(05-18-2018 04:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  It's still effectively pointless.

That and I haven't even touched how much the NCAA ignores other violators, which makes it that much worse. You don't know who else won fairly contested games and titles historically and in my opinion they have missed a ton, intentionally or not.

If it's pointless, it seems like it's the best possible outcome for Louisville, no? Seems weird it would bother you.

Anyways, I agree with you that college sports (the revenue ones, at least) are basically a sham designed to leverage people's connection to State U or alma mater into making an otherwise unsalable minor league product massively profitable. However, the idea that because we can't disprove theoretical dishonesty by other teams means we should allow for any proven dishonesty just doesn't resonate with me.

What? We have solid evidence that many of other teams and champions are tainted, such as 1990 UNLV (there's a picture of some of their most well known players in the hottub with soneone involved in organized crime). These are college athletes, are you gonna tell me no big time team in college basketball ever had a drug-sex party with paid hookers paid for by boosters? You're a naive shill if you say yes.

This is proof as to why the NCAA needs to go away for a stronger organization or just independent conferences and schools.

(05-18-2018 03:27 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 02:14 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The problem is insulting the intelligence of everyone involved. We all saw what happened and unless the games were rigged, then it's silly to vacate.

No one is gonna brag or promote a tainted title, so an asterisk does just fine.

You're badly misunderstanding what a vacated title is. It's not the NCAA yelling loudly at everyone to ignore their lying eyes and insisting the game never happened despite what people are pretty sure they saw. What it is is the NCAA determining that an entrant assembled their team illegally and thus withdrawing their endorsement of the games involved.

Young men from the University of Louisville won a bunch of basketball games during the fall and spring semesters of the 2012-2013 academic year, nobody disputes that. However, because they were assembled outside of the established rules for NCAA competition, they don't get to claim NCAA-bestowed honors. It's not complicated.

1) I'm really not surprised to see a UConn fan boo-hooing over this.

2) I DO get it. I DO understand what it does and does not mean. MY issue with it is that the NCAA itself had zero qualms claiming Louisville won the '13 Championship in their promotional efforts leading up to this year's title game, but LOUISVILLE who put in the work cannot claim the same. That is a hypocritical double standard, and that is what's most unjust in my opinion. The NCAA says that we cannot profit from the '13 season or use it for promotional purposes, while they turn around and do just that utilizing our likeness and branding. Forgive my french, but that's bull****.

(05-18-2018 12:21 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  It's beyond stupid. An asterisk gets the point across without insulting our intelligence. I wouldn't even want to brag about an accomplishment with an asterisk unless the charge was flimsy and contestable/debatable.

Titles matter. None of the other penalties do. Should have taken 3 away from UNC.

Now I'm with you on wins. Its pretty stupid.

Always remember. It's not some drone working in Indianapolis who dreams these things up, it is the schools.

Schools don't like anything that they think gives someone an advantage (unless of course it is something the school can afford and others cannot).

Other schools did not like recruits being shown Championship banners and conference trophies and bowl trophies, and national champion trophies for teams that got there by breaking the rules.

They don't like seeing a recruit posing in front a trophy earned by a team that was found guilty of breaking the rules.

They don't like seeing a school touting 10 conference titles when two were teams found guilty of breaking the rules.

The rule will exist unless the membership finds another way of achieving the mission of preventing their competitors from celebrating "ill-gotten" gains.

(05-18-2018 05:59 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  What? We have solid evidence that many of other teams and champions are tainted, such as 1990 UNLV (there's a picture of some of their most well known players in the hottub with soneone involved in organized crime). These are college athletes, are you gonna tell me no big time team in college basketball ever had a drug-sex party with paid hookers paid for by boosters? You're a naive shill if you say yes.

This is proof as to why the NCAA needs to go away for a stronger organization or just independent conferences and schools.

Oh, there's absolutely schools that have gotten away with violations. College sports are as dirty as they come and it's all a symptom of the colleges turning athletics into a for-profit system that doesn't allow the actual labor to be fairly compensated for their work. However, there are rules and Louisville got caught breaking them (and then got caught negotiating a cash payment for a recruit after that, but that's actually not related to the vacated title). I'm actually with you that the schools should just drop the sham and pay the players, but so long as there are rules on the book you can't just ignore them because "other schools probably didn't get caught, so why enforce anything?"

(05-18-2018 06:46 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  2) I DO get it. I DO understand what it does and does not mean. MY issue with it is that the NCAA itself had zero qualms claiming Louisville won the '13 Championship in their promotional efforts leading up to this year's title game, but LOUISVILLE who put in the work cannot claim the same. That is a hypocritical double standard, and that is what's most unjust in my opinion. The NCAA says that we cannot profit from the '13 season or use it for promotional purposes, while they turn around and do just that utilizing our likeness and branding. Forgive my french, but that's bull****.

Oh, yea, the NCAA using footage from that season in promotional stuff is weird at best. My guess is that they have stock montages prepared that they just add to every year and someone didn't bother to go back and edit out the 2013 Louisville footage that they used. Whatever the reason though, I agree that the NCAA should stop trying to sell people with Louisville. Not debating that.

(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

I have not read the rest of the thread, but does the penalty take away the moneys earned? If not, then why can't that be done. If it effects the conference, then money should be reimbursed by the school, by contract or by other legal means.

(05-19-2018 03:29 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 06:46 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  2) I DO get it. I DO understand what it does and does not mean. MY issue with it is that the NCAA itself had zero qualms claiming Louisville won the '13 Championship in their promotional efforts leading up to this year's title game, but LOUISVILLE who put in the work cannot claim the same. That is a hypocritical double standard, and that is what's most unjust in my opinion. The NCAA says that we cannot profit from the '13 season or use it for promotional purposes, while they turn around and do just that utilizing our likeness and branding. Forgive my french, but that's bull****.

Oh, yea, the NCAA using footage from that season in promotional stuff is weird at best. My guess is that they have stock montages prepared that they just add to every year and someone didn't bother to go back and edit out the 2013 Louisville footage that they used. Whatever the reason though, I agree that the NCAA should stop trying to sell people with Louisville. Not debating that.

That's my only complaint with the whole thing. I mean, I don't LIKE that we were caught cheating, but rules are rules and I accept that. But if the NCAA isn't going to permit Louisville from profiting from it, then they themselves shouldn't be permitted to do so as well. You'll forgive me if the notion of "stock montage footage" for a billion dollar entity is laughable, at best, to me. They make that **** up every year, and it was damn sure more than some intern forgetting to edit footage somewhere that lead to it. C'mon, you know full damn well that ain't what happened. So yeah, that's my only gripe.

(05-18-2018 09:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 12:21 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  It's beyond stupid. An asterisk gets the point across without insulting our intelligence. I wouldn't even want to brag about an accomplishment with an asterisk unless the charge was flimsy and contestable/debatable.

Titles matter. None of the other penalties do. Should have taken 3 away from UNC.

Now I'm with you on wins. Its pretty stupid.

UNC football should have their wins back.

(05-19-2018 03:43 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

I have not read the rest of the thread, but does the penalty take away the moneys earned? If not, then why can't that be done. If it effects the conference, then money should be reimbursed by the school, by contract or by other legal means.

I don't know how they do it in every case. But when Memphis vacated the Final Four (Part II) the NCAA had CUSA explain their revenue sharing procedure and deducted from the payout what would have been the Tigers share. So the rest of CUSA got paid as if Memphis had made the Final Four and Memphis got took a share from CUSA as if their appearance never happened.

(05-19-2018 06:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 09:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 12:21 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  It's beyond stupid. An asterisk gets the point across without insulting our intelligence. I wouldn't even want to brag about an accomplishment with an asterisk unless the charge was flimsy and contestable/debatable.

Titles matter. None of the other penalties do. Should have taken 3 away from UNC.

Now I'm with you on wins. Its pretty stupid.

UNC football should have their wins back.

Yes. But those banners should be taken down from Dean Smith Center.

(05-19-2018 06:31 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 03:29 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 06:46 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  2) I DO get it. I DO understand what it does and does not mean. MY issue with it is that the NCAA itself had zero qualms claiming Louisville won the '13 Championship in their promotional efforts leading up to this year's title game, but LOUISVILLE who put in the work cannot claim the same. That is a hypocritical double standard, and that is what's most unjust in my opinion. The NCAA says that we cannot profit from the '13 season or use it for promotional purposes, while they turn around and do just that utilizing our likeness and branding. Forgive my french, but that's bull****.

Oh, yea, the NCAA using footage from that season in promotional stuff is weird at best. My guess is that they have stock montages prepared that they just add to every year and someone didn't bother to go back and edit out the 2013 Louisville footage that they used. Whatever the reason though, I agree that the NCAA should stop trying to sell people with Louisville. Not debating that.

That's my only complaint with the whole thing. I mean, I don't LIKE that we were caught cheating, but rules are rules and I accept that. But if the NCAA isn't going to permit Louisville from profiting from it, then they themselves shouldn't be permitted to do so as well. You'll forgive me if the notion of "stock montage footage" for a billion dollar entity is laughable, at best, to me. They make that **** up every year, and it was damn sure more than some intern forgetting to edit footage somewhere that lead to it. C'mon, you know full damn well that ain't what happened. So yeah, that's my only gripe.

Sure. Agreed that it's weird they're still publicizing that season.

I've worked in the business, I've been involved with enforcement.

Based on my observations and my conversations with those I was working with.

Men's basketball. Rotten to the core. Schools that are terrible in basketball find themselves hiring random people to low paying jobs (seriously, we are talking jobs that pay barely above minimum and maybe $21,000 tops) because that person is "the handler" for one or more kids. Then there are "consultants" who "help" players, the ballsy ones make kids pay them and will get some money from coaches. If there were any sport the NCAA should just say "**** it" and drop it is men's basketball.

Football. Men's basketball is like the worst third world country where you have to bribe someone to do anything, football is more like Louisiana or Chicago where there is plenty of dirty dealing but you don't get stopped on the sidewalk to show your papers and then pay a bribe to get them back. Out of 11,000 players, the recruitment of about 3500 had actions that would be arguable major violations.

Track. The recruiting usually isn't the issue. What happens to keep players eligible is where you get the issues.

Women's hoops. Some dirty recruiting, not much. But another of the hot spots for academic fraud.

Baseball. Recruiting is generally pretty clean. You do have some pro scouts who will see a kid they think has potential and needs more development than a summer of rookie ball before being cut is going to give them. Some scouts steer kids, some because they think the coaches at SE Tech can really help, some because the coaches can find a little bit of cash for them. Generally a group that doesn't struggle as much academically.

Volleyball. There are some club coaches who will try to get some juice to steer players but generally clean and usually pretty decent academic group.

Tennis, golf, swimming and diving. Usually really good students and clean recruiting.

Seriously though, football isn't as dirty as the casual fan believes (though not clean) and men's basketball is dirtier than the casual fan believes.

(05-19-2018 07:21 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 03:43 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

I have not read the rest of the thread, but does the penalty take away the moneys earned? If not, then why can't that be done. If it effects the conference, then money should be reimbursed by the school, by contract or by other legal means.

I don't know how they do it in every case. But when Memphis vacated the Final Four (Part II) the NCAA had CUSA explain their revenue sharing procedure and deducted from the payout what would have been the Tigers share. So the rest of CUSA got paid as if Memphis had made the Final Four and Memphis got took a share from CUSA as if their appearance never happened.

Thanks.

It would probably be more of a punishment if the total share for the conference and the conference has an agreement that the school makes up for the other university shares.

Pie in the sky though.

(05-20-2018 05:43 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 07:21 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 03:43 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 06:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The "it is silly to vacate a title because we all saw them win on the court" argument is nonsensical and easily demolished: Imagine you are playing poker and someone wins the biggest pot of the night with 3 aces, then as they are raking the pot in an ace falls out of their sleave, if the other players demand they surrender the pot, what if the cheater says "you can't rewrite history! We all saw me win the pot, too late!"

He'd get his head smashed.

So people who say vacating is silly are really saying they disagree that the cheating merits losing the title.

I have not read the rest of the thread, but does the penalty take away the moneys earned? If not, then why can't that be done. If it effects the conference, then money should be reimbursed by the school, by contract or by other legal means.

I don't know how they do it in every case. But when Memphis vacated the Final Four (Part II) the NCAA had CUSA explain their revenue sharing procedure and deducted from the payout what would have been the Tigers share. So the rest of CUSA got paid as if Memphis had made the Final Four and Memphis got took a share from CUSA as if their appearance never happened.

Thanks.

It would probably be more of a punishment if the total share for the conference and the conference has an agreement that the school makes up for the other university shares.

Pie in the sky though.

That's one of those there is no great solution things. I know at one time the NCAA considered taking away 100% of what a vacated team earned but since there has usually been one or two payments made on the ill-gotten units schools that didn't get in trouble would have to pay back the NCAA and no one thought that was fair and then someone pointed out that it was a weird result if schools got to keep payments for three years in case discovered later and other schools got to only keep one year if discovered earlier so they settled on the offending school paying back and the conference mates getting paid as if the team hadn't gotten in trouble. There was also some concern that a conference member might not report someone in the league if it meant that they were going to take a big financial hit.

(05-19-2018 07:52 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 06:31 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  

(05-19-2018 03:29 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 06:46 PM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  2) I DO get it. I DO understand what it does and does not mean. MY issue with it is that the NCAA itself had zero qualms claiming Louisville won the '13 Championship in their promotional efforts leading up to this year's title game, but LOUISVILLE who put in the work cannot claim the same. That is a hypocritical double standard, and that is what's most unjust in my opinion. The NCAA says that we cannot profit from the '13 season or use it for promotional purposes, while they turn around and do just that utilizing our likeness and branding. Forgive my french, but that's bull****.

Oh, yea, the NCAA using footage from that season in promotional stuff is weird at best. My guess is that they have stock montages prepared that they just add to every year and someone didn't bother to go back and edit out the 2013 Louisville footage that they used. Whatever the reason though, I agree that the NCAA should stop trying to sell people with Louisville. Not debating that.

That's my only complaint with the whole thing. I mean, I don't LIKE that we were caught cheating, but rules are rules and I accept that. But if the NCAA isn't going to permit Louisville from profiting from it, then they themselves shouldn't be permitted to do so as well. You'll forgive me if the notion of "stock montage footage" for a billion dollar entity is laughable, at best, to me. They make that **** up every year, and it was damn sure more than some intern forgetting to edit footage somewhere that lead to it. C'mon, you know full damn well that ain't what happened. So yeah, that's my only gripe.

Sure. Agreed that it's weird they're still publicizing that season.

It's definitely weird and hypocritical of the NCAA and while the University of Louisville likely WON'T do it, I feel that if the NCAA were challenged in court based on that alone, no court in America would side with the NCAA because essentially the NCAA has ruled that Louisville cannot utilize it's own likeness from that season for gain, but the NCAA can. So either the NCAA would have to stop using the '13 season in any future promotional endeavours which could be seen as damaging to the NCAA, or reinstate Louisville's ability to call themselves the '13 Champions for their own gain. Hard to say which option the NCAA would choose, to be honest, but that smells to me like how a court would rule. "Either knock it off or let them too" sort of deal. Courts don't typically like double standards.

Vacating anything that has already been played is utter nonsense, a slippery slope into annals of the absurd. The selective enforcement and admonishment from the NCAA is further evidence.

(05-21-2018 10:11 AM)PDNJ Wrote:  Vacating anything that has already been played is utter nonsense, a slippery slope into annals of the absurd.

So ... if a team is lousy at concealing their cheating and gets caught before the win, it's OK to disqualify them. But if they are clever at concealing their cheating such that it doesn't get discovered until after they 'win', they should just ... get away with it?

Just want to be sure I understand.

It's not about getting caught, it's about the games being played already. As long as they were fairly contested and refereed as far as we know, what good is it to pretend it didn't happen?

As I noted, no one would publicize and brag about a tainted title.

(05-22-2018 12:39 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  It's not about getting caught, it's about the games being played already. As long as they were fairly contested and refereed as far as we know, what good is it to pretend it didn't happen?

As I noted, no one would publicize and brag about a tainted title.

If a team used playerd who should have been ineligible, the game wasn't fairly contested.

This is pretty easy: if the infraction had been discovered before the games were played, and the players or coaches involved would have been ineligible or the team ineligible to play for the title, then a vacate is appropriate.