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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #61
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-29-2018 08:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Cannot see ODU or Marshall joining the MAC. That is a step down, even from C-USA.

Really?

The MAC has a better TV deal, lower travel costs, better academics and is more highly rated in FB/BB since the realignment.
05-29-2018 09:32 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-29-2018 09:32 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 08:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Cannot see ODU or Marshall joining the MAC. That is a step down, even from C-USA.

Really?

The MAC has a better TV deal, lower travel costs, better academics and is more highly rated in FB/BB since the realignment.

MAC TV deal is not better (MAC schools pay production costs, not ESPN). Check out these C-USA distributions, plus Rights

ODU...........$5,155,793
WKU...........$5,369,197
UTSA..........$5,527,674
FAU............$5,713,263
MTSU..........$5,736,546
UNT............$6,101,609
Marshall......$6,319,055
UTEP ..........$6,962,670

They are all higher than WMich's $4,480,330 which was the highest in the MAC and way more than Ball State $2,772,860. C-USA is better Basketball, better programs. There is LESS money in the MAC, not more. UMass felt gate at MBB would suffer far more than the modest difference with the A10, so they left the MAC. When you dig into the actual reported numbers the MAC falls well short of C-USA

Schools may not be happy in C-USA, but that only means they prefer to be in the MWC (UTEP, Rice) or AAC (most of the rest).

JMU is the only realistic addition.
05-29-2018 10:36 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #63
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-28-2018 09:39 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-28-2018 03:33 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I honestly don’t see the MAC, in it’s current form, as enticing to any school.

The MAC has resilience. Some have overtures to leave but would rather stay when the conference might actually be better with the departures. Any other G5 conference if it was to lose its top 3 programs it would be a total disaster. In the MAC it opens up possibilities.

Which schools?
05-29-2018 10:47 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #64
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-29-2018 07:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 06:50 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 06:24 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 05:10 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the MAC wants to consider expanding, they need to consult with the Big Ten. The MAC's role in the FBS is to provide wins for the P5 - primarily the B1G because of their geography. So the question should be who do B1G teams want to play OOC.

Unlike most of the members of CUSA and Sun Belt, who only recently moved up from FCS status, the MAC has had 40 years to raise their level of play to FBS norms ( they fought relegation to FCS and won) and hasn't been able to do so. I don't see any reason to assume that will change anytime soon.

What is the FBS normal level of competition?

What I am speaking about here are the levels of play that existed among the much smaller number (90 or so) of schools that were part of the FBS at the time of the split. The MAC was below that level when they were relegated, and many of its members were technically below the original minimum requirements like attendance.

There is now a clear and significant divide between the P5 and the G5, though the AAC is closer to the P5 than any of the other G5 leagues. The MAC, CUSA and Sun Belt are all about equal, and the MWC is, at least lately, not much better. And the FCS MVFC is as strong as all three of those.

The MAC is closer in strength to the top FCS conferences than they are to the bottom of the P5 and even to the tweener AAC. By definition, the moveup of all those former FCS programs has lowered the "norm" or statistical average since the initial split. And as more schools move up, the lower that new norm will be.

Much of the Sun Belt are among the most recent moveups, and maybe some of them will increase in strength over time to the point where they will climb the realignment ladder by virtue of the advantages FBS teams have over FCS teams. But over 40 years, that improvement has not happened in the MAC.

Your assessment is based on computer ratings which are an imperfect way to compare levels. Levels here I am talking about P5 to G5 and G5 to FCS.

The MAC has been as dominant over FCS programs as the power conferences in recent seasons. Consider every MAC school is playing a FCS program every year. Then you factor in the facilities. The worst MAC progams have facilities equal to the top of FCS. To compare the MVC, Colonial, Big Sky to the MAC as a whole which is what you are saying isn't much of a comparison.

Kent State probably has the worst facilities in the MAC at 25,000 seats and an IPF. Its light years from what Indiana State in the MVC or New Hampshire of the CAA have facility wise.

The MAC plays 85 scholarship football and walk on programs run as high as 110 to 120 at some places. The MAC has produced the number 1 overall NFL draft pick and over 100 former players are on NFL rosters. I'm not seeing the equality with FCS.

The MAC has sent all but 3 of its programs (EMU, Akron, Buffalo) into the Top 25 rankings over the last 15 years. That is probably better than the MWC in that timeframe.

I don't want to make more of this than there is. My larger point is that the MAC is what it is, and what it has always been. It's a nice conference, with a compact footprint and strong affinity among its members. It's never going to get rich, or be able to consistently compete with the big boys in either football or hoops. In that way, they are like CUSA and the Sun Belt.

None of those conferences are going to get any stronger by moving their members from one to the other, or by bringing up more FCS teams. So what would expansion accomplish? I think the MAC is comfortable in its own skin, and that's a good thing.
05-30-2018 07:53 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #65
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
CUSA requires each of its members to pay dues each year.

They pay into their bowl games.

The MAC doesn't require dues and uses its revenue to cover bowl expenses for all members.
05-30-2018 09:42 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #66
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 07:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 07:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 06:50 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 06:24 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 05:10 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the MAC wants to consider expanding, they need to consult with the Big Ten. The MAC's role in the FBS is to provide wins for the P5 - primarily the B1G because of their geography. So the question should be who do B1G teams want to play OOC.

Unlike most of the members of CUSA and Sun Belt, who only recently moved up from FCS status, the MAC has had 40 years to raise their level of play to FBS norms ( they fought relegation to FCS and won) and hasn't been able to do so. I don't see any reason to assume that will change anytime soon.

What is the FBS normal level of competition?

What I am speaking about here are the levels of play that existed among the much smaller number (90 or so) of schools that were part of the FBS at the time of the split. The MAC was below that level when they were relegated, and many of its members were technically below the original minimum requirements like attendance.

There is now a clear and significant divide between the P5 and the G5, though the AAC is closer to the P5 than any of the other G5 leagues. The MAC, CUSA and Sun Belt are all about equal, and the MWC is, at least lately, not much better. And the FCS MVFC is as strong as all three of those.

The MAC is closer in strength to the top FCS conferences than they are to the bottom of the P5 and even to the tweener AAC. By definition, the moveup of all those former FCS programs has lowered the "norm" or statistical average since the initial split. And as more schools move up, the lower that new norm will be.

Much of the Sun Belt are among the most recent moveups, and maybe some of them will increase in strength over time to the point where they will climb the realignment ladder by virtue of the advantages FBS teams have over FCS teams. But over 40 years, that improvement has not happened in the MAC.

Your assessment is based on computer ratings which are an imperfect way to compare levels. Levels here I am talking about P5 to G5 and G5 to FCS.

The MAC has been as dominant over FCS programs as the power conferences in recent seasons. Consider every MAC school is playing a FCS program every year. Then you factor in the facilities. The worst MAC progams have facilities equal to the top of FCS. To compare the MVC, Colonial, Big Sky to the MAC as a whole which is what you are saying isn't much of a comparison.

Kent State probably has the worst facilities in the MAC at 25,000 seats and an IPF. Its light years from what Indiana State in the MVC or New Hampshire of the CAA have facility wise.

The MAC plays 85 scholarship football and walk on programs run as high as 110 to 120 at some places. The MAC has produced the number 1 overall NFL draft pick and over 100 former players are on NFL rosters. I'm not seeing the equality with FCS.

The MAC has sent all but 3 of its programs (EMU, Akron, Buffalo) into the Top 25 rankings over the last 15 years. That is probably better than the MWC in that timeframe.

I don't want to make more of this than there is. My larger point is that the MAC is what it is, and what it has always been. It's a nice conference, with a compact footprint and strong affinity among its members. It's never going to get rich, or be able to consistently compete with the big boys in either football or hoops. In that way, they are like CUSA and the Sun Belt.

None of those conferences are going to get any stronger by moving their members from one to the other, or by bringing up more FCS teams. So what would expansion accomplish? I think the MAC is comfortable in its own skin, and that's a good thing.

Quite to the contrary. The MAC has a goal to regularly challenge for the CFP slot.

The commissioner has said if a group of schools could help the MAC to that end they will be considered.
05-30-2018 09:45 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-29-2018 10:36 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 09:32 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 08:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Cannot see ODU or Marshall joining the MAC. That is a step down, even from C-USA.

Really?

The MAC has a better TV deal, lower travel costs, better academics and is more highly rated in FB/BB since the realignment.

MAC TV deal is not better (MAC schools pay production costs, not ESPN). Check out these C-USA distributions, plus Rights

ODU...........$5,155,793
WKU...........$5,369,197
UTSA..........$5,527,674
FAU............$5,713,263
MTSU..........$5,736,546
UNT............$6,101,609
Marshall......$6,319,055
UTEP ..........$6,962,670

They are all higher than WMich's $4,480,330 which was the highest in the MAC and way more than Ball State $2,772,860. C-USA is better Basketball, better programs. There is LESS money in the MAC, not more. UMass felt gate at MBB would suffer far more than the modest difference with the A10, so they left the MAC. When you dig into the actual reported numbers the MAC falls well short of C-USA

Schools may not be happy in C-USA, but that only means they prefer to be in the MWC (UTEP, Rice) or AAC (most of the rest).

JMU is the only realistic addition.

The MAC isn't a step down from CUSA in football. It used to be, but isn't now. In basketball, CUSA's RPI has been below the MAC for some time now, sometimes by quite a bit.
05-30-2018 10:05 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #68
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 09:45 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-30-2018 07:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 07:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 06:50 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-29-2018 06:24 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  What is the FBS normal level of competition?

What I am speaking about here are the levels of play that existed among the much smaller number (90 or so) of schools that were part of the FBS at the time of the split. The MAC was below that level when they were relegated, and many of its members were technically below the original minimum requirements like attendance.

There is now a clear and significant divide between the P5 and the G5, though the AAC is closer to the P5 than any of the other G5 leagues. The MAC, CUSA and Sun Belt are all about equal, and the MWC is, at least lately, not much better. And the FCS MVFC is as strong as all three of those.

The MAC is closer in strength to the top FCS conferences than they are to the bottom of the P5 and even to the tweener AAC. By definition, the moveup of all those former FCS programs has lowered the "norm" or statistical average since the initial split. And as more schools move up, the lower that new norm will be.

Much of the Sun Belt are among the most recent moveups, and maybe some of them will increase in strength over time to the point where they will climb the realignment ladder by virtue of the advantages FBS teams have over FCS teams. But over 40 years, that improvement has not happened in the MAC.

Your assessment is based on computer ratings which are an imperfect way to compare levels. Levels here I am talking about P5 to G5 and G5 to FCS.

The MAC has been as dominant over FCS programs as the power conferences in recent seasons. Consider every MAC school is playing a FCS program every year. Then you factor in the facilities. The worst MAC progams have facilities equal to the top of FCS. To compare the MVC, Colonial, Big Sky to the MAC as a whole which is what you are saying isn't much of a comparison.

Kent State probably has the worst facilities in the MAC at 25,000 seats and an IPF. Its light years from what Indiana State in the MVC or New Hampshire of the CAA have facility wise.

The MAC plays 85 scholarship football and walk on programs run as high as 110 to 120 at some places. The MAC has produced the number 1 overall NFL draft pick and over 100 former players are on NFL rosters. I'm not seeing the equality with FCS.

The MAC has sent all but 3 of its programs (EMU, Akron, Buffalo) into the Top 25 rankings over the last 15 years. That is probably better than the MWC in that timeframe.

I don't want to make more of this than there is. My larger point is that the MAC is what it is, and what it has always been. It's a nice conference, with a compact footprint and strong affinity among its members. It's never going to get rich, or be able to consistently compete with the big boys in either football or hoops. In that way, they are like CUSA and the Sun Belt.

None of those conferences are going to get any stronger by moving their members from one to the other, or by bringing up more FCS teams. So what would expansion accomplish? I think the MAC is comfortable in its own skin, and that's a good thing.

Quite to the contrary. The MAC has a goal to regularly challenge for the CFP slot.

The commissioner has said if a group of schools could help the MAC to that end they will be considered.

That isn't contrary to anything I've said. Having a goal to be better than you have been in the past is something I would expect from any school or conference. Over the past 10 years, the MAC has had the highest ranked team (AP poll including "others receiving votes") among the G5 once (2016 WMU).

G5 Conferences' # of Top 25 rankings:

2008-12
AAC....6
MWC...8
MAC....2
CUSA...1

2013-2017
AAC....8
MWC...3
MAC....1
CUSA...2

Highest ranked team per conference (AP poll) based on what conference each team is currently in, not where they were when they were ranked):


............AAC...MWC...MAC...CUSA...SBC...FCS

2008......17.....11.......32......35......NR.....NR
2009........8......4.......23......37......NR......40
2010......21......9.......29......NR......NR......39
2011......18......8.......28......20......35.......32
2012......28.....16......22......30.......32......36
2013......15.....27......28......NR......NR......29
2014......25.....16......37......23.......NR......NR
2015.......8......29.....31.......24.......33......NR
2016......19.....25......15......29.......NR......NR
2017.......6......22......NR.....30.......31.......NR
05-30-2018 10:20 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #69
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
I do think Eastern Michigan should dropped down to either FCs or D2. That could open a door for an Illinois State, Indiana State or Northern Iowa to join the MAC.
05-30-2018 11:22 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: MAC Expansion Idea
There is not a hill of beans difference in Football, but their is a difference in distributions, with CUSA averaging about $2M or so more than the MAC. Nobody in CUSA is going to leave the South and join a Midwest league and play Wednesday Night football before 500 fans in freezing Great Lakes weather ... oh and take a $2M cut in income.

One year the MAC does a little better in Football and, oh this changes everything. CUSA is too big and too spread out. But the solution is not to expand the even more sickly MAC. There wont be any moves to the lower revenue conference. I put the numbers up, it's not even a question.

The only schools that would go MAC are FCS right now.
05-30-2018 11:54 AM
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Post: #71
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 11:54 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Nobody in CUSA is going to leave the South and join a Midwest league and play Wednesday Night football before 500 fans in freezing Great Lakes weather ... oh and take a $2M cut in income.

Chuck Landon disagrees with you.
05-30-2018 12:17 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #72
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 11:54 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is not a hill of beans difference in Football, but their is a difference in distributions, with CUSA averaging about $2M or so more than the MAC. Nobody in CUSA is going to leave the South and join a Midwest league and play Wednesday Night football before 500 fans in freezing Great Lakes weather ... oh and take a $2M cut in income.

One year the MAC does a little better in Football and, oh this changes everything. CUSA is too big and too spread out. But the solution is not to expand the even more sickly MAC. There wont be any moves to the lower revenue conference. I put the numbers up, it's not even a question.

The only schools that would go MAC are FCS right now.

You put up some numbers, but what do they mean, and how do they compare with other conferences? Those are questions.

CUSA members now get about $200K a year each from their media contract, compared with $800K for the MAC. Both conferences earned the same number of NCAA tournament units. They both get about the same amount from the CFP (WMU is the only school from either conference to get an NY6 payout).

So what, in your numbers, accounts for the difference? Do CUSA "distributions" include exit fees from schools that left for the AAC? Could MAC distributions be net of member costs (like bowl travel expenses) while CUSA are gross (before deducting expenses)?

I'm not convinced CUSA members are getting more money. Nevertheless, I agree there is no good reason for a CUSA team to go to the MAC unless it greatly improves travel. And no team who would leave for that reason would improve either conference's power rating or revenue per team. By the same token, no one would be leaving the MAC for CUSA either.

We can argue all day about which is the taller midget, but both are still midgets at the end of that day.
05-30-2018 01:35 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #73
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
MAC gets 7 units for 6 years when next year’s NCAAT distributions roll around.

CUSA 3.0 has 8 units over its 4 years of existence. CUSA has won 4 years in a row (UAB, MTSU, MTSU, Marshall).
05-30-2018 02:34 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 12:17 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  
(05-30-2018 11:54 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Nobody in CUSA is going to leave the South and join a Midwest league and play Wednesday Night football before 500 fans in freezing Great Lakes weather ... oh and take a $2M cut in income.

Chuck Landon disagrees with you.

Sports reporters are notoriously bad at math, especially financially related. File this under Nebraska fans want to return to the Big 12.
05-30-2018 10:04 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: MAC Expansion Idea
One of the things not reported in the TV deal is the production costs the MAC pays. All we have is second hand comments from school officials here and there who say they barely break even after the MAC production costs. This is why the MAC has such low distributions, few TV dollars ever exit the MAC HQ, so you get some schools with minimal or no apparel or other deals of note collecting as little as $2.5M (e.g., Ball State). It's difficult to get a better breakdown. But the point is the totals are lower in the MAC than C-USA, indicating the money reported is not making it back to the schools.

Distributions and rights vary from school to school. This includes things like Bowl payout distributions. The 2016-17 numbers are actually HIGH for the MAC because they include distributing WMU's NY6 appearance take (hence their $4.4M). 2017-18 is likely to be lower for the MAC. (Note, I am on record as saying FAU has the inside track to get the G5 NY6 slot if they can get through the OOC 3-1, as they will roll by blowouts the 9 CUSA games, while the best in the AAC and MWC will beat each other up and have a pair of losses most likely; this should boost CUSA a little in 2018-19 if I'm right.)

When you look at the actual number the MAC is almost as bad as the Sun Belt. This is why they have mid-week November MACtion. It's a sign of weakness, not strength. We all know their gate has suffered significantly. But the decision has been made to trade off that for exposure - a conscience advertising decision. C-USA made the opposite decision to protect gate, with regular Saturday games and meager TV, but also less overhead. How does that fare?

Well ODU is defending $4,237,654 in ticket sales plus $5,851,095 in donations (people who attend are more likely to donate ... duh). Marshall, the other most mentioned MAC love interest is protecting $3,499,254 in gate and $4,038,955 donations. This compares to WMich, the leading MAC school totals of $2,962,803 in ticket sales with $2,742,325 donations. The MAC ranges all the way down (7 schools total gate of less than $1.3M) to these four (yikes!)

School, Ticket Sales Donations,
Ball, $1,064,726, $ 310,062
CMich, $ 724,471, $1,774,258
Kent, $ 509,730, $ 921,287
EMich, $ 231,725, $ 607,580

There is no question those weeknight games cost each MAC school at least a few hundred thousand in gate, and likely a similar amount in donations. It's a trade off C-USA school conscientiously decided against. The numbers above indicate it is the right choice.

Look, I am well aware that there is strong sentiment among ODU, JMU, and Marshall for a regional conference of say 10 schools, and they all agree on Miami U and Ohio U, probably UDel and App State, with desires to nab WKU and Middle Tennessee. But that is going to happen. Changing a Southern conference with an upper South Division for a Great Lakes one with less revenue and a questionable weeknight November football program does not look at all attractive to me, and cannot imagine it looks any better to one of those schools when they open the books (both ways) and realize this situation.

Bottom line, no C-USA school will go to the MAC or seriously entertain, it if courted, once they look at the books.
05-30-2018 11:38 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 11:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  One of the things not reported in the TV deal is the production costs the MAC pays. All we have is second hand comments from school officials here and there who say they barely break even after the MAC production costs. This is why the MAC has such low distributions, few TV dollars ever exit the MAC HQ, so you get some schools with minimal or no apparel or other deals of note collecting as little as $2.5M (e.g., Ball State). It's difficult to get a better breakdown. But the point is the totals are lower in the MAC than C-USA, indicating the money reported is not making it back to the schools.

Distributions and rights vary from school to school. This includes things like Bowl payout distributions. The 2016-17 numbers are actually HIGH for the MAC because they include distributing WMU's NY6 appearance take (hence their $4.4M). 2017-18 is likely to be lower for the MAC. (Note, I am on record as saying FAU has the inside track to get the G5 NY6 slot if they can get through the OOC 3-1, as they will roll by blowouts the 9 CUSA games, while the best in the AAC and MWC will beat each other up and have a pair of losses most likely; this should boost CUSA a little in 2018-19 if I'm right.)

When you look at the actual number the MAC is almost as bad as the Sun Belt. This is why they have mid-week November MACtion. It's a sign of weakness, not strength. We all know their gate has suffered significantly. But the decision has been made to trade off that for exposure - a conscience advertising decision. C-USA made the opposite decision to protect gate, with regular Saturday games and meager TV, but also less overhead. How does that fare?

Well ODU is defending $4,237,654 in ticket sales plus $5,851,095 in donations (people who attend are more likely to donate ... duh). Marshall, the other most mentioned MAC love interest is protecting $3,499,254 in gate and $4,038,955 donations. This compares to WMich, the leading MAC school totals of $2,962,803 in ticket sales with $2,742,325 donations. The MAC ranges all the way down (7 schools total gate of less than $1.3M) to these four (yikes!)

School, Ticket Sales Donations,
Ball, $1,064,726, $ 310,062
CMich, $ 724,471, $1,774,258
Kent, $ 509,730, $ 921,287
EMich, $ 231,725, $ 607,580

There is no question those weeknight games cost each MAC school at least a few hundred thousand in gate, and likely a similar amount in donations. It's a trade off C-USA school conscientiously decided against. The numbers above indicate it is the right choice.

Look, I am well aware that there is strong sentiment among ODU, JMU, and Marshall for a regional conference of say 10 schools, and they all agree on Miami U and Ohio U, probably UDel and App State, with desires to nab WKU and Middle Tennessee. But that is going to happen. Changing a Southern conference with an upper South Division for a Great Lakes one with less revenue and a questionable weeknight November football program does not look at all attractive to me, and cannot imagine it looks any better to one of those schools when they open the books (both ways) and realize this situation.

Bottom line, no C-USA school will go to the MAC or seriously entertain, it if courted, once they look at the books.

A CUSA school won't go to the MAC, and a MAC school won't go to CUSA. Marshall is the closest I suppose, since they were already in the MAC and it isn't bad geographically for them, particularly the MAC East. But the weeknight games by themselves would, I believe, keep them from wanting to move back. If it was me it would, anyway.
05-31-2018 11:14 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #77
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-31-2018 11:14 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(05-30-2018 11:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  One of the things not reported in the TV deal is the production costs the MAC pays. All we have is second hand comments from school officials here and there who say they barely break even after the MAC production costs. This is why the MAC has such low distributions, few TV dollars ever exit the MAC HQ, so you get some schools with minimal or no apparel or other deals of note collecting as little as $2.5M (e.g., Ball State). It's difficult to get a better breakdown. But the point is the totals are lower in the MAC than C-USA, indicating the money reported is not making it back to the schools.

Distributions and rights vary from school to school. This includes things like Bowl payout distributions. The 2016-17 numbers are actually HIGH for the MAC because they include distributing WMU's NY6 appearance take (hence their $4.4M). 2017-18 is likely to be lower for the MAC. (Note, I am on record as saying FAU has the inside track to get the G5 NY6 slot if they can get through the OOC 3-1, as they will roll by blowouts the 9 CUSA games, while the best in the AAC and MWC will beat each other up and have a pair of losses most likely; this should boost CUSA a little in 2018-19 if I'm right.)

When you look at the actual number the MAC is almost as bad as the Sun Belt. This is why they have mid-week November MACtion. It's a sign of weakness, not strength. We all know their gate has suffered significantly. But the decision has been made to trade off that for exposure - a conscience advertising decision. C-USA made the opposite decision to protect gate, with regular Saturday games and meager TV, but also less overhead. How does that fare?

Well ODU is defending $4,237,654 in ticket sales plus $5,851,095 in donations (people who attend are more likely to donate ... duh). Marshall, the other most mentioned MAC love interest is protecting $3,499,254 in gate and $4,038,955 donations. This compares to WMich, the leading MAC school totals of $2,962,803 in ticket sales with $2,742,325 donations. The MAC ranges all the way down (7 schools total gate of less than $1.3M) to these four (yikes!)

School, Ticket Sales Donations,
Ball, $1,064,726, $ 310,062
CMich, $ 724,471, $1,774,258
Kent, $ 509,730, $ 921,287
EMich, $ 231,725, $ 607,580

There is no question those weeknight games cost each MAC school at least a few hundred thousand in gate, and likely a similar amount in donations. It's a trade off C-USA school conscientiously decided against. The numbers above indicate it is the right choice.

Look, I am well aware that there is strong sentiment among ODU, JMU, and Marshall for a regional conference of say 10 schools, and they all agree on Miami U and Ohio U, probably UDel and App State, with desires to nab WKU and Middle Tennessee. But that is going to happen. Changing a Southern conference with an upper South Division for a Great Lakes one with less revenue and a questionable weeknight November football program does not look at all attractive to me, and cannot imagine it looks any better to one of those schools when they open the books (both ways) and realize this situation.

Bottom line, no C-USA school will go to the MAC or seriously entertain, it if courted, once they look at the books.

A CUSA school won't go to the MAC, and a MAC school won't go to CUSA. Marshall is the closest I suppose, since they were already in the MAC and it isn't bad geographically for them, particularly the MAC East. But the weeknight games by themselves would, I believe, keep them from wanting to move back. If it was me it would, anyway.

Pretty much what I've been saying for a long time. There simply is no compelling reason for alignment change in either the G5 or the P5, barring some cataclysmic game changer. Whatever plusses there may be, they don't outweigh the minuses by enough to overcome inertia.
05-31-2018 12:12 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #78
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
I think one school that we need to keep an eye on is Tulsa. Their enrollment have gone down. They are under 5000 students and dropping. There was an article a year or 2 ago talking about the decline of the school, and not many fans in the seats I do not know how long they can be able to stay in D1. This could open up realignment. There are only 4 schools at FBS level under 5000. Tulsa, Air Force, Army and Navy.
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2018 06:13 PM by DavidSt.)
05-31-2018 06:13 PM
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lance99 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
(05-30-2018 11:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no question those weeknight games cost each MAC school at least a few hundred thousand in gate, and likely a similar amount in donations. It's a trade off C-USA school conscientiously decided against. The numbers above indicate it is the right choice.

Sign of weakness? Please tell all of us why?
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2018 08:15 PM by lance99.)
05-31-2018 08:15 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #80
RE: MAC Expansion Idea
The MAC has a couple good things going for it:

Tight geographic footprint
Parity among the top and bottom of the league

I really wish they would ditch the weeknight MACTION games or renotiate a deal with ESPN so that the conference played fewer weeknight games at the season's end and the SBC or one of their other properties were interwoven into the weeknight schedule.

Playing half of your home conference games on weeknights in late October and November is killing gate revenues and overall perception of the league. When people look at attendance figures or camera angles of the stands on television the perception is that this is a conference that no one cares about when in reality it's because the media deal in place sabotages fan attendance, particularly at a point in the season where Midwestern nights can be bitter cold and unpredictable.
05-31-2018 09:01 PM
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