue is getting $30m more from the B1G than FSU is from the ACC. It will make FSU want to join the B1G.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 02:16 PM by quo vadis.)
04-19-2018 02:02 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 11:44 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  But the Big 10 getting a few million more than the SEC in their pile isn't really that much of a real impact other than chest-puffing material and coach pay inflation.

The gap between the bottom of FBS and the top is what is unbalanced. The gap between #1 and #2 isn't really that impactful.

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WEll, it matters if mid-level Big 10 schools like Wisconsin and MIchigan State now have the money to make Nick Saban or other top SEC coaches an offer they have to think about.

(04-19-2018 02:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 12:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  You can't have it both ways just to be contentious.

No intent to be contentious, and not trying to have it both ways.

My point was just that TV revenues and other revenues are different, because everyone in the conference gets the same TV revenue, whereas home grown revenue can vary dramatically. That's why Alabama has a $160m athletic budget and Vandy has a $70m budget. So obviously something non-conference related is going on there.

IMO, if FSU is making $110m athletic revenue and Purdue $100m, IMO that will not mollify FSU if Purdue is getting $30m more from the B1G than FSU is from the ACC. It will make FSU want to join the B1G.

But it doesn't make the B1G want to take on FSU though.

Rutgers and Maryland enabled the B1G to land the Great White Whale of eastern seaboard basic-cable subscription revenues. Anyone the B1G thinks about adding now basically has to be a $100M addition. Who's out there that adds $50M a year in TV value, subscriber revenue or whatever else?
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 02:26 PM by johnbragg.)
04-19-2018 02:20 PM
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RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
Va % NC
04-19-2018 02:29 PM
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RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 01:06 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 01:02 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Meh. Simple solution. If the revenue differences directly affect on field performance and thus create tiers within the P5 due to TV contracts - stop watching the product if your school/rooting interest is the one that gets screwed.

It's a sad day when part of the sports conversations in college sports focus on TV contracts and conference networks. I get that it's off season for the revenue sports, but... just sad to see this component is now part of off season discussions.

Yep...this is what higher education is all about... LOL!

I stopped watching everyone but Cincinnati a few years back. Haven’t regretted it for a minute.

I never did watch many non-ND games from 1964 until today. Haven't regretted it for a minute.
04-19-2018 02:34 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 02:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:44 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  But the Big 10 getting a few million more than the SEC in their pile isn't really that much of a real impact other than chest-puffing material and coach pay inflation.

The gap between the bottom of FBS and the top is what is unbalanced. The gap between #1 and #2 isn't really that impactful.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

WEll, it matters if mid-level Big 10 schools like Wisconsin and MIchigan State now have the money to make Nick Saban or other top SEC coaches an offer they have to think about.

(04-19-2018 02:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 12:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  You can't have it both ways just to be contentious.

No intent to be contentious, and not trying to have it both ways.

My point was just that TV revenues and other revenues are different, because everyone in the conference gets the same TV revenue, whereas home grown revenue can vary dramatically. That's why Alabama has a $160m athletic budget and Vandy has a $70m budget. So obviously something non-conference related is going on there.

IMO, if FSU is making $110m athletic revenue and Purdue $100m, IMO that will not mollify FSU if Purdue is getting $30m more from the B1G than FSU is from the ACC. It will make FSU want to join the B1G.

But it doesn't make the B1G want to take on FSU though.

Rutgers and Maryland enabled the B1G to land the Great White Whale of eastern seaboard basic-cable subscription revenues. Anyone the B1G thinks about adding now basically has to be a $100M addition. Who's out there that adds $50M a year in TV value, subscriber revenue or whatever else?

Without pulling a bell cow like Alabama from the SEC, that would be Oklahoma and Texas, the two bell cows (uh, bell cow and wagon) from the Big 12. I guess that makes the prairie schooner an Ox cart doesn't it!
04-19-2018 03:13 PM
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RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 12:14 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  It will help B1G cover for the massive drop in ticket sales that are coming.

07-coffee3

If there is one, it won't be unique to the Big 10
04-19-2018 03:37 PM
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RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 08:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Maryland has to be laughing their asses off at this.

TV money is only part of the deal. Every other Big Ten member is going to get the same amount of that, and Maryland is never going to be better than 5th in its own division in revenue or spending.

Michigan State -- who is 4th in revenue in that division -- reports about $55 million in annual revenue from ticket sales and donations. Maryland reports about $30 million. Maryland will never close that gap to Michigan State, let alone the much larger gaps between themselves and Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State in revenue.

Even Maryland's currrent level of ticket sales plus donations might drop just from being in such a hopeless situation in football. How many Maryland supporters want to donate more, or renew season tickets, after watching their team lose 66-3 at home to Penn State? (Yes, that's the actual score of last season's game.) The athletic department is going to have to rely on an Indiana-like model of making basketball their revenue source while just taking their lumps in football.

But if their supporters don't care much about football, maybe it's not a big deal to them.
04-19-2018 03:51 PM
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RE: Big Ten's Rights Deal Threatens To Widen Financial Gap Between Even The Biggest Confe
(04-19-2018 03:51 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Maryland has to be laughing their asses off at this.

TV money is only part of the deal. Every other Big Ten member is going to get the same amount of that, and Maryland is never going to be better than 5th in its own division in revenue or spending.

Michigan State -- who is 4th in revenue in that division -- reports about $55 million in annual revenue from ticket sales and donations. Maryland reports about $30 million. Maryland will never close that gap to Michigan State, let alone the much larger gaps between themselves and Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State in revenue.

Even Maryland's currrent level of ticket sales plus donations might drop just from being in such a hopeless situation in football. How many Maryland supporters want to donate more, or renew season tickets, after watching their team lose 66-3 at home to Penn State? (Yes, that's the actual score of last season's game.) The athletic department is going to have to rely on an Indiana-like model of making basketball their revenue source while just taking their lumps in football.

But if their supporters don't care much about football, maybe it's not a big deal to them.

I’m sure most Maryland, Indiana and Rutgers fans know their football programs will not amount much in the East. The best they can hope is for a 6, 7 or 8 win season with the once in a decade magical season. When you have three blue programs in your division plus Sparty, those should be the realistic expectations year in, year out.
04-19-2018 04:15 PM
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