There won't be a split. The G5 vote with the P5 on issues that the P5 want and need to pass through NCAA regulation.

(07-13-2018 11:50 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:39 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  A school belongs in FBS if they have the institutional support and means for FBS football.

And can do it without having a subsidy greater than 10%, but preferably without any subsidies at all.

Yes, the soaking of students has to be a major concern here.

(07-13-2018 09:38 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  We've talked about how the G5 is putting itself out on a limb to compete at the highest level but when does it make sense from the institutional perspective to be playing at the top level.

1) A system wide budget of 1 billion dollars. This is the UMass example where a school is simply too big to be toiling in FCS.

2) Enrollment greater than 25,000. This is school is too big for FCS.

3) A 20,000 seater. The biggest question for playing in FBS for a lot of schools is having an adequate facility.

The only school I can think of that meets either 1) or 2) & has a 20k seater is Delaware. This is outside the Ivy League of course.

The Montana's and Dakota schools don't have the budget or enrollments to justify competing at the top level. The Texas FCS schools don't have the facility for it.

I fully support Delaware to the MAC. Maybe UMass even rethinks it's decision to go indie and joins as a full member? Heck JMU would be down! Throw in Northern Iowa and you got a nice 16 team Big MAC!

I don't know why I love the MAC so much. I legit want them to battle for the top G5 conference.

East: Buffalo, UMass, Delaware, James Madison

South: Ohio, Kent St, Bowling Green, Akron

North: Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU

West: Miami, Ball St, Northern Ill, Northern Iowa

(07-13-2018 10:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Let's see who is borderline. I will exclude the ones that put 20,000 in the stands but there are a few here that may be out on a limb. I will also put ones with a sub 200 million dollar endowment to make the list more realistic.

By student number:

Eastern Michigan 23,419 (endowment 67.2 mil)
Ball State 22,513 (endowment 193 mil)
Middle Tennessee 22,050 (endowment 58.9 mil)
Western Kentucky 20,277 (endowment 125.4 mil)
Northern Illinois 20,015 (endowment 74.7 mil)
Bowling Green 19,331 (endowment 148.1 mil)
Louisiana 17,519 (endowment 178.3 mil)
Coastal Carolina 10,663 (endowment 25.5 mil)
Louisiana-Monroe 8,854 (endowment 23.4 mil)

The question is what happens to these schools if the G5 realigns? Do they pull the plug at the FBS level?

Coastal and ULM are particularly vulnerable sitting in the SBC. If the MWC & CUSA decided to expand to 16 they could be on the street.

EMU is propped up by its board of directors but they are facing significant issues.

https://www.hustlebelt.com/2018/7/10/175...le-ix-2018

The MAC needs to realign, half the conference is in over its head. EMU, K-St, and Ball St would all be better off without FBS status.

(07-13-2018 07:51 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  There are 130 FBS teams this season. 65 of the teams reside in P5 conferences and Notre Dame. the other 65 are in G5 conferences and the other 5 independents.

At some point there is going to be an official split. But, I'm not sure the power conferences have enough votes right now to formally split from the G5's.

The G5 is hurting itself when they add another stupid school every year to FBS status. There are way too many FBS schools, need to cut some bottom feeder schools out, then the G5 talent and fanbases won't be spread out so thin. Keep beating the P5 schools and it will be hard for the p5 to separate from G5

(07-13-2018 09:38 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:38 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  We've talked about how the G5 is putting itself out on a limb to compete at the highest level but when does it make sense from the institutional perspective to be playing at the top level.

1) A system wide budget of 1 billion dollars. This is the UMass example where a school is simply too big to be toiling in FCS.

2) Enrollment greater than 25,000. This is school is too big for FCS.

3) A 20,000 seater. The biggest question for playing in FBS for a lot of schools is having an adequate facility.

The only school I can think of that meets either 1) or 2) & has a 20k seater is Delaware. This is outside the Ivy League of course.

The Montana's and Dakota schools don't have the budget or enrollments to justify competing at the top level. The Texas FCS schools don't have the facility for it.

I fully support Delaware to the MAC. Maybe UMass even rethinks it's decision to go indie and joins as a full member? Heck JMU would be down! Throw in Northern Iowa and you got a nice 16 team Big MAC!

I don't know why I love the MAC so much. I legit want them to battle for the top G5 conference.

East: Buffalo, UMass, Delaware, James Madison

South: Ohio, Kent St, Bowling Green, Akron

North: Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU

West: Miami, Ball St, Northern Ill, Northern Iowa

Noooo. The only way I would support more teams in the MAC is if we cut out current teams. Cut EMU, Ball St, Kent St, Bowling Green and add Marshal, JMU, Del, and UMASS.

(07-14-2018 11:20 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:51 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  There are 130 FBS teams this season. 65 of the teams reside in P5 conferences and Notre Dame. the other 65 are in G5 conferences and the other 5 independents.

At some point there is going to be an official split. But, I'm not sure the power conferences have enough votes right now to formally split from the G5's.

The G5 is hurting itself when they add another stupid school every year to FBS status. There are way too many FBS schools, need to cut some bottom feeder schools out, then the G5 talent and fanbases won't be spread out so thin. Keep beating the P5 schools and it will be hard for the p5 to separate from G5

The G5 really doesn't compete with the A5 for talent. There are only a few players they pull who have A5 offers. So really they compete with each other. Every additional G5 school thins out the talent and widens the gap between the A5 and G5.

Below are the move-ups since the IA/IAA realignment in 1982 that moved the Ivy League, Southland, Southern and Missouri Valley down to IAA and dropped IA from 130+ schools down to around 105. It includes all of the Sun Belt and CUSA except ULL, Rice, UTEP and Southern Miss.

MAC Akron 1987
USA Louisiana Tech 1989
MWC Nevada 1992
Sun Belt Arkansas State 1992
Sun Belt Louisiana-Monroe 1994
USA North Texas 1995
American Central Florida 1996
MWC Boise State 1996
Sun Belt Idaho 1997
USA Marshall 1998
MAC Buffalo 1999
USA Middle Tennessee 1999
American South Florida 2001
American Connecticut 2002
Sun Belt Troy State 2002
USA Florida Atlantic 2006
USA Florida International 2006
USA Western Kentucky 2009
Ind Massachusetts 2012
Sun Belt South Alabama 2012
Sun Belt Texas State 2012
USA Texas-San Antonio 2012
Sun Belt Georgia State 2013
USA Old Dominion 2014
Sun Belt Georgia Southern 2014
Sun Belt Appalachian State 2014
USA Charlotte 2015
Sun Belt Coastal Carolina 2017
USA Alabama-Birmingham 1996-2014, 2017
Ind Liberty 2018

(07-14-2018 11:27 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:38 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:38 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  We've talked about how the G5 is putting itself out on a limb to compete at the highest level but when does it make sense from the institutional perspective to be playing at the top level.

1) A system wide budget of 1 billion dollars. This is the UMass example where a school is simply too big to be toiling in FCS.

2) Enrollment greater than 25,000. This is school is too big for FCS.

3) A 20,000 seater. The biggest question for playing in FBS for a lot of schools is having an adequate facility.

The only school I can think of that meets either 1) or 2) & has a 20k seater is Delaware. This is outside the Ivy League of course.

The Montana's and Dakota schools don't have the budget or enrollments to justify competing at the top level. The Texas FCS schools don't have the facility for it.

I fully support Delaware to the MAC. Maybe UMass even rethinks it's decision to go indie and joins as a full member? Heck JMU would be down! Throw in Northern Iowa and you got a nice 16 team Big MAC!

I don't know why I love the MAC so much. I legit want them to battle for the top G5 conference.

East: Buffalo, UMass, Delaware, James Madison

South: Ohio, Kent St, Bowling Green, Akron

North: Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU

West: Miami, Ball St, Northern Ill, Northern Iowa

Noooo. The only way I would support more teams in the MAC is if we cut out current teams. Cut EMU, Ball St, Kent St, Bowling Green and add Marshal, JMU, Del, and UMASS.

Cut two EMU and one other and go to 14 with the 4 I mentioned. N Iowa would really help beef up the BBall side and is a solid FB program. 3 East and 1 West and no way Marshall is coming back. I think they like playing the KY and TN schools as well as the coastal schools.

Sacramento State. Enrollment over 30,000. A 21,195 seat stadium that’s easily expandable. System budget over $3 billion.

(07-14-2018 11:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  The G5 really doesn't compete with the A5 for talent. There are only a few players they pull who have A5 offers. So really they compete with each other. Every additional G5 school thins out the talent and widens the gap between the A5 and G5.

Interesting theory.

With Idaho returning to FCS, there are now 29 non-P5 FBS teams that were not in I-A/FBS in 1982, each with 85 football scholarships to offer in competition with the 36 non-P5 teams that have been in I-A/FBS since 1982.

That means that almost twice as many football scholarships are being given out to roughly the same size high school football talent pool, which means that non-P5 teams today, as a whole, are giving almost half of their football scholarships to athletes that would be in FCS or D-II or D-III if the number of non-P5 FBS teams was the same as it was in 1982.

(07-14-2018 11:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  The G5 really doesn't compete with the A5 for talent. There are only a few players they pull who have A5 offers. So really they compete with each other. Every additional G5 school thins out the talent and widens the gap between the A5 and G5.

Interesting theory.

With Idaho returning to FCS, there are now 29 non-P5 FBS teams that were not in I-A/FBS in 1982, each with 85 football scholarships to offer in competition with the 36 non-P5 teams that have been in I-A/FBS since 1982.

That means that almost twice as many football scholarships are being given out to roughly the same size high school football talent pool, which means that non-P5 teams today, as a whole, are giving almost half of their football scholarships to athletes that would be in FCS or D-II or D-III if the number of non-P5 FBS teams was the same as it was in 1982.

(07-14-2018 11:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-14-2018 11:20 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:51 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  There are 130 FBS teams this season. 65 of the teams reside in P5 conferences and Notre Dame. the other 65 are in G5 conferences and the other 5 independents.

At some point there is going to be an official split. But, I'm not sure the power conferences have enough votes right now to formally split from the G5's.

The G5 is hurting itself when they add another stupid school every year to FBS status. There are way too many FBS schools, need to cut some bottom feeder schools out, then the G5 talent and fanbases won't be spread out so thin. Keep beating the P5 schools and it will be hard for the p5 to separate from G5

The G5 really doesn't compete with the A5 for talent. There are only a few players they pull who have A5 offers. So really they compete with each other. Every additional G5 school thins out the talent and widens the gap between the A5 and G5.

Below are the move-ups since the IA/IAA realignment in 1982 that moved the Ivy League, Southland, Southern and Missouri Valley down to IAA and dropped IA from 130+ schools down to around 105. It includes all of the Sun Belt and CUSA except ULL, Rice, UTEP and Southern Miss.

MAC Akron 1987
USA Louisiana Tech 1989
MWC Nevada 1992
Sun Belt Arkansas State 1992
Sun Belt Louisiana-Monroe 1994
USA North Texas 1995
American Central Florida 1996
MWC Boise State 1996
Sun Belt Idaho 1997
USA Marshall 1998
MAC Buffalo 1999
USA Middle Tennessee 1999
American South Florida 2001
American Connecticut 2002
Sun Belt Troy State 2002
USA Florida Atlantic 2006
USA Florida International 2006
USA Western Kentucky 2009
Ind Massachusetts 2012
Sun Belt South Alabama 2012
Sun Belt Texas State 2012
USA Texas-San Antonio 2012
Sun Belt Georgia State 2013
USA Old Dominion 2014
Sun Belt Georgia Southern 2014
Sun Belt Appalachian State 2014
USA Charlotte 2015
Sun Belt Coastal Carolina 2017
USA Alabama-Birmingham 1996-2014, 2017
Ind Liberty 2018

North Texas falls into another category, the "Moved Back Up" group. We we've been playing football since 1913, and were part of the D1 before being forced down in I-AA. That is a very different history from most of the other programs on that list.

Lets look who have over 20,000 enrolled.

Big Sky:
Sacramento State
Portland State
Weber State
Northern Arizona
Big South: None
CAA:
Drexel
Towson
James Madison
Northeastern
MEAC:none
MVFC:
Missouri State
Illinois State
NEC:none
OVC:none
Patriot:
Boston U.
southern:none
Southland:
Sam Houston State
SWAC:none
AEC:
Stony Brook
A-sun:
Kennesaw State
A10:
George Mason
VCU
George Washington
Big West:
Fullerton State
Northridge State
Long Beacg State
UC-Davis
Uc-San Diego
UC-Irvine
UC-Santa Barbara
UC-Riverside
Cal. Poly-SLO
Horizon:
Illinois-Chicagoi
Milwaukee
IUPUI
Oakland
MAAC:None
MVC:
sqme as MVFC
Summit:none
West Coast:
BYU
WAC:
Utah Valley
UTRGV
None D1 schools:
San Francisco State
Cal. Poly-Pomona
CSU-LA
Wayne State, Michigan
Grand Valley State
Simon Fraser
Nova Southeastern
U. Texas-Dallas
Johns Hopkins
Hunter
NYU the largest over 40,000 students for a private school.
There are many between 15,000 to 19,999. They could go over 20,000 in a few years.

(07-14-2018 02:26 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  

(07-14-2018 11:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-14-2018 11:20 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:51 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  There are 130 FBS teams this season. 65 of the teams reside in P5 conferences and Notre Dame. the other 65 are in G5 conferences and the other 5 independents.

At some point there is going to be an official split. But, I'm not sure the power conferences have enough votes right now to formally split from the G5's.

The G5 is hurting itself when they add another stupid school every year to FBS status. There are way too many FBS schools, need to cut some bottom feeder schools out, then the G5 talent and fanbases won't be spread out so thin. Keep beating the P5 schools and it will be hard for the p5 to separate from G5

The G5 really doesn't compete with the A5 for talent. There are only a few players they pull who have A5 offers. So really they compete with each other. Every additional G5 school thins out the talent and widens the gap between the A5 and G5.

Below are the move-ups since the IA/IAA realignment in 1982 that moved the Ivy League, Southland, Southern and Missouri Valley down to IAA and dropped IA from 130+ schools down to around 105. It includes all of the Sun Belt and CUSA except ULL, Rice, UTEP and Southern Miss.

MAC Akron 1987
USA Louisiana Tech 1989
MWC Nevada 1992
Sun Belt Arkansas State 1992
Sun Belt Louisiana-Monroe 1994
USA North Texas 1995
American Central Florida 1996
MWC Boise State 1996
Sun Belt Idaho 1997
USA Marshall 1998
MAC Buffalo 1999
USA Middle Tennessee 1999
American South Florida 2001
American Connecticut 2002
Sun Belt Troy State 2002
USA Florida Atlantic 2006
USA Florida International 2006
USA Western Kentucky 2009
Ind Massachusetts 2012
Sun Belt South Alabama 2012
Sun Belt Texas State 2012
USA Texas-San Antonio 2012
Sun Belt Georgia State 2013
USA Old Dominion 2014
Sun Belt Georgia Southern 2014
Sun Belt Appalachian State 2014
USA Charlotte 2015
Sun Belt Coastal Carolina 2017
USA Alabama-Birmingham 1996-2014, 2017
Ind Liberty 2018

North Texas falls into another category, the "Moved Back Up" group. We we've been playing football since 1913, and were part of the D1 before being forced down in I-AA. That is a very different history from most of the other programs on that list.

Well 4 of the first 6 move-ups were Southland schools who got demoted in 1982. I don't think any of the others except Marshall and maybe Buffalo who dropped football in the early 70s were ever in the top division before. Southland members Lamar and UTA both dropped football after being demoted. UNT, LT, ASU and ULM moved back up. ULL never moved down. Only McNeese stayed continuously in IAA (Lamar has since added football back).

I would like to point out that appalachian State is the only school that was an Independent in FBS in the early days when D1 split in 2 for football. They are the only one so far moved back up. There are some that are targets for future expansion talks.

(07-13-2018 10:23 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Let's see who is borderline....

By student number:

Eastern Michigan 23,419 (endowment 67.2 mil)
Ball State 22,513 (endowment 193 mil)
Middle Tennessee 22,050 (endowment 58.9 mil)
Western Kentucky 20,277 (endowment 125.4 mil)
Northern Illinois 20,015 (endowment 74.7 mil)
Bowling Green 19,331 (endowment 148.1 mil)
Louisiana 17,519 (endowment 178.3 mil)
Coastal Carolina 10,663 (endowment 25.5 mil)
Louisiana-Monroe 8,854 (endowment 23.4 mil)

In bold are five out of your last seven MAC football champions. Why would either of these schools leave the MAC?

(07-14-2018 01:34 PM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  Sacramento State. Enrollment over 30,000. A 21,195 seat stadium that’s easily expandable. System budget over $3 billion.

Any plans to upgrade the Hornets Nest?

(07-14-2018 11:27 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:38 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 09:38 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  We've talked about how the G5 is putting itself out on a limb to compete at the highest level but when does it make sense from the institutional perspective to be playing at the top level.

1) A system wide budget of 1 billion dollars. This is the UMass example where a school is simply too big to be toiling in FCS.

2) Enrollment greater than 25,000. This is school is too big for FCS.

3) A 20,000 seater. The biggest question for playing in FBS for a lot of schools is having an adequate facility.

The only school I can think of that meets either 1) or 2) & has a 20k seater is Delaware. This is outside the Ivy League of course.

The Montana's and Dakota schools don't have the budget or enrollments to justify competing at the top level. The Texas FCS schools don't have the facility for it.

I fully support Delaware to the MAC. Maybe UMass even rethinks it's decision to go indie and joins as a full member? Heck JMU would be down! Throw in Northern Iowa and you got a nice 16 team Big MAC!

I don't know why I love the MAC so much. I legit want them to battle for the top G5 conference.

East: Buffalo, UMass, Delaware, James Madison

South: Ohio, Kent St, Bowling Green, Akron

North: Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU

West: Miami, Ball St, Northern Ill, Northern Iowa

Noooo. The only way I would support more teams in the MAC is if we cut out current teams. Cut EMU, Ball St, Kent St, Bowling Green and add Marshal, JMU, Del, and UMASS.

I think UMass' intentions for AAC have been made pretty public (some are not comfortable leaving A10 basketball), but if that doesn't work out, this would be a pretty damn fun football league.

WEST:
Akron
WMU
Miami (OH)
Ohio
CMU
NIU

EAST:
Toledo
Marshall
Buffalo
JMU
Delaware
UMass

(07-14-2018 01:48 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Interesting theory.

With Idaho returning to FCS, there are now 29 non-P5 FBS teams that were not in I-A/FBS in 1982, each with 85 football scholarships to offer in competition with the 36 non-P5 teams that have been in I-A/FBS since 1982.

That means that almost twice as many football scholarships are being given out to roughly the same size high school football talent pool, which means that non-P5 teams today, as a whole, are giving almost half of their football scholarships to athletes that would be in FCS or D-II or D-III if the number of non-P5 FBS teams was the same as it was in 1982.

In 1982, the scholarship limit was 95. It was lowered to 85 in 1992.

(07-14-2018 02:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-14-2018 02:26 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  

(07-14-2018 11:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-14-2018 11:20 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(07-13-2018 07:51 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  There are 130 FBS teams this season. 65 of the teams reside in P5 conferences and Notre Dame. the other 65 are in G5 conferences and the other 5 independents.

At some point there is going to be an official split. But, I'm not sure the power conferences have enough votes right now to formally split from the G5's.

The G5 is hurting itself when they add another stupid school every year to FBS status. There are way too many FBS schools, need to cut some bottom feeder schools out, then the G5 talent and fanbases won't be spread out so thin. Keep beating the P5 schools and it will be hard for the p5 to separate from G5

The G5 really doesn't compete with the A5 for talent. There are only a few players they pull who have A5 offers. So really they compete with each other. Every additional G5 school thins out the talent and widens the gap between the A5 and G5.

Below are the move-ups since the IA/IAA realignment in 1982 that moved the Ivy League, Southland, Southern and Missouri Valley down to IAA and dropped IA from 130+ schools down to around 105. It includes all of the Sun Belt and CUSA except ULL, Rice, UTEP and Southern Miss.

MAC Akron 1987
USA Louisiana Tech 1989
MWC Nevada 1992
Sun Belt Arkansas State 1992
Sun Belt Louisiana-Monroe 1994
USA North Texas 1995
American Central Florida 1996
MWC Boise State 1996
Sun Belt Idaho 1997
USA Marshall 1998
MAC Buffalo 1999
USA Middle Tennessee 1999
American South Florida 2001
American Connecticut 2002
Sun Belt Troy State 2002
USA Florida Atlantic 2006
USA Florida International 2006
USA Western Kentucky 2009
Ind Massachusetts 2012
Sun Belt South Alabama 2012
Sun Belt Texas State 2012
USA Texas-San Antonio 2012
Sun Belt Georgia State 2013
USA Old Dominion 2014
Sun Belt Georgia Southern 2014
Sun Belt Appalachian State 2014
USA Charlotte 2015
Sun Belt Coastal Carolina 2017
USA Alabama-Birmingham 1996-2014, 2017
Ind Liberty 2018

North Texas falls into another category, the "Moved Back Up" group. We we've been playing football since 1913, and were part of the D1 before being forced down in I-AA. That is a very different history from most of the other programs on that list.

Well 4 of the first 6 move-ups were Southland schools who got demoted in 1982. I don't think any of the others except Marshall and maybe Buffalo who dropped football in the early 70s were ever in the top division before. Southland members Lamar and UTA both dropped football after being demoted. UNT, LT, ASU and ULM moved back up. ULL never moved down. Only McNeese stayed continuously in IAA (Lamar has since added football back).

That is my point. Most of the teams on the list had no history in the top tier of college football. All of those teams being added has weakened the talent pool for programs outside of the power conferences, and increased the likelihood of a split. If all of those programs had not moved up to the FBS, we probably would not have such a heated arms race within the G5. Right now several G5 programs are building facilities, building athletic budgets, and developing new revenue streams so they can jockey for a better position on the college football landscape.