(06-26-2018 12:30 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 11:52 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Oh wow didn’t realize how bad Air Force hoops has been in 38 years of WAC/MWC competition.

The AFA has a height restriction for cadets, in addition to the post-graduation service commitment.

Their struggles in hoops is another reason why there isn't a no-football conference that both AFA would want to join and the conference would want AFA. The Missouri Valley? They are keen on trying to boost their members' chances of NCAA invitations and better seeding so that teams like this year's Loyola-Chicago have a better shot at making a run in the tournament. The MVC's worst team this year, Valparaiso, had an RPI of 187. The MVC wouldn't bring in Air Force's 253 RPI. Conversely, Air Force leadership isn't going to put AFA into the Summit or ZWAC.

If you could give AFA a conference like the Patriot League, or if the Patriot League would invite AFA (IIRC AFA asked once and was told no), that's probably the only way they'll leave the MWC.

Not true. Big 12 went after them when they lost Colorado. Outside of them, no conferences want them.

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

(06-26-2018 02:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

But they play Army and Navy every year already. The CIC is a mini-conference, sorta like the Big 5.

So then the question is do they value being connected with the Front Range schools more than SMU/Tulsa/Tulane? It certainly seems as though they do.

(06-26-2018 08:11 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 02:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

But they play Army and Navy every year already. The CIC is a mini-conference, sorta like the Big 5.

So then the question is do they value being connected with the Front Range schools more than SMU/Tulsa/Tulane? It certainly seems as though they do.

Yes.

Air Force left the WAC with CSU and Wyoming (after being upset that the WAC football divisions would separate them from CSU and Wyoming) and they were not upset about leaving SMU and Tulsa in the WAC. Since leaving the WAC, Air Force has never played SMU or Tulsa in football (or Tulane for that matter).

(06-26-2018 02:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

Actually, Bullet I agree with you with one unlikely exception. They actually belong with the Ivy League. But since that isn't likely, I must say that it's pretty obvious that the AAC is the best of the G5 athletically if not academically.

What it would take to land them would be Army and at least a 4 member half division closer to them. Then Air Force might take it.

(06-26-2018 08:09 AM)esayem Wrote:  Army went 10-2 before joining C-USA and floated around .500 the years before that. They were always tough and respectable, not the doormat they became after C-USA. Granted, their new coach tried to implement a West Coast passing attack, which was part of their demise. Another note, the C-USA they joined was a better football conference than the American; it housed two P5 teams in Louisville and TCU, after all.

Yeah but even back then they were good, not great. Why play a C-USA/AAC schedule when you can play a national schedule? Same for Navy, after their traditional games against the academies and their Notre Dame game, they're down to one other game plus a potential bowl game.

(06-26-2018 09:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 08:09 AM)esayem Wrote:  Army went 10-2 before joining C-USA and floated around .500 the years before that. They were always tough and respectable, not the doormat they became after C-USA. Granted, their new coach tried to implement a West Coast passing attack, which was part of their demise. Another note, the C-USA they joined was a better football conference than the American; it housed two P5 teams in Louisville and TCU, after all.

Yeah but even back then they were good, not great. Why play a C-USA/AAC schedule when you can play a national schedule? Same for Navy, after their traditional games against the academies and their Notre Dame game, they're down to one other game plus a potential bowl game.

Navy is at least a legitimate annual contender for a BCS(/NY6) bowl now. That was never the case pre-AAC.

No they're not, they've had a few good years but that's the exception not the rule.

Didn't Army relax their physical standards in the last couple years. I thought they relaxed it. Now they should be able to get bigger linemen right? I could be way off.

(06-26-2018 09:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 08:09 AM)esayem Wrote:  Army went 10-2 before joining C-USA and floated around .500 the years before that. They were always tough and respectable, not the doormat they became after C-USA. Granted, their new coach tried to implement a West Coast passing attack, which was part of their demise. Another note, the C-USA they joined was a better football conference than the American; it housed two P5 teams in Louisville and TCU, after all.

Yeah but even back then they were good, not great. Why play a C-USA/AAC schedule when you can play a national schedule? Same for Navy, after their traditional games against the academies and their Notre Dame game, they're down to one other game plus a potential bowl game.

We are on the same page. I do not think it wise for Army to join the American, and I said the same about Navy, but they’ve been competitive. Navy has been blessed with back to back great coaches with great schemes and discipline, as one should expect from America’s finest.

I’m bitter about the NCAA ruling allowing conferences to hold title games with a round robin instead of divisions; it’s about 15 years too late and conferences would make a lot more sense had it happened then. I think Houston and either BYU or Cincinnati should be in the Big XII (why does the Big XII deserve the spoils when they’ve been failing to retain members) and Rice should be in the American’s West Division with their peers. I think that division would entice Army much more than the current configuration. In reality, Army has the freedom to schedule Rice and any number of mid-majors across the land, drawing a crowd wherever they may play. Status quo makes the most sense for the Cadets.

(06-26-2018 08:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 08:11 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 02:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

But they play Army and Navy every year already. The CIC is a mini-conference, sorta like the Big 5.

So then the question is do they value being connected with the Front Range schools more than SMU/Tulsa/Tulane? It certainly seems as though they do.

Yes.

Air Force left the WAC with CSU and Wyoming (after being upset that the WAC football divisions would separate them from CSU and Wyoming) and they were not upset about leaving SMU and Tulsa in the WAC. Since leaving the WAC, Air Force has never played SMU or Tulsa in football (or Tulane for that matter).

Air Force was a key driving force behind the fomation of the MWC when it looked like the new WAC pod mess would not let them play CSU and Wyo every year. In Fact they talked about leaving the WAC publicly when the POD system was announced

Nothing against Army n Air Force but I like AAC current 12 lineup.

The academy teams are hamstrung because of military weight standards. We lose a potential officer with every injury. Things are fine now, and no, Army-Navy will never give up playing the last regular season football game of the season. That is a sacred weekend.

(06-26-2018 02:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

People in this thread are significantly underestimating the "western" identity of Air Force. It sets them apart from the far older academies in the east.

Air Force has zero natural affinity with any AAC schools, except of course for Navy.

What would it take? Hmmm. An act of congress?

(06-26-2018 08:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 02:29 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-25-2018 08:06 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  Air Force is not going anywhere. They actually value their relationship with Colorado State, Wyoming and to some extent, New Mexico. Plus, they play Boise State, Navy and Army every year. Why give all that up for a conference they have nothing in common with?

Army could be convinced though.

SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Army? Air Force has nothing in common with them?

They fit much better with the AAC schools.

Actually, Bullet I agree with you with one unlikely exception. They actually belong with the Ivy League. But since that isn't likely, I must say that it's pretty obvious that the AAC is the best of the G5 athletically if not academically.

What it would take to land them would be Army and at least a 4 member half division closer to them. Then Air Force might take it.

It would give Air Force and Navy a lot more scheduling flexibility. Now both have 8 conference games + two service academies. This would make it 6 + 2. Army would still have lots of scheduling flexibility. And they would be playing small privates like they often do. Air Force would also have a conference that covers more of the countries population.

Here is Navy's future ooc http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa/indep/na...hipmen.php
With Notre Dame, they just have one game free (two if they play at Hawaii).

2018
09/01 - at Hawaii
09/15 - Lehigh
10/06 - at Air Force
10/27 - Notre Dame (at San Diego, CA)
12/08 - Army (Philadelphia, PA)
2019
08/31 - Holy Cross
10/05 - Air Force
11/16 - at Notre Dame
12/14 - Army (Philadelphia, PA)
2020
09/05 - Notre Dame (at E. Rutherford, NJ)
09/12 - Lafayette
10/03 - at Air Force
12/12 - Army (Philadelphia, PA)
2021
09/04 - Marshall
10/02 - Air Force
11/06 - at Notre Dame
12/11 - Army (at E. Rutherford, NJ)
2022
12/10 - Army (Philadelphia, PA)
TBA - at Air Force
TBA - Notre Dame
2023
09/02 - at Marshall
12/09 - Army (site TBA)
TBA - Air Force
TBA - at Notre Dame

Below is Army. Note schools like Duke, Rice, Tulane, Wake Forest and several FCS privates.
2018
09/01 - at Duke
09/08 - Liberty
09/15 - Hawaii
09/22 - at Oklahoma
09/29 - at Buffalo
At San Jose St.
Miami
At EMU
Air Force
Lafayette
Colgate
Navy
Complete 2018 Football Schedule
2019
09/07 - at Michigan
09/21 - Morgan State
10/05 - Tulane
10/12 - at WKU
at Georgia St.
San Jose St.
UMass
VMI
At Hawaii
Navy
Complete 2019 Football Schedule
2020
09/05 - Bucknell
09/12 - at Rice
09/19 - at Tulane
09/26 - Oklahoma
10/03 - at Miami (OH)
EMU
At UMass
Buffalo
At San Jose
At Navy
Complete 2020 Football Schedule
2021
09/04 - at Georgia State
09/11 - Western Kentucky
09/18 - San Jose State
09/25 - Miami (OH)
10/02 - at Ball State
10/16 - at Wisconsin
10/23 - Wake Forest
11/13 - Bucknell
11/20 - UMass
11/27 - at Liberty
12/11 - Navy (at E. Rutherford, NJ)
TBA - at Air Force
2022
09/03 - at Coastal Carolina
09/17 - at Tennessee
09/24 - Dartmouth
10/01 - Georgia State
10/08 - at Wake Forest
10/15 - Colgate
11/12 - at UMass
12/10 - Navy (Philadelphia, PA)
TBA - Air Force
2023
09/23 - at Syracuse
10/28 - UMass
11/18 - Coastal Carolina
12/09 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - at Air Force
2024
09/07 - at UMass
09/21 - Syracuse
11/16 - Wake Forest
11/30 - at Hawaii
12/14 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - Air Force
2025
09/13 - North Texas
09/20 - Liberty
09/27 - at Syracuse
11/15 - at Wake Forest
11/22 - UMass
12/13 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - at Air Force
2026
09/26 - Syracuse
10/17 - at Coastal Carolina
11/14 - Wake Forest
11/21 - at UMass
11/28 - at Liberty
12/12 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - Air Force
2027
10/23 - Coastal Carolina
10/30 - at North Texas
11/20 - UMass
12/11 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - at Air Force
2028
11/18 - at UMass
12/09 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - Air Force
2029
12/11 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - at Air Force
2030
12/14 - Navy (site TBA)
TBA - Air Force
2031
12/13 - Navy (site TBA)

(06-27-2018 12:57 PM)Huskies12 Wrote:  Didn't Army relax their physical standards in the last couple years. I thought they relaxed it. Now they should be able to get bigger linemen right? I could be way off.

Army's changes in the last couple years have been to set up a 501C(3) organization like the Naval Academy Athletic Association, and some pragmatic (honestly common sense) changes like adjusting summer training schedules/prioritization to allow the football team time to gather for fall camp.

The height weight issue is West Point propaganda and not a difference. Read Feinstein's "Civil War" where he talks about Army's "Fat Men" on the O-Line two decades ago. Here's a good link about how Navy gets the big men to fleet standards in five months between bowl game and commissioning:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/co...8e8f847a39
Similar propaganda, Calhoun lies to the media with a straight face that they don't have anyone over 285, when their roster (which is questionable reporting anyway, leaving off freshmen so they can deceive recruits) shows 300-pounders.

(06-26-2018 09:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 08:09 AM)esayem Wrote:  Army went 10-2 before joining C-USA and floated around .500 the years before that. They were always tough and respectable, not the doormat they became after C-USA. Granted, their new coach tried to implement a West Coast passing attack, which was part of their demise. Another note, the C-USA they joined was a better football conference than the American; it housed two P5 teams in Louisville and TCU, after all.

Yeah but even back then they were good, not great. Why play a C-USA/AAC schedule when you can play a national schedule? Same for Navy, after their traditional games against the academies and their Notre Dame game, they're down to one other game plus a potential bowl game.

I'm replying to C2, because this is the post that prompted me to pull together these thoughts. However, I'm also addressing some points in subsequent posts.

As a Navy fan, I completely understand the rationale for joining the Big East in 2011-2012 (pursued for years, started talking about how to get to "yes" in 2011, and announced in January 2012) and sticking through the chaos to be proud members of the AAC. Because of why we gave up independence in the first place, I am all-in with the P6 campaign. And saying all that, I miss our ability to schedule as an independent including both lower-level contract-bowl-conference teams with whom we had a lot of history as well as the occassional big-time game.

Look at our last few years of independence...in 2014, Ohio State returned a home-and-home, which we played in Baltimore. Additionally Rutgers. In 2013, Indiana Duke and Pitt. In 2012 PennState Indiana and Arizona State in a bowl. In 2011 South Carolina and Rutgers.
Now, as pointed out, 8 conference games plus AF, Army, & ND we have one game to schedule, and we have been choosing to get a 5th true home game with an FCS. That has recently been all Patriot League to give a little something back to our all-sports league partners.

Joining the Big East / AAC was done for two major reasons. The primary was to be on the right side of the divide in 2025-ish. USNA could accomplish its mission without being at the top level of football, BUT being at the top level of football is central to how we accomplish the mission today. It's a front porch and a first look for many many midshipman candidates, not just football players. It funds our other 32 varsity intercollegiate sports -- if any, ANY of your schools do that much I'll be shocked -- as well as directly funding club sports and contributing to the intramural programs which ALL mids do to keep with the "develop midshipmen...physically" part of the mission.
The second reason was that although we were successful as an independent, it was getting harder. Bowl deals through '16, but no guarantees beyond that. Scheduling was getting harder, especially in November. tOSU, Penn State, South Carolina would still say yes, but a lot of schools stopped taking our calls - Indiana coach Kevin Wilson said he never wanted to play us again after the two games mentioned above. Look again at Army's November - uninspiring. Uninspiring, but before Monken's recent success, other ADs still said yes. We were more of a no-win, as in the last 15 years we have more BCS auto / "P5" wins than any non-BCS-auto/"P5" school. Yes, more than Boise State. With a couple winning seasons, their scheduling may get even harder.