(06-27-2018 05:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 05:41 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:53 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 11:57 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 11:31 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Isn't their biggest rival in conference Florida St?--the school who actually competes for division titles?

No, it's Georgia Tech. FSU is second and there is no third.

I agree. Clemson's rivals are South Carolina, Florida State, and Georgia Tech. They are developing rivalry with Auburn. Strictly the ACC it is FSU, GT and maybe NC, NC State.

Neither UNC or NC State are Clemson rivals. They are simply conference teams we play, NC State yearly and UNC every so often.

Clemson and VT could be rivals, but they only play once every 6 years.

I think Va Tech would like to be considered one of Clemson's rivals, but the word for that love affair would be "unrequited".

(06-27-2018 04:51 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 08:02 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 06:51 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 02:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  ACC could go for a big home run to capture sports for their network.

They should go to like 22 teams to get Notre Dame in for football.

1.Navy football only
2.UConn.
3.Cincinnati
4.Villanova
5.Georgetown
6.St. John's
7.Memphis

If they go 24? Rice and Tulane would get in for their academics. Rice for their baseball.

This would not "entice" ND at all, David.

Why would it? How would this convince ND to give up football independence?

In fact, none of the "just add ND" posts explain why any of these proposals would convince ND to give up the status quo and put its football program into the ACC.

Currently, more TV money and a theoretical "easier" playoff route don't move that needle.

Terry, I think you know I have always supported Notre Dame's wishes to remain independent in football. And, I have said that I doubt there was a CFP scenario on the horizon that would force the issue. However, I do think it would be in the ACC's best interest for the Irish to be members for all sports. It's one of the reasons I floated this idea in the first place.

To recap from ND's point of view, this is what I would ask of the Irish (knowing that I can't promise anything on behalf of the league).

Notre Dame comes into the league in a northern division consisting of the Irish plus Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Navy and Miami. They may, if they choose, play one or more teams from the other division, but are not required to. The top two teams from this division, based solely on the division round robin results, play in a four team conference championship tournament. Notre Dame's participation in the CFP and bowl games is the same as any other ACC school.

They would now have five games outside the conference, two of which are presumably committed to USC and Stanford. The other three are anybody they choose. ND would have no special media rights or revenues other than those available to any ACC member.

The only additional commitment to the ACC is one additional division game, since ND would have played Navy anyway in addition to their five ACC opponents.

Do you think that would even be considered by Notre Dame?

Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

Committing almost half its season to the ACC is moving a bit more than an inch away from independence...

But still not a football conference team and one with its own separate TV deal.

Still an independent.

(06-26-2018 09:00 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 07:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:48 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 07:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What about this: the ACC makes a deal to with the Big Ten and SEC to support legislation for conference semi-final games on the condition that neither conference raids the ACC for at least 12 years. This allows those leagues to raid the Big 12 (Pac 12 can get on the game too if they want) and the ACC can breathe easy knowing that they are safe.

Notre Dame is offered full membership on the condition that for football the ACC is split into 3 pods with the the winners and a wildcard advancing to the conference playoff.

Pod A: BC, Pitt, Cuse, ND, Miami
Pod B: GT, Duke, UNC, UVA, VT
Pod C: WF, NC St, Clemson, L'ville, and FSU

Schools are only required to play division mates and two other non-division opponents for a total of 6 conference games that count toward division standings.

Schools are encouraged to play additional ACC opponents but not required.

ND is hitched to the conference and only has to play 6 league games and can still play Navy, USC, Stanford, and any 3 schools they choose.

The other option is you bring in WVU or UConn as #16 and do 4 pods of 4 but still keep the 6 game minimum.

Those divisions absolutely suck

Find me a more equitable way to split the conference in 3 and preserve historic rivalries then

First off you can start by preserving actual rivalries. You failed to preserve Clemson's primary ACC rival.

Ah, the Textile Bowl.

(06-27-2018 06:40 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 05:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 05:41 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:53 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 11:57 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  No, it's Georgia Tech. FSU is second and there is no third.

I agree. Clemson's rivals are South Carolina, Florida State, and Georgia Tech. They are developing rivalry with Auburn. Strictly the ACC it is FSU, GT and maybe NC, NC State.

Neither UNC or NC State are Clemson rivals. They are simply conference teams we play, NC State yearly and UNC every so often.

Clemson and VT could be rivals, but they only play once every 6 years.

I think Va Tech would like to be considered one of Clemson's rivals, but the word for that love affair would be "unrequited".

If we played every year IMO it would become a rivalry because of the shared academic mission, military roots, football first mentality, and their insecurity at having the second best team entrance in the ACC.

(06-27-2018 03:56 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 08:02 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 06:51 AM)TerryD Wrote:  This would not "entice" ND at all, David.

Why would it? How would this convince ND to give up football independence?

In fact, none of the "just add ND" posts explain why any of these proposals would convince ND to give up the status quo and put its football program into the ACC.

Currently, more TV money and a theoretical "easier" playoff route don't move that needle.

Terry, I think you know I have always supported Notre Dame's wishes to remain independent in football. And, I have said that I doubt there was a CFP scenario on the horizon that would force the issue. However, I do think it would be in the ACC's best interest for the Irish to be members for all sports. It's one of the reasons I floated this idea in the first place.

To recap from ND's point of view, this is what I would ask of the Irish (knowing that I can't promise anything on behalf of the league).

Notre Dame comes into the league in a northern division consisting of the Irish plus Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Navy and Miami. They may, if they choose, play one or more teams from the other division, but are not required to. The top two teams from this division, based solely on the division round robin results, play in a four team conference championship tournament. Notre Dame's participation in the CFP and bowl games is the same as any other ACC school.

They would now have five games outside the conference, two of which are presumably committed to USC and Stanford. The other three are anybody they choose. ND would have no special media rights or revenues other than those available to any ACC member.

The only additional commitment to the ACC is one additional division game, since ND would have played Navy anyway in addition to their five ACC opponents.

Do you think that would even be considered by Notre Dame?

Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

If you are correct, and I have no reason to believe you are not, then Notre Dame is off the board of potential expansion candidates for the ACC. I further believe that Navy would then only come into play as a potential partner with West Virginia. But, since I don't believe West Virginia could get enough votes for admittance, then all three of those schools are off the table.

I don't believe there are any other candidates who could get the votes to be invited and who would accept if invited. Therefore, I would conclude that the ACC's expansion days are over, and the status quo will prevail until at least 2036.

I believe the same is true for the Big Ten and the PAC. That is, I don't think any schools who could get invited would accept. That only leaves the SEC and the Big 12, who would likely only add schools to replace ones taken by the SEC. So, until the SEC chooses to act (or not), P5 realignment isn't happening IMO.

I agree with your conclusion. The ACC adding Connecticut or does not change a thing. The next move is the SEC's and I lean toward invites to Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. I do not see Texas heading for the PAC 12. Therefore, Houston, Memphis, Cincinatti and probably BYU are shoe ins for the Big 12.

My question here is this. If, a year ago, the Big 12 would not expand to 12 even though that was what was needed at the time for a CCG, why would they now go to 12 even though they only need 10 for the CCG? Was Oklahoma the only thing holding them back then?

And, FWIW, I don't think the remaining members of the Big 12 would feel any need to mollify West Virginia by giving them a "travel partner". That's the kind of thing you might do if you are wooing a prospective new member. That's no longer the case. IMO, if they were to go to 12, the other two (besides Houston and Memphis) would more likely be UCF and USF.

But there is always the possibility that they would do nothing and stay at 8, allowing Texas to have two more OOC games than they have now rather than risk losing the Horns as well.

I think the most likely decision would be to just add Houston and Memphis and accept the haircut they would almost certainly get with the loss of the Sooners.

(06-27-2018 09:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  But there is always the possibility that they would do nothing and stay at 8

The return of the Big 8!

The ACC wont get the next round started but they will pick the bones of whats left. The SEC and the B1G are the lions and the ACC and Pac are the hyenas who wait until the big cats are done feeding on the Big XII before grabbing what they can.

I think the ACC expands to 16 with WVU and Cincy to add two new states and bring in some more rivalries. Also makes a nice little pod of Cincy, Louisville, WVU and Pitt. Though they need to hope they don't get bit by the B1G again.

The Pac will grab two from TX, one from OK and one from KS. Who that is depends on who is left after the big cats are done.

I would love to see each of the power conferences go to 16 teams made up of four 4 team divisions.

Each team would play it's 3 division rivals every year and two teams from each other pod every year. That way a senior will play every team in the conference home and away in their college careers.

For example the P4 would look like this.

ACC

West: Louisville, Cincy, WVU, Pitt
North: BC, Cuse, VT, UVA
East: WF, UNC, Duke, NC St
South: FSU, Miami, GT, Clemson

SEC

West: Texas, A&M, TCU, LSU
North: UK, Mizz, Vandy, Arkansas
East: UF, UGA, USC, Tennessee
South: Bama, Auburn, Miss St, Ole Miss

B1G

West: Nebraska, OU, Kansas, Iowa
North: Minn, Wisc, NW, Illinois
East: PSU, RU, Maryland, OSU
South: UM, MSU, Indiana, Purdue

Pac-16

West: USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal
North: UW, WSU, UO, OSU
East: OSU, KSU, Houston, Texas Tech
South: ASU, UA, Utah, Colorado

(06-27-2018 08:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 06:40 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 05:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Clemson and VT could be rivals, but they only play once every 6 years.

I think Va Tech would like to be considered one of Clemson's rivals, but the word for that love affair would be "unrequited".

If we played every year IMO it would become a rivalry because of the shared academic mission, military roots, football first mentality, and their insecurity at having the second best team entrance in the ACC.

(06-27-2018 07:00 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 04:51 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 08:02 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 06:51 AM)TerryD Wrote:  This would not "entice" ND at all, David.

Why would it? How would this convince ND to give up football independence?

In fact, none of the "just add ND" posts explain why any of these proposals would convince ND to give up the status quo and put its football program into the ACC.

Currently, more TV money and a theoretical "easier" playoff route don't move that needle.

Terry, I think you know I have always supported Notre Dame's wishes to remain independent in football. And, I have said that I doubt there was a CFP scenario on the horizon that would force the issue. However, I do think it would be in the ACC's best interest for the Irish to be members for all sports. It's one of the reasons I floated this idea in the first place.

To recap from ND's point of view, this is what I would ask of the Irish (knowing that I can't promise anything on behalf of the league).

Notre Dame comes into the league in a northern division consisting of the Irish plus Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Navy and Miami. They may, if they choose, play one or more teams from the other division, but are not required to. The top two teams from this division, based solely on the division round robin results, play in a four team conference championship tournament. Notre Dame's participation in the CFP and bowl games is the same as any other ACC school.

They would now have five games outside the conference, two of which are presumably committed to USC and Stanford. The other three are anybody they choose. ND would have no special media rights or revenues other than those available to any ACC member.

The only additional commitment to the ACC is one additional division game, since ND would have played Navy anyway in addition to their five ACC opponents.

Do you think that would even be considered by Notre Dame?

Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

Committing almost half its season to the ACC is moving a bit more than an inch away from independence...

But still not a football conference team and one with its own separate TV deal.

Still an independent.

But not as fully independent as they were 15 years ago. It's fair to say ND has surrendered some of their independence.

Not as independent as say BYU is.

(06-28-2018 09:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 07:00 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 04:51 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 08:02 AM)ken d Wrote:  Terry, I think you know I have always supported Notre Dame's wishes to remain independent in football. And, I have said that I doubt there was a CFP scenario on the horizon that would force the issue. However, I do think it would be in the ACC's best interest for the Irish to be members for all sports. It's one of the reasons I floated this idea in the first place.

To recap from ND's point of view, this is what I would ask of the Irish (knowing that I can't promise anything on behalf of the league).

Notre Dame comes into the league in a northern division consisting of the Irish plus Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Navy and Miami. They may, if they choose, play one or more teams from the other division, but are not required to. The top two teams from this division, based solely on the division round robin results, play in a four team conference championship tournament. Notre Dame's participation in the CFP and bowl games is the same as any other ACC school.

They would now have five games outside the conference, two of which are presumably committed to USC and Stanford. The other three are anybody they choose. ND would have no special media rights or revenues other than those available to any ACC member.

The only additional commitment to the ACC is one additional division game, since ND would have played Navy anyway in addition to their five ACC opponents.

Do you think that would even be considered by Notre Dame?

Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

Committing almost half its season to the ACC is moving a bit more than an inch away from independence...

But still not a football conference team and one with its own separate TV deal.

Still an independent.

But not as fully independent as they were 15 years ago. It's fair to say ND has surrendered some of their independence.

Not as independent as say BYU is.

Good Point. I never really compared the two programs idea of "independence."

(06-28-2018 09:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 07:00 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 04:51 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 08:02 AM)ken d Wrote:  Terry, I think you know I have always supported Notre Dame's wishes to remain independent in football. And, I have said that I doubt there was a CFP scenario on the horizon that would force the issue. However, I do think it would be in the ACC's best interest for the Irish to be members for all sports. It's one of the reasons I floated this idea in the first place.

To recap from ND's point of view, this is what I would ask of the Irish (knowing that I can't promise anything on behalf of the league).

Notre Dame comes into the league in a northern division consisting of the Irish plus Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Navy and Miami. They may, if they choose, play one or more teams from the other division, but are not required to. The top two teams from this division, based solely on the division round robin results, play in a four team conference championship tournament. Notre Dame's participation in the CFP and bowl games is the same as any other ACC school.

They would now have five games outside the conference, two of which are presumably committed to USC and Stanford. The other three are anybody they choose. ND would have no special media rights or revenues other than those available to any ACC member.

The only additional commitment to the ACC is one additional division game, since ND would have played Navy anyway in addition to their five ACC opponents.

Do you think that would even be considered by Notre Dame?

Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

Committing almost half its season to the ACC is moving a bit more than an inch away from independence...

But still not a football conference team and one with its own separate TV deal.

Still an independent.

But not as fully independent as they were 15 years ago. It's fair to say ND has surrendered some of their independence.

Not as independent as say BYU is.

haha so true. Don't let the Notre Dame guys know they play 5 conference games.

(06-28-2018 10:01 AM)Huskies12 Wrote:  

(06-28-2018 09:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 07:00 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 04:51 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

Committing almost half its season to the ACC is moving a bit more than an inch away from independence...

But still not a football conference team and one with its own separate TV deal.

Still an independent.

But not as fully independent as they were 15 years ago. It's fair to say ND has surrendered some of their independence.

Not as independent as say BYU is.

haha so true. Don't let the Notre Dame guys know they play 5 conference games.

Do these "conference games" count in the standings? What ACC football division does ND play in?

What are the odds that ND will win its football division this season?

Why are ND home games on NBC and not ABC/ESPN?

How are the five games a year with the ACC, a scheduling agreement, different than ND playing 3 Big Ten teams each year (1978-2012) and two Big East teams (BC, Pitt) every season?

We can keep debating this, but ND is still a football independent, not an ACC football member.

If it were a football member, and not a football independent, this thread and all talk of ND joining a football conference would be superfluous.

(06-27-2018 09:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:56 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 08:02 AM)ken d Wrote:  Terry, I think you know I have always supported Notre Dame's wishes to remain independent in football. And, I have said that I doubt there was a CFP scenario on the horizon that would force the issue. However, I do think it would be in the ACC's best interest for the Irish to be members for all sports. It's one of the reasons I floated this idea in the first place.

To recap from ND's point of view, this is what I would ask of the Irish (knowing that I can't promise anything on behalf of the league).

Notre Dame comes into the league in a northern division consisting of the Irish plus Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Virginia Tech, Navy and Miami. They may, if they choose, play one or more teams from the other division, but are not required to. The top two teams from this division, based solely on the division round robin results, play in a four team conference championship tournament. Notre Dame's participation in the CFP and bowl games is the same as any other ACC school.

They would now have five games outside the conference, two of which are presumably committed to USC and Stanford. The other three are anybody they choose. ND would have no special media rights or revenues other than those available to any ACC member.

The only additional commitment to the ACC is one additional division game, since ND would have played Navy anyway in addition to their five ACC opponents.

Do you think that would even be considered by Notre Dame?

Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

If you are correct, and I have no reason to believe you are not, then Notre Dame is off the board of potential expansion candidates for the ACC. I further believe that Navy would then only come into play as a potential partner with West Virginia. But, since I don't believe West Virginia could get enough votes for admittance, then all three of those schools are off the table.

I don't believe there are any other candidates who could get the votes to be invited and who would accept if invited. Therefore, I would conclude that the ACC's expansion days are over, and the status quo will prevail until at least 2036.

I believe the same is true for the Big Ten and the PAC. That is, I don't think any schools who could get invited would accept. That only leaves the SEC and the Big 12, who would likely only add schools to replace ones taken by the SEC. So, until the SEC chooses to act (or not), P5 realignment isn't happening IMO.

I agree with your conclusion. The ACC adding Connecticut or does not change a thing. The next move is the SEC's and I lean toward invites to Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. I do not see Texas heading for the PAC 12. Therefore, Houston, Memphis, Cincinatti and probably BYU are shoe ins for the Big 12.

My question here is this. If, a year ago, the Big 12 would not expand to 12 even though that was what was needed at the time for a CCG, why would they now go to 12 even though they only need 10 for the CCG? Was Oklahoma the only thing holding them back then?

And, FWIW, I don't think the remaining members of the Big 12 would feel any need to mollify West Virginia by giving them a "travel partner". That's the kind of thing you might do if you are wooing a prospective new member. That's no longer the case. IMO, if they were to go to 12, the other two (besides Houston and Memphis) would more likely be UCF and USF.

But there is always the possibility that they would do nothing and stay at 8, allowing Texas to have two more OOC games than they have now rather than risk losing the Horns as well.

I think the most likely decision would be to just add Houston and Memphis and accept the haircut they would almost certainly get with the loss of the Sooners.

Good Points.

One other is the travel cost for non football sports. I do not see UCF and USF joining BIG 12 due to the travel cost for the total AD budget.

ND is positioning its non football sports makes sense regionally. If the ACC states to ND to come on board fully or take all your teams and go, then ND will have to become a full member of the ACC. ND wants all there "programs" associated with a P5 football conference. Therefore, where will they go?

The SEC - Nope
The Big Ten - Nope
The PAC 12 - Nope
The Big 12 - Nope

Therefore, the ND is unofficially an ACC school. This only works because the PAC 12 wants to keep the yearly matchup with USC and Stanford. Plus the traditionalist want the yearly ND/Navy game.


Note: ND/Stanford became a yearly game in 1988. ND/Navy played every year since 1927.

If UCONN is added to the ACC with Notre Dame, the season would be locked every year with Navy, Southern Cal and Stanford, nine games conference schedule. This leaves no games to schedule every year.

If the SEC acquires Oklahoma and Oklahoma State then ND has to join the ACC outright because the P5 Champ requirement becomes mandatory.

So the present arrangement, only works if the majority of the P5 values a home and home with ND.

Note: UGA beat ND 20-19 last year. In 2019 ND goes to UGA.

ND has home and home games against Ohio State (2022/23), Texas AM (2024/25) ,Purdue (2024 to 2028 with three at Purdue) and Alabama (2028/29).

It looks like ND had to agree to home and home games with the Big Ten and SEC to keep every body happy, for now. This arrangement helps ND with the voters over the next few years to keep their cash value.

(06-28-2018 10:24 AM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 09:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:56 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

If you are correct, and I have no reason to believe you are not, then Notre Dame is off the board of potential expansion candidates for the ACC. I further believe that Navy would then only come into play as a potential partner with West Virginia. But, since I don't believe West Virginia could get enough votes for admittance, then all three of those schools are off the table.

I don't believe there are any other candidates who could get the votes to be invited and who would accept if invited. Therefore, I would conclude that the ACC's expansion days are over, and the status quo will prevail until at least 2036.

I believe the same is true for the Big Ten and the PAC. That is, I don't think any schools who could get invited would accept. That only leaves the SEC and the Big 12, who would likely only add schools to replace ones taken by the SEC. So, until the SEC chooses to act (or not), P5 realignment isn't happening IMO.

I agree with your conclusion. The ACC adding Connecticut or does not change a thing. The next move is the SEC's and I lean toward invites to Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. I do not see Texas heading for the PAC 12. Therefore, Houston, Memphis, Cincinatti and probably BYU are shoe ins for the Big 12.

My question here is this. If, a year ago, the Big 12 would not expand to 12 even though that was what was needed at the time for a CCG, why would they now go to 12 even though they only need 10 for the CCG? Was Oklahoma the only thing holding them back then?

And, FWIW, I don't think the remaining members of the Big 12 would feel any need to mollify West Virginia by giving them a "travel partner". That's the kind of thing you might do if you are wooing a prospective new member. That's no longer the case. IMO, if they were to go to 12, the other two (besides Houston and Memphis) would more likely be UCF and USF.

But there is always the possibility that they would do nothing and stay at 8, allowing Texas to have two more OOC games than they have now rather than risk losing the Horns as well.

I think the most likely decision would be to just add Houston and Memphis and accept the haircut they would almost certainly get with the loss of the Sooners.

Good Points.

One other is the travel cost for non football sports. I do not see UCF and USF joining BIG 12 due to the travel cost for the total AD budget.

ND is positioning its non football sports makes sense regionally. If the ACC states to ND to come on board fully or take all your teams and go, then ND will have to become a full member of the ACC. ND wants all there "programs" associated with a P5 football conference. Therefore, where will they go?

The SEC - Nope
The Big Ten - Nope
The PAC 12 - Nope
The Big 12 - Nope

Therefore, the ND is unofficially an ACC school. This only works because the PAC 12 wants to keep the yearly matchup with USC and Stanford. Plus the traditionalist want the yearly ND/Navy game.


Note: ND/Stanford became a yearly game in 1988. ND/Navy played every year since 1927.

If UCONN is added to the ACC with Notre Dame, the season would be locked every year with Navy, Southern Cal and Stanford, nine games conference schedule. This leaves no games to schedule every year.

If the SEC acquires Oklahoma and Oklahoma State then ND has to join the ACC outright because the P5 Champ requirement becomes mandatory.

So the present arrangement, only works if the majority of the P5 values a home and home with ND.

Note: UGA beat ND 20-19 last year. In 2019 ND goes to UGA.

ND has home and home games against Ohio State (2022/23), Texas AM (2024/25) ,Purdue (2024 to 2028 with three at Purdue) and Alabama (2028/29).

It looks like ND had to agree to home and home games with the Big Ten and SEC to keep every body happy, for now. This arrangement helps ND with the voters over the next few years to keep their cash value.

While I don't think UCF and USF would get an invite, I doubt they would turn one down if offered. The difference between P5 money and G5 money covers a lot of travel bills. And if you look at the map, those schools are already traveling pretty far. I don't think there would be any difference in their travel costs.

And I don't think any G5 school at this point is going to turn down any P5 offer and risk passing on their last chance to board the train.

(06-28-2018 10:24 AM)FloridaJag Wrote:  If the SEC acquires Oklahoma and Oklahoma State then ND has to join the ACC outright because the P5 Champ requirement becomes mandatory.

I disagree. Texas could keep the B12 on life-support in that situation. Theoretically, they could add BYU and stay at 9, keeping the round-robin, but adding an extra OOC game

Or Texas could go independent and the committee would still have to consider two blue-bloods in Texas and Notre Dame are independent, therefore the playoff selection process remains the same, except the B12 losing the Sugar Bowl.

(06-28-2018 10:24 AM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 09:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:56 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

If you are correct, and I have no reason to believe you are not, then Notre Dame is off the board of potential expansion candidates for the ACC. I further believe that Navy would then only come into play as a potential partner with West Virginia. But, since I don't believe West Virginia could get enough votes for admittance, then all three of those schools are off the table.

I don't believe there are any other candidates who could get the votes to be invited and who would accept if invited. Therefore, I would conclude that the ACC's expansion days are over, and the status quo will prevail until at least 2036.

I believe the same is true for the Big Ten and the PAC. That is, I don't think any schools who could get invited would accept. That only leaves the SEC and the Big 12, who would likely only add schools to replace ones taken by the SEC. So, until the SEC chooses to act (or not), P5 realignment isn't happening IMO.

I agree with your conclusion. The ACC adding Connecticut or does not change a thing. The next move is the SEC's and I lean toward invites to Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. I do not see Texas heading for the PAC 12. Therefore, Houston, Memphis, Cincinatti and probably BYU are shoe ins for the Big 12.

My question here is this. If, a year ago, the Big 12 would not expand to 12 even though that was what was needed at the time for a CCG, why would they now go to 12 even though they only need 10 for the CCG? Was Oklahoma the only thing holding them back then?

And, FWIW, I don't think the remaining members of the Big 12 would feel any need to mollify West Virginia by giving them a "travel partner". That's the kind of thing you might do if you are wooing a prospective new member. That's no longer the case. IMO, if they were to go to 12, the other two (besides Houston and Memphis) would more likely be UCF and USF.

But there is always the possibility that they would do nothing and stay at 8, allowing Texas to have two more OOC games than they have now rather than risk losing the Horns as well.

I think the most likely decision would be to just add Houston and Memphis and accept the haircut they would almost certainly get with the loss of the Sooners.

Good Points.

One other is the travel cost for non football sports. I do not see UCF and USF joining BIG 12 due to the travel cost for the total AD budget.

ND is positioning its non football sports makes sense regionally. If the ACC states to ND to come on board fully or take all your teams and go, then ND will have to become a full member of the ACC. ND wants all there "programs" associated with a P5 football conference. Therefore, where will they go?

The SEC - Nope
The Big Ten - Nope
The PAC 12 - Nope
The Big 12 - Nope

Therefore, the ND is unofficially an ACC school. This only works because the PAC 12 wants to keep the yearly matchup with USC and Stanford. Plus the traditionalist want the yearly ND/Navy game.


Note: ND/Stanford became a yearly game in 1988. ND/Navy played every year since 1927.

If UCONN is added to the ACC with Notre Dame, the season would be locked every year with Navy, Southern Cal and Stanford, nine games conference schedule. This leaves no games to schedule every year.

If the SEC acquires Oklahoma and Oklahoma State then ND has to join the ACC outright because the P5 Champ requirement becomes mandatory.

So the present arrangement, only works if the majority of the P5 values a home and home with ND.

Note: UGA beat ND 20-19 last year. In 2019 ND goes to UGA.

ND has home and home games against Ohio State (2022/23), Texas AM (2024/25) ,Purdue (2024 to 2028 with three at Purdue) and Alabama (2028/29).

It looks like ND had to agree to home and home games with the Big Ten and SEC to keep every body happy, for now. This arrangement helps ND with the voters over the next few years to keep their cash value.

If the ACC pushes ND and they don't want to join up in FB with ANY conference they can easily rejoin the Big East. That conference has proven itself to be a legit non-FB power conference. I don't think the ACC is so foolish to push ND and they like being associated with the Irish. BUT it's not like ND has no other options.

(06-28-2018 10:37 AM)ken d Wrote:  While I don't think UCF and USF would get an invite, I doubt they would turn one down if offered. The difference between P5 money and G5 money covers a lot of travel bills. And if you look at the map, those schools are already traveling pretty far. I don't think there would be any difference in their travel costs.

And I don't think any G5 school at this point is going to turn down any P5 offer and risk passing on their last chance to board the train.

Did someone actually opine that if UCF or USF were invited to the Big 12 they would decline?

(06-28-2018 02:38 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  If the ACC pushes ND and they don't want to join up in FB with ANY conference they can easily rejoin the Big East. That conference has proven itself to be a legit non-FB power conference. I don't think the ACC is so foolish to push ND and they like being associated with the Irish. BUT it's not like ND has no other options.

The ACC can't "push" Notre Dame even if it wanted to, not at least for another 19 years. They have a contract that goes out until 2037.

In theory, does it make it easier for the conference if there are more than one partial football members with regard to scheduling? That it becomes a factor to more/all in the conference, and not ones drawing ND that season?

I'm one who has thought over the years Navy could be ACC material. Consider the Big East Navy started conversations with about joining still had Pitt, Cuse, WVU, Louisville, and Rutgers...it's never been totally out there. I don't think it happens for the same reason why Navy demanded it be placed in the south and western part of the AAC...it's where the school does its best recruiting. The ACC isn't in places like Tennessee, Texas, Louisiana, or Oklahoma. I don't think Navy's really interested until there's western expansion for the ACC.

(06-28-2018 10:24 AM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 09:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:56 PM)FloridaJag Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 03:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 01:57 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Respectfully, Ken. I do not (not that my opinion matters). More importantly, Jack Swarbrick has indicated ND's intentions in several interviews.

He has stated that, if the playoffs went to a P4, champs only format, ND would have no choice but to reluctantly and without any enthusiasm then join the ACC in football.

If no P4 champs only playoff, ND is currently satisfied with the status quo that is currently legally locked into place until 2036.

ND football has been independent since it began in 1887. ND doesn't want to put its football team in the conference, and likely will not, unless forced to against its will.

I mean, it could currently be making about $20 million a year more as a full Big Ten member, but does not want to join that conference.

I recall that many thought that the increased conference TV payouts would entice ND to drop independence. Then, many thought that the relatively harder route to the playoffs as an independent would do the trick.

To many people's surprise (not mine), ND did not blink. Neither multiple more millions in TV money nor a better chance at the playoffs moved ND one inch from its independent status.

If those things did not, I don't think things like only 7 conference games or Navy joining the ACC as a football only member will do the trick.

(I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but noted that in all of the many posts therein, not one tried to analyze this issue from ND's point of view).

If you are correct, and I have no reason to believe you are not, then Notre Dame is off the board of potential expansion candidates for the ACC. I further believe that Navy would then only come into play as a potential partner with West Virginia. But, since I don't believe West Virginia could get enough votes for admittance, then all three of those schools are off the table.

I don't believe there are any other candidates who could get the votes to be invited and who would accept if invited. Therefore, I would conclude that the ACC's expansion days are over, and the status quo will prevail until at least 2036.

I believe the same is true for the Big Ten and the PAC. That is, I don't think any schools who could get invited would accept. That only leaves the SEC and the Big 12, who would likely only add schools to replace ones taken by the SEC. So, until the SEC chooses to act (or not), P5 realignment isn't happening IMO.

I agree with your conclusion. The ACC adding Connecticut or does not change a thing. The next move is the SEC's and I lean toward invites to Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. I do not see Texas heading for the PAC 12. Therefore, Houston, Memphis, Cincinatti and probably BYU are shoe ins for the Big 12.

My question here is this. If, a year ago, the Big 12 would not expand to 12 even though that was what was needed at the time for a CCG, why would they now go to 12 even though they only need 10 for the CCG? Was Oklahoma the only thing holding them back then?

And, FWIW, I don't think the remaining members of the Big 12 would feel any need to mollify West Virginia by giving them a "travel partner". That's the kind of thing you might do if you are wooing a prospective new member. That's no longer the case. IMO, if they were to go to 12, the other two (besides Houston and Memphis) would more likely be UCF and USF.

But there is always the possibility that they would do nothing and stay at 8, allowing Texas to have two more OOC games than they have now rather than risk losing the Horns as well.

I think the most likely decision would be to just add Houston and Memphis and accept the haircut they would almost certainly get with the loss of the Sooners.

Good Points.

One other is the travel cost for non football sports. I do not see UCF and USF joining BIG 12 due to the travel cost for the total AD budget.

ND is positioning its non football sports makes sense regionally. If the ACC states to ND to come on board fully or take all your teams and go, then ND will have to become a full member of the ACC. ND wants all there "programs" associated with a P5 football conference. Therefore, where will they go?

The SEC - Nope
The Big Ten - Nope
The PAC 12 - Nope
The Big 12 - Nope

Therefore, the ND is unofficially an ACC school. This only works because the PAC 12 wants to keep the yearly matchup with USC and Stanford. Plus the traditionalist want the yearly ND/Navy game.


Note: ND/Stanford became a yearly game in 1988. ND/Navy played every year since 1927.

If UCONN is added to the ACC with Notre Dame, the season would be locked every year with Navy, Southern Cal and Stanford, nine games conference schedule. This leaves no games to schedule every year.

If the SEC acquires Oklahoma and Oklahoma State then ND has to join the ACC outright because the P5 Champ requirement becomes mandatory.

So the present arrangement, only works if the majority of the P5 values a home and home with ND.

Note: UGA beat ND 20-19 last year. In 2019 ND goes to UGA.

ND has home and home games against Ohio State (2022/23), Texas AM (2024/25) ,Purdue (2024 to 2028 with three at Purdue) and Alabama (2028/29).

It looks like ND had to agree to home and home games with the Big Ten and SEC to keep every body happy, for now. This arrangement helps ND with the voters over the next few years to keep their cash value.

A few points:

--Jack Swarbrick's scheduling philosophy is based on being an independent in the playoff era.

--He wants games with Georgia, Michigan, Southern Cal, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, etc...

--It is ND's choice to so schedule, not to make the Big Ten, SEC or any conference "happy" with ND's status.

--Swarbrick calls it having "markers" against all P5 conferences so that ND can compete for a potential playoff spot as an independent in the playoff era.

--He calls it "My 12 is better than your 13" regarding the lack of a conference championship game. You can disagree with him, but that is his scheduling philosophy.

--The fact that he is scheduling this way, far out in the future, tells one that ND intends to remain independent.


"Regardless, he said that as an independent it’s Notre Dame’s duty to build the resume with a 12-game schedule that matches or eclipses any 13-game slate a conference team might have with a league playoff.

“We have to be good enough to navigate it,” Swarbrick said. “If you’re going to be independent, you have to be independent. Independence means playing the best schedule you can. If you’re not going to do that, don’t be an independent.

“We’ve chosen to be independent.”


https://notredame.rivals.com/news/jack-s...-schedules



"Q: Switching gears, what would it take for Notre Dame to join the ACC full time in football?

A: You can always weigh some circumstance that would do it, but we don’t think that way and we are very comfortable with and focused on our independence because of the things it does for the university, not for us. If we didn’t have a broadcast partner, that would be one thing. But we have a great relationship with NBC and look forward to that continuing.

I don’t foresee any change in philosophy which would ever cause us to do it.

[On the first day of ACC media days Thursday, conference Commissioner John Swofford was asked this same question. He said Notre Dame joining the ACC as a full member is “not a point of discussion” between the university and the league.

"There wasn’t an expectation that at some point in time Notre Dame would ask for full membership in football,” Swofford said. “That is not a point of discussion at this given point in time. Obviously, if Notre Dame reached the point where they wanted to have that discussion, we would readily sit down and speak with them about that."]

Q:Have you found that not having a 13th game or winning a conference is hurting Notre Dame as it pertains to the College Football Playoff?

A: There will be years where not having a conference championship works against us. We understand that, we factor it into our calculus. But, given the schedules we’re building, I’ll be very comfortable arguing most years that our 12 games compare favorably with everybody else’s 13. When you say a 13-game schedule is superior to our 12-game schedule, you have to compare all the games. We’re building schedules that I think will stand up to that comparison well. They’ll be very tough to navigate. No one will ever accuse us of backing in with the schedules we’ve built for the future."


https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/co...467734001/



--There is no legal mechanism for the ACC to give ND an ultimatium.

--The contracts between ND/ACC/ESPN cement ND's current status legally, until 2036.

--Besides the GOR, the exit fee and the ACC Network deal, ND has a contract with the ACC that says IF ND ever joins a football conference before 2036, it must be the ACC.

--Nothing in the documents mandates such a decision. In fact, legally, it guarantees ND's current status and gives it a full share of any ACC Network profits.


"Notre Dame will continue to get the best of both worlds from the ACC through at least 2037.

The conference announced an extension of its football agreement with the Fighting Irish on Thursday. Notre Dame, a member of the ACC in all sports but football, will play five ACC teams every year from 2026 through ’37.

Notre Dame gets to retain its football independence while the ACC’s television contract gets a boost from the home dates its teams have with the Irish (All Notre Dame’s home games are still on NBC).

Notre Dame also gets to participate in the ACC’s bowl tie-ins and access to its annual spotlight national game on Labor Day"


https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/coll...60542.html


--So, those with fantasies of the ACC giving ND an ultimatum or kicking them out can leave all of them right here. No sale.

--ND is complying with all contracts with the ACC, so there is no "cause" to kick ND out, even if the ACC wanted to. No legal mechanism exists for such action.