(06-05-2018 10:22 AM)cb4029 Wrote:  Pardons are for criminals.

Funny you would say that.

I'm not trying to steer into whataboutism as much as hypocrisy

https://lawandcrime.com/opinion/if-hilla...-helpless/

Dan Abrams... Clinton could pardon herself. It's an opinion piece but worth the read.

(06-05-2018 08:44 AM)fsquid Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:30 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

1) You're wrong. Mueller is wasting everybody's time.
2) A sitting President cannot be indicted.
3) Trump has the power to pardon himself as granted by the Constitution, if need be.

Granted? I'd think that a court would need to rule on a self pardon.

That defeats the point of a pardon.

Congress could impeach him as provided in the constitution but he can pretty much tell a judge to eff off.

We already have an FIB, CIA coup. Do we need a weekly judge coup?

(06-05-2018 08:28 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

Alan Dershowitz knows more about constitutional law than you do, is an unabashed flaming liberal, and says no.

And I think he’s going to be proven wrong...

So you know more about constitutional law than Dershowitz?

(06-05-2018 01:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:28 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

Alan Dershowitz knows more about constitutional law than you do, is an unabashed flaming liberal, and says no.

And I think he’s going to be proven wrong...

So you know more about constitutional law than Dershowitz?

I think he's wrong and there are people who are every bit as versed on con law as Dershowitz who also believe that's the case.

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:50 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:48 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:30 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

1) You're wrong. Mueller is wasting everybody's time.
2) A sitting President cannot be indicted.
3) Trump has the power to pardon himself as granted by the Constitution, if need be.

there are certainly differing legal opinions. If Trump pardons himself, however, he will most definately be impeached, provided the democrats take the House and then convicted in the Senate.

1) Differing legal opinions be damned. Read the Constitution. It's very simple. The only people trying to muddy the waters are those who are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Constitution.
2) The Democrats won't take the House or the Senate.
Just face it - you're in for 6 more years of the Trumpster.

They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

(06-05-2018 01:16 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:28 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

Alan Dershowitz knows more about constitutional law than you do, is an unabashed flaming liberal, and says no.

And I think he’s going to be proven wrong...

So you know more about constitutional law than Dershowitz?

I think he's wrong and there are people who are every bit as versed on con law as Dershowitz who also believe that's the case.

Like whom?

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:50 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:48 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:30 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  1) You're wrong. Mueller is wasting everybody's time.
2) A sitting President cannot be indicted.
3) Trump has the power to pardon himself as granted by the Constitution, if need be.

there are certainly differing legal opinions. If Trump pardons himself, however, he will most definately be impeached, provided the democrats take the House and then convicted in the Senate.

1) Differing legal opinions be damned. Read the Constitution. It's very simple. The only people trying to muddy the waters are those who are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Constitution.
2) The Democrats won't take the House or the Senate.
Just face it - you're in for 6 more years of the Trumpster.

They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

When you strike at the king....

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:50 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:48 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:30 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  1) You're wrong. Mueller is wasting everybody's time.
2) A sitting President cannot be indicted.
3) Trump has the power to pardon himself as granted by the Constitution, if need be.

there are certainly differing legal opinions. If Trump pardons himself, however, he will most definately be impeached, provided the democrats take the House and then convicted in the Senate.

1) Differing legal opinions be damned. Read the Constitution. It's very simple. The only people trying to muddy the waters are those who are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Constitution.
2) The Democrats won't take the House or the Senate.
Just face it - you're in for 6 more years of the Trumpster.

They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

As it sits now, impeachment would die in the Senate. I believe if the President pardons himself...and that was the hypothetical being tossed around... the Senate would convict and oust him. He does not have enough Republican allies in the Senate to overlook a self-pardon.

(06-05-2018 01:16 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:28 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

Alan Dershowitz knows more about constitutional law than you do, is an unabashed flaming liberal, and says no.

And I think he’s going to be proven wrong...

So you know more about constitutional law than Dershowitz?

I think he's wrong and there are people who are every bit as versed on con law as Dershowitz who also believe that's the case.

I'm not sure there is anyone on the planet more well-versed on the law than Dershowitz.

Is a campaign official witness tampering similar to a President intern diddling. One will definitely get a President impeached. Not sure about the other.

(06-05-2018 01:37 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:50 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:48 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  there are certainly differing legal opinions. If Trump pardons himself, however, he will most definately be impeached, provided the democrats take the House and then convicted in the Senate.

1) Differing legal opinions be damned. Read the Constitution. It's very simple. The only people trying to muddy the waters are those who are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Constitution.
2) The Democrats won't take the House or the Senate.
Just face it - you're in for 6 more years of the Trumpster.

They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

As it sits now, impeachment would die in the Senate. I believe if the President pardons himself...and that was the hypothetical being tossed around... the Senate would convict and oust him. He does not have enough Republican allies in the Senate to overlook a self-pardon.

Since we are talking about the absurd, then how can Mr. Trump pardon himself when he can't be tried/convicted? Or are you now saying that some court, pick one, Federal, State, civil, etc has jurisdiction over him while he is the POTUS?

(06-05-2018 02:12 PM)Oman Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:37 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:50 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  1) Differing legal opinions be damned. Read the Constitution. It's very simple. The only people trying to muddy the waters are those who are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Constitution.
2) The Democrats won't take the House or the Senate.
Just face it - you're in for 6 more years of the Trumpster.

They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

As it sits now, impeachment would die in the Senate. I believe if the President pardons himself...and that was the hypothetical being tossed around... the Senate would convict and oust him. He does not have enough Republican allies in the Senate to overlook a self-pardon.

Since we are talking about the absurd, then how can Mr. Trump pardon himself when he can't be tried/convicted? Or are you now saying that some court, pick one, Federal, State, civil, etc has jurisdiction over him while he is the POTUS?

This.is.the.whole.point. He can be impeached. That's the way it works. Every lunatic in the world would judge shop and sue the President.

The fbi/cia coup has been difficult enough to battle

Holy shite, shep smith just tried to frame manafort's alleged crimes as "funneling money for political work to the pro-Russian president of Ukraine"

He of course left out any dates. (Hint: manafort's alleged crimes go back more than a decade before his work with the Trump campaign)

bahahahahaha

Shameless cuck.

(06-05-2018 02:12 PM)Oman Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:37 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 08:50 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  1) Differing legal opinions be damned. Read the Constitution. It's very simple. The only people trying to muddy the waters are those who are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Constitution.
2) The Democrats won't take the House or the Senate.
Just face it - you're in for 6 more years of the Trumpster.

They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

As it sits now, impeachment would die in the Senate. I believe if the President pardons himself...and that was the hypothetical being tossed around... the Senate would convict and oust him. He does not have enough Republican allies in the Senate to overlook a self-pardon.

Since we are talking about the absurd, then how can Mr. Trump pardon himself when he can't be tried/convicted? Or are you now saying that some court, pick one, Federal, State, civil, etc has jurisdiction over him while he is the POTUS?

The President said he could pardon himself, which is why this is being discussed.

Legally, he probably can pardon himself. Politically, it would probably be a disastrous mistake.

I can see where such a pardon could lead to impeachment and enough republican senators might be pissed off enough to vote to convict. I don't see any reason to do it. Any impeachment will die on the senate floor unless he does something stupid to give it life.

(06-05-2018 02:33 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 02:12 PM)Oman Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:37 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

As it sits now, impeachment would die in the Senate. I believe if the President pardons himself...and that was the hypothetical being tossed around... the Senate would convict and oust him. He does not have enough Republican allies in the Senate to overlook a self-pardon.

Since we are talking about the absurd, then how can Mr. Trump pardon himself when he can't be tried/convicted? Or are you now saying that some court, pick one, Federal, State, civil, etc has jurisdiction over him while he is the POTUS?

The President said he could pardon himself, which is why this is being discussed.

It was brought up in 2016 when another candidate was under investigation.

Keep overlooking that.

(06-05-2018 02:40 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Legally, he probably can pardon himself. Politically, it would probably be a disastrous mistake.

I can see where such a pardon could lead to impeachment and enough republican senators might be pissed off enough to vote to convict. I don't see any reason to do it. Any impeachment will die on the senate floor unless he does something stupid to give it life.

Owl I'm not a legal expert but if he pardons himself, they impeach, what grounds would they impeach on?

(06-05-2018 02:33 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 02:12 PM)Oman Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:37 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 01:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 09:01 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  They won't take the Senate ths cycle, but have a good shot at the House.
If he pardons himself then he admits to committing a crime. If he admits he committed a crime, and if Republicans opt to not impeach, then they are dead as a singular political party.

Suppose democrats take the house this fall and their first order of business is articles of impeachment, which will pretty much have to be based upon, "we don't like you," rather than any "high crime or misdemeanor." Then it goes to the senate where it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. Democrats will not take 2/3 of the senate in 2018; there aren't enough republican seats at stake even if they scored a clean sweep. So any impeachment will die in the senate.

Then it turns into a PR battle. And if the American public gets the idea that Trump was somehow railroaded, God help the democrats.

And as I see it, that is the best possible outcome for democrats.

You would think under those circumstances they would shift gears and go after policy issues instead of shouting over and over, "Trump is a crook." All I can guess is that their policies are doing very badly in their internal polling.

As it sits now, impeachment would die in the Senate. I believe if the President pardons himself...and that was the hypothetical being tossed around... the Senate would convict and oust him. He does not have enough Republican allies in the Senate to overlook a self-pardon.

Since we are talking about the absurd, then how can Mr. Trump pardon himself when he can't be tried/convicted? Or are you now saying that some court, pick one, Federal, State, civil, etc has jurisdiction over him while he is the POTUS?

The President said he could pardon himself, which is why this is being discussed.

As i understand it his claim that he could pardon himself is one of the defenses as to why he can't be tried and convicted, not a statement made in a vacuum. That's the whole point, what good is a conviction when the convicted can pardon himself?

And for what it's worth I felt the same when Clinton was sued by Jones, I would have told them to stick it in their ear. When you go into a trial you admit that court has jurisdiction over you, and the judiciary does NOT have jurisdiction over the POTUS. and yes I understand the supreme court said Clinton could be sued, big deal. When he refused to appear what would the court do, arrest him?

This whole thing is just a big wet dream by some wackos who want to "get Trump" He may well be the biggest AREHole ever to be in elected office, but none of that matters. He's there, now we all get to live with it.

(06-04-2018 10:14 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Trump will get nailed for obstruction.

What did he obstruct?

(06-05-2018 02:46 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(06-05-2018 02:40 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Legally, he probably can pardon himself. Politically, it would probably be a disastrous mistake.

I can see where such a pardon could lead to impeachment and enough republican senators might be pissed off enough to vote to convict. I don't see any reason to do it. Any impeachment will die on the senate floor unless he does something stupid to give it life.

Owl I'm not a legal expert but if he pardons himself, they impeach, what grounds would they impeach on?

If he pardons himself, then he is admitting to the crime.