Should Southern U. leave The SWAC?

I just found this article which is interesting. This was brought up after Hampton University announced that they are leaving MEAC and Savannah State dropping down. I think the FCS could rearrange to be more geographical regions because a lot lesser money at the lower D1 levels. This might also split The Southland into 2 conferences down the future as the Texas based Southland becoming the new SWC type. The Southland could be Louisiana, Arkansas and western Mississippi schools conference. SWAC could be pushed eastward by adding Bethune-Cookman, Florida A&M, Tuskegee, Lemoyne-Owen, and Albany State. That would help ease the travel somewhat for the northern MEAC schools.

(07-04-2018 02:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Should Southern U. leave The SWAC?

I just found this article which is interesting. This was brought up after Hampton University announced that they are leaving MEAC and Savannah State dropping down. I think the FCS could rearrange to be more geographical regions because a lot lesser money at the lower D1 levels. This might also split The Southland into 2 conferences down the future as the Texas based Southland becoming the new SWC type. The Southland could be Louisiana, Arkansas and western Mississippi schools conference. SWAC could be pushed eastward by adding Bethune-Cookman, Florida A&M, Tuskegee, Lemoyne-Owen, and Albany State. That would help ease the travel somewhat for the northern MEAC schools.

In a word, No. Whatever financial difficulties SU is having are pretty common to all FCS schools. The Southland Conference is by no means a Land of Milk and Honey.

Like with all schools, the solution for SU is to build enthusiasm among its extensive fan base for its athletics. Playing new teams in another conference won't do that.

(07-04-2018 07:17 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-04-2018 02:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Should Southern U. leave The SWAC?

I just found this article which is interesting. This was brought up after Hampton University announced that they are leaving MEAC and Savannah State dropping down. I think the FCS could rearrange to be more geographical regions because a lot lesser money at the lower D1 levels. This might also split The Southland into 2 conferences down the future as the Texas based Southland becoming the new SWC type. The Southland could be Louisiana, Arkansas and western Mississippi schools conference. SWAC could be pushed eastward by adding Bethune-Cookman, Florida A&M, Tuskegee, Lemoyne-Owen, and Albany State. That would help ease the travel somewhat for the northern MEAC schools.

In a word, No. Whatever financial difficulties SU is having are pretty common to all FCS schools. The Southland Conference is by no means a Land of Milk and Honey.

Like with all schools, the solution for SU is to build enthusiasm among its extensive fan base for its athletics. Playing new teams in another conference won't do that.

They could bring along their friends of Grambling State, Texas Southern and Prairie View. It could actually boost the attendance in the Southland if they did. Grambling Vs Southern draws FBS size crowd. Look what Hampton did? They left because Big South is more of an upgrade than where they were at. Southland would be an upgrade to the Southland Conference if they leave. Southland is actually making more money for their media rights than the SWAC. They would be playing McNeese State, SE La., NW La. State, Nicholls State and New Orleans. It would give Southern more exposure to bring in new students to enroll than where they are at right now.

(07-04-2018 12:04 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-04-2018 07:17 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-04-2018 02:08 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Should Southern U. leave The SWAC?

I just found this article which is interesting. This was brought up after Hampton University announced that they are leaving MEAC and Savannah State dropping down. I think the FCS could rearrange to be more geographical regions because a lot lesser money at the lower D1 levels. This might also split The Southland into 2 conferences down the future as the Texas based Southland becoming the new SWC type. The Southland could be Louisiana, Arkansas and western Mississippi schools conference. SWAC could be pushed eastward by adding Bethune-Cookman, Florida A&M, Tuskegee, Lemoyne-Owen, and Albany State. That would help ease the travel somewhat for the northern MEAC schools.

In a word, No. Whatever financial difficulties SU is having are pretty common to all FCS schools. The Southland Conference is by no means a Land of Milk and Honey.

Like with all schools, the solution for SU is to build enthusiasm among its extensive fan base for its athletics. Playing new teams in another conference won't do that.

They could bring along their friends of Grambling State, Texas Southern and Prairie View. It could actually boost the attendance in the Southland if they did. Grambling Vs Southern draws FBS size crowd. Look what Hampton did? They left because Big South is more of an upgrade than where they were at. Southland would be an upgrade to the Southland Conference if they leave. Southland is actually making more money for their media rights than the SWAC. They would be playing McNeese State, SE La., NW La. State, Nicholls State and New Orleans. It would give Southern more exposure to bring in new students to enroll than where they are at right now.

SUBR already is very well known in Louisiana and east Texas, which is basically what the Southland conference is. There's no pick-up there in terms of exposure. If anything the SWAC provides more by giving SUBR exposure to the east, in Alabama and Mississippi.

Southern has problems because like all Louisiana schools, it has been subject to severe budget cuts the last 10 years. Those who think HBCUs are dinosaurs that waste taxpayer money and need to be lopped off should be happy, because that's basically what has happened.

Before Jindal in 2008, the state used to cover about 60% of SU's budget, now it's about 20% so the university is essentially "making it on its own" and not at taxpayer's expense now as it is. And crazily, for the first six years of this budget cutting, the state also mandated that SU (and other Louisiana schools) could not raise its tuition! That's because in Louisiana there is a state scholarship program called TOPS, that in-state students can get, and TOPS is tied to tuition, so if tuition goes up then the cost of TOPS goes up and the state government didn't want that, they were busy cutting taxes on the rich so Jindal could run for GOP nomination for President yelling about how he cut taxes every year (he did just that, and yelled just that, but lasted about 4 minutes in the 2016 race anyway).

So you cut a budget relentlessly but then refuse to let a school be entrepreneurial and raise its tuition? Revenue plummeted, so a lot of facilities are in disrepair in the athletics and academics domains. That hurts recruiting, which hurts quality on the field, and fan support. It also hurts regular student enrollment, which then means budgets have to be cut more, a downward cycle.

That is an internal issue and has nothing to do with conference membership. The SWAC is where SU belongs.

Most of the time, I don’t agree with DavidSt, but this is one of the few instances where I do agree with him. The SWAC is not any healthier than the MEAC, and I’m sure both Grambling & Southern could work things out to keep the Bayou Classic, regardless of what conference either team is in.

(07-04-2018 01:38 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Most of the time, I don’t agree with DavidSt, but this is one of the few instances where I do agree with him. The SWAC is not any healthier than the MEAC, and I’m sure both Grambling & Southern could work things out to keep the Bayou Classic, regardless of what conference either team is in.

The SWAC takes some hits around here, but truth is, there are few conferences more 'stable'. Of its 10 current members, seven have been in the conference for at least 50 years. The last time anyone left the SWAC was in 1970, and that school, UAPB, re-joined 20 years ago.

Truth is, the Big 12 and ACC have lost members more recently than the SWAC, but everyone acts like it is on the verge of disintegration.

The SWAC leads FCS in football attendance every year. I mean, you can set your watch by it. I don't know what conferences schools like James Madison and North Dakota State play in, but the SWAC out-draws those conferences easily.

Does the SWAC sometimes make dumb moves? Yes. Does the SWAC often get things done with bailing wire and duct tape? Yes, but they've gotten good at that, as a conference of HBCUs deep in the former Jim Crow south they never would have survived since the 1920s if they hadn't. But the SWAC also has amazing athletic rivalries and traditions that stretch back more than 80 years, and the fan bases are passionate.

It's pretty sad how folks around here like put to the SWAC on death-watch, particularly fans of johnny-come-way-lately directional G5 universities that compared to the SWAC have contributed zero to the fabric of college football.

The SWAC is stable because so few of the members are attractive to other conferences and few other conferences can offer those schools the games their alumni and fans want to see.

Six SLC publics out-spend Southern but only three are more reliant on school subsidy.

Unless Southern fans start wanting to play Central Arkansas instead of Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Lamar instead of Texas Southern, moving doesn't make sense.

(07-04-2018 02:10 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The SWAC is stable because so few of the members are attractive to other conferences and few other conferences can offer those schools the games their alumni and fans want to see.

Six SLC publics out-spend Southern but only three are more reliant on school subsidy.

Unless Southern fans start wanting to play Central Arkansas instead of Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Lamar instead of Texas Southern, moving doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure if SWAC schools are unattractive to similarly-situated FCS conferences. I do know that Southern's fans would much rather see SU play other HBCUs than other FCS schools, at least in terms of conference play.

SU used to play non-HBCU FCS schools like Nicholls State and Northwestern State, and those games are missed. Sadly, money has meant they have been replaced with payday games vs FBS schools.

(07-04-2018 03:29 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-04-2018 02:10 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The SWAC is stable because so few of the members are attractive to other conferences and few other conferences can offer those schools the games their alumni and fans want to see.

Six SLC publics out-spend Southern but only three are more reliant on school subsidy.

Unless Southern fans start wanting to play Central Arkansas instead of Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Lamar instead of Texas Southern, moving doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure if SWAC schools are unattractive to similarly-situated FCS conferences. I do know that Southern's fans would much rather see SU play other HBCUs than other FCS schools, at least in terms of conference play.

SU used to play non-HBCU FCS schools like Nicholls State and Northwestern State, and those games are missed. Sadly, money has meant they have been replaced with payday games vs FBS schools.

Most HBCU fans of these schools see the writing on the walls that all these HBCU conferences are the bottom feeders at the D1 level. Yes, they will miss the old rivals, but new ones could be made, and at the same time, save the schools from closing with no money to run. I do think if Jackson State could pony up the money, and the city of Jackson and some donors to help fixed the facilities, and make improvements on the stadium? Jackson State could be attractive get in the middle of the Sun Belt Conference territory. Their stadium is very large compare to the others besides Tennessee State. Could be a good place for a future bowl game as well.

I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

(07-08-2018 10:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

If you just looked at the advertising for Arkansas-Pine Bluff and that was all you had to base your opinion on you would think that it has very diverse student population. The reality is roughly 93% of students self-identify as black or African-American.

The school clearly wants to broaden its enrollment but isn't experiencing much success in the effort.

(07-08-2018 10:34 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

If you just looked at the advertising for Arkansas-Pine Bluff and that was all you had to base your opinion on you would think that it has very diverse student population. The reality is roughly 93% of students self-identify as black or African-American.

The school clearly wants to broaden its enrollment but isn't experiencing much success in the effort.

UAPB used to be in an all Arkansas conference in the NAIA. They used to be in the same conference as Little Rock and UCA. For them to move over to the Southland themselves would not be a problem. It would give them more of a tv Presences that they never had. Grambling and Southern games on NBC have been ratings for NBC since they were like the only game played mainly on Thanksgiving. Florida A&M VS Bethune-Cookman have been one of the best tv ratings for the MEAC.

(07-08-2018 10:34 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

If you just looked at the advertising for Arkansas-Pine Bluff and that was all you had to base your opinion on you would think that it has very diverse student population. The reality is roughly 93% of students self-identify as black or African-American.

The school clearly wants to broaden its enrollment but isn't experiencing much success in the effort.

Right, it’s the same as Delaware State up here. It wants you to think it’s this diverse school, and when compared to other MEAC members, it kind of is...but it’s not *that* diverse.

They definetly have some struggles making the full separation from the HBC thing, as if leaving MEAC means they are no longer one of those schools. They could have been in Big South by now. But they seem to not want to budge for anything less than CAA.

Some of these schools are truly cutting themselves off from big chunks of the market. But, I don’t think of ASun, Big South, and Southland as slumming it...can’t say I feel the same way as MEAC these days, or parts of SWAC.

(07-09-2018 01:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:34 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

If you just looked at the advertising for Arkansas-Pine Bluff and that was all you had to base your opinion on you would think that it has very diverse student population. The reality is roughly 93% of students self-identify as black or African-American.

The school clearly wants to broaden its enrollment but isn't experiencing much success in the effort.

UAPB used to be in an all Arkansas conference in the NAIA. They used to be in the same conference as Little Rock and UCA. For them to move over to the Southland themselves would not be a problem. It would give them more of a tv Presences that they never had. Grambling and Southern games on NBC have been ratings for NBC since they were like the only game played mainly on Thanksgiving. Florida A&M VS Bethune-Cookman have been one of the best tv ratings for the MEAC.

They joined the AIC in 1970 and left in 1972. They left to pursue Division II membership. They went back to the NAIA and took another spin at the AIC 1985 and left in 1987 to be an NAIA independent. UAPB never considered it a fit. They basically got pushed into joining the first time as part of the UA System take over and quickly left.

(07-09-2018 01:36 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:34 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

If you just looked at the advertising for Arkansas-Pine Bluff and that was all you had to base your opinion on you would think that it has very diverse student population. The reality is roughly 93% of students self-identify as black or African-American.

The school clearly wants to broaden its enrollment but isn't experiencing much success in the effort.

Right, it’s the same as Delaware State up here. It wants you to think it’s this diverse school, and when compared to other MEAC members, it kind of is...but it’s not *that* diverse.

They definetly have some struggles making the full separation from the HBC thing, as if leaving MEAC means they are no longer one of those schools. They could have been in Big South by now. But they seem to not want to budge for anything less than CAA.

Some of these schools are truly cutting themselves off from big chunks of the market. But, I don’t think of ASun, Big South, and Southland as slumming it...can’t say I feel the same way as MEAC these days, or parts of SWAC.

It seems that HBCU's struggle to gain diversity unless they are in a metro where they can attract people to evening professional programs (undergrad and post) or they have a professional school like law, medicine, or veterinary medicine.

(07-09-2018 01:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 01:36 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:34 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 10:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I get the impression a lot of the MEAC and SWAC schools drink too much of their kool-aid and feel superior to a lot of these schools in other conferences; their self-importance from their legacy and uniqueness something that makes them greater to schools in these other conferences. That they were so important at one time, and since legacy is like a currency in higher ed, you have some blocs in the state houses, the board of regents, or inner ring of high profile alumni who refuse to come to terms with modernity and its bitter realities. Oh, the irony of schools that couldn’t be like others, but now can yet choose not to...

But I can understand some reservations for certain conference alternatives. A-Sun is a feeder. Southland is becoming smaller and private...it’s not helping that you have members like SFA, SHSU, and Lamar looking to find a way out. Its better parts would rather be done with it...not the best sell.

If you just looked at the advertising for Arkansas-Pine Bluff and that was all you had to base your opinion on you would think that it has very diverse student population. The reality is roughly 93% of students self-identify as black or African-American.

The school clearly wants to broaden its enrollment but isn't experiencing much success in the effort.

Right, it’s the same as Delaware State up here. It wants you to think it’s this diverse school, and when compared to other MEAC members, it kind of is...but it’s not *that* diverse.

They definetly have some struggles making the full separation from the HBC thing, as if leaving MEAC means they are no longer one of those schools. They could have been in Big South by now. But they seem to not want to budge for anything less than CAA.

Some of these schools are truly cutting themselves off from big chunks of the market. But, I don’t think of ASun, Big South, and Southland as slumming it...can’t say I feel the same way as MEAC these days, or parts of SWAC.

It seems that HBCU's struggle to gain diversity unless they are in a metro where they can attract people to evening professional programs (undergrad and post) or they have a professional school like law, medicine, or veterinary medicine.

Jackson State, Hampton U. Norfolk State and some others like that do have more of a diverse student population. Jackson State, I think, leads the way. They are smack dab in the middle of the SBC footprint which does bring in a good size population base, and recruiting grounds for good football players in the state. Southland Conference could split in two with the east schools of Arkansas and Louisiana could form a new conference. The Texas Southland could form a new FCS version of the SWC.

Southland
Nicholls
SE Louisiana
McNeese State
NW La. State
New Orleans
UCA
Southern U.
Grambling State
Jackson State
Arkansas Tech D2 call up
UAPB
Delta State D2 Call up
Christian Brothers D2 call up
SE Oklahoma State D2 call up
12 football/14 allsports

New SWC:
Incarnate Word
Abilene Christian
Sam Houston State
SFA
Texas A&M-CC
Lamar
Tarleton State
West Texas A&M
Commerce
Kingsville
Midwestern State
Central Oklahoma
Cameron
Angelo State
Texas Southern
Prairie View A&M

SWAC could look like this:
Alabama State
Alcorn State
Mississippi Valley State
Alabama A&M
Tuskegee
Bethune-Cookman
Florida A&M
Albany State
Fort Valley State
Lane
South Carolina State
Augusta or Columbus State (non-HBCU school)
Benedict
Morehouse

MEAC:
Choppin State
Delaware State
Howard
Maryland-ES
Morgan State
Norfolk State
UNC-A&T
UNC-Central
Bowie State
Fayetteville State
Virginia State
Winston-Salem State
Kentucky State
Central State-Ohio
West Virginia State

The conferences would look compact after reforming. The MEAc would split in half which I think the caused for the defections in recent years.

And there it is. Another thread that had absolutely nothing to with D2 now includes another long fantasy list of D2 call-ups. Some of those D2 schools are at the D2 minimum of 10 sports and/or have dropped sports in the last 4 years.

When Jackson State can bring their own revenue to the Sun Belt without reducing the share SBC members currently get and be a national highly competitive all-sports program, then they might get some consideration from the SBC.

(07-09-2018 05:45 PM)AZcats Wrote:  And there it is. Another thread that had absolutely nothing to with D2 now includes another long fantasy list of D2 call-ups. Some of those D2 schools are at the D2 minimum of 10 sports and/or have dropped sports in the last 4 years.

When Jackson State can bring their own revenue to the Sun Belt without reducing the share SBC members currently get and be a national highly competitive all-sports program, then they might get some consideration from the SBC.

What I am talking about when the lower level conferences not getting much money from tv deals and media rights? They have to reform into better compact conferences. MEAC tv deal right now does not cover the long travel as it is. They already lost Hampton U., Winston-Salem State and Savannah State. North Carolina A&T are looking to leave and Florida A&M came close to becoming an FBS school in the past.

(07-09-2018 05:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 05:45 PM)AZcats Wrote:  And there it is. Another thread that had absolutely nothing to with D2 now includes another long fantasy list of D2 call-ups. Some of those D2 schools are at the D2 minimum of 10 sports and/or have dropped sports in the last 4 years.

When Jackson State can bring their own revenue to the Sun Belt without reducing the share SBC members currently get and be a national highly competitive all-sports program, then they might get some consideration from the SBC.

What I am talking about when the lower level conferences not getting much money from tv deals and media rights? They have to reform into better compact conferences. MEAC tv deal right now does not cover the long travel as it is. They already lost Hampton U., Winston-Salem State and Savannah State. North Carolina A&T are looking to leave and Florida A&M came close to becoming an FBS school in the past.

So your solution to getting more money is to add 25 schools from D2 that already bring nothing to the table but more mouths to feed with the same amount of money?

You can't lose what you really didn't have; WSSU did not complete the reclassifying process and was never a full member. Some MEAC schools might be happy to see Hampton and Savannah State leaving since it means more money in their own pockets. The MEAC and some other conferences don't and never will get a substantial TV revenue that they can rely on; instead they will continue to rely on other resources in the same manner as they have for decades already. If they can't afford the costs of doing business in D1, they can move to D2 or D3 if they want to keep athletics.

Who is Choppin State?

Again, this thread had nothing to do with D2 and no mention of D2 until post #16.

Why would the Southland add more teams from D2 or the SWAC? I'm guessing if more teams got called up some schools would try to leave. If anyone wanted them.

Southern might be interested in the Southland, but how interested would the Southland be in adding any SWAC schools?