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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:50 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:46 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:38 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Man, the Big East is flourishing. They do need their non-Villanova brethren to go deeper in the tournament, but that league is just killing it in every other way. Very impressive.

Great move by the Big 12, too. Names like Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, and Creighton are a bigger deal than they were five years ago and should be able to draw some fans better than if this had started back then.

A few years ago, the Big East tried to get a challenge with the Pac-12, but it couldn't get off the ground because, supposedly, the two biggest brand names in Arizona and UCLA were not interested. That's their loss.

Yeah, the Big East has had a great last 3 years. Even with some bad luck in there.

I do think there's a chance there gets to be the perception that it's the big 1 and everyone else. Nova has 15 NCAA tourney wins in the last 5 years. The rest of the league has 16 wins combined. And that's with Xavier having 7 wins.

Except ... as was explained a few weeks ago, the Big East's top-to-bottom strength has been very strong, always in the top 4 of RPI and Sagarin the entire 5 years of its history.

You keep trying to denigrate the Big East, and I'll keep slapping it down, while laughing, OK? 03-lmfao

top to bottom strength doesn't mean that much though. To casual fans, all they care about is how good your top teams are. I mean SEC last year in football wasn't good, but folks think they were because Alabama and Georgia were so great.

Top to bottom, the Big East is really good. The league is averaging over half the league is making the tournament.

The top speaks for itself. Villanova is currently the premier program in the sport, with two out of three titles, including this year's team having one of the most dominant runs in years.

As I said, the other schools need to make deeper runs, but they are still doing very well. Xavier wasn't given a #1 seed out of charity. They earned it, in part by winning the regular season Big East title over the eventual national champions.

Branding wise, sure. The Big East has no "blue blood" teams. Fair or not, Villanova would have to rattle of four or five more titles to be accepted alongside Kansas, Duke, UNC, etc.

As a conference, though, in its new form and in its old form, I would argue that if there is such a thing as a blue blood league, the Big East is one of them with only the ACC, Big Ten, and maybe Big 12 as peers. (The SEC and Pac-12 are pretty elite more often than not but do not hold the same prestige as those leagues when it comes to hoops.)

If the Big East is going to get knocked for not having a UCLA, Kentucky, or other blue blood, there's very little the league can do about it. Gaining that kind of status takes decades to gain and decades to lose. Indiana hasn't won a title in 31 years but most still regard them as a blue blood. UCLA has won one of the past 43 national titles, none in the past 23. Conversely, UConn has won 4 titles in the past 20 years, but they aren't considered blue blood. Villanova? Two of the past 3 and 3 overall, the same number as Kansas, but they're not put in the same class.
07-25-2018 10:31 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #22
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:00 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:26 AM)stever20 Wrote:  You are drop down drunk if you really believe that no one things of Michigan St as being bigger than the Big East. Oh, and if you really think Indiana is the only Blue Blood in the Big Ten, then why is Michigan St the team that participates yearly in the champions classic, instead of Indiana.

To act like Michigan St refusing to participate in the Gavitt games is a meaningless thing to the Big East is ignorant.

Stever, you need to relax. No need to call anyone a drunk.

Under the terms of the contract, each Big East team would participate a minimum of six times, while each Big Ten program would take part a minimum of four times. Obviously, MSU has not participated yet, so that would mean - contractually - they would need to participate in the remaining four years in order to satisfy the agreement. If Michigan State truly wanted to avoid playing, I'm sure the B1G and Big East would be able to come to an agreement to satisfy the non-compliance by extending the deal an extra season or two, in order for Michigan State to fulfill the requirement. The B1G and Big East have a great relationship with one another, so I hardly believe that this will cause friction or animosity between the two leagues.

Also, the reason MSU has not been able to participate is due to their agreement with the Champions Classic (which takes place during the same week), which runs through 2019. So, conceivably, they would be able to play in 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023. Again, it is still manageable to satisfy all of the the requirements.

Michigan State has also played Providence, St. John's and DePaul in tournaments the past three seasons, so it's not like they are getting out of playing Big East teams altogether.
I could see the Big Ten instead of extending the current deal making it where it would go 10 games instead of 8. I think the Big Ten may want to see the impact of the 20 game season before they extend the Gavitt games.

The Champions Classic is going to get extended almost 100% certainly. Not really sure now with the schedule change why they can't do both? The Champions Classic will be this year on Nov 6. The Gavitt games are on Nov 12-16 week.
07-25-2018 10:34 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Online
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Post: #23
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:20 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Fine- forget the blue bloods label. If you ask anyone to name the top 5-6 programs right now, Michigan St would absolutely be in that group. Right now, they are the gold standard of the Big Ten.

And I totally disagree with you on the Big East not caring that MSU hasn't participated. They didn't do a challenge with the Pac 12 due to Arizona/UCLA not wanting to participate. The agreement for the Gavitt games was supposed to be with all 14 teams. From a perception side- it's a really bad look.

My past five years (no order): Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky, and Kansas. Michigan has been better overall in the tournament than Michigan State, IMO.

Mich St last 5 years has a final 4 and 2 elite 8's
Mich last 5 years has the title game appearance, but only 1 elite 8 and missed the tourney 1 year.
So no.

Michigan made the NCAA Championship in 2013 and 2018, Elite Eight in 2014, Sweet 16 in 2017. Michigan State, while making the Final Four in 2015, hasn't escaped the second round in three consecutive years. The dual championship appearances in the time frame put Michigan over them, IMO.

Regardless, the B1G has not won a championship in basketball since 2000. That's a far bigger issue for them than whether Michigan or Michigan State has been the better basketball program.
07-25-2018 10:47 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #24
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:20 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Fine- forget the blue bloods label. If you ask anyone to name the top 5-6 programs right now, Michigan St would absolutely be in that group. Right now, they are the gold standard of the Big Ten.

And I totally disagree with you on the Big East not caring that MSU hasn't participated. They didn't do a challenge with the Pac 12 due to Arizona/UCLA not wanting to participate. The agreement for the Gavitt games was supposed to be with all 14 teams. From a perception side- it's a really bad look.

My past five years (no order): Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky, and Kansas. Michigan has been better overall in the tournament than Michigan State, IMO.

Mich St last 5 years has a final 4 and 2 elite 8's
Mich last 5 years has the title game appearance, but only 1 elite 8 and missed the tourney 1 year.
So no.

Michigan made the NCAA Championship in 2013 and 2018, Elite Eight in 2014, Sweet 16 in 2017. Michigan State, while making the Final Four in 2015, hasn't escaped the second round in three consecutive years. The dual championship appearances in the time frame put Michigan over them, IMO.

Regardless, the B1G has not won a championship in basketball since 2000. That's a far bigger issue for them than whether Michigan or Michigan State has been the better basketball program.
When I see 5 years- I think 5 seasons. 2013 isn't a part of that any longer. In the last 5 seasons, Michigan has missed the tourney one year, and been in first 4 another year.
07-25-2018 10:52 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:52 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:20 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Fine- forget the blue bloods label. If you ask anyone to name the top 5-6 programs right now, Michigan St would absolutely be in that group. Right now, they are the gold standard of the Big Ten.

And I totally disagree with you on the Big East not caring that MSU hasn't participated. They didn't do a challenge with the Pac 12 due to Arizona/UCLA not wanting to participate. The agreement for the Gavitt games was supposed to be with all 14 teams. From a perception side- it's a really bad look.

My past five years (no order): Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky, and Kansas. Michigan has been better overall in the tournament than Michigan State, IMO.

Mich St last 5 years has a final 4 and 2 elite 8's
Mich last 5 years has the title game appearance, but only 1 elite 8 and missed the tourney 1 year.
So no.

Michigan made the NCAA Championship in 2013 and 2018, Elite Eight in 2014, Sweet 16 in 2017. Michigan State, while making the Final Four in 2015, hasn't escaped the second round in three consecutive years. The dual championship appearances in the time frame put Michigan over them, IMO.

Regardless, the B1G has not won a championship in basketball since 2000. That's a far bigger issue for them than whether Michigan or Michigan State has been the better basketball program.
When I see 5 years- I think 5 seasons. 2013 isn't a part of that any longer. In the last 5 seasons, Michigan has missed the tourney one year, and been in first 4 another year.

Dang it they're both really freaking good. Michigan State has won two titles and has been to the Final Four 68 times under Izzo. Michigan under Beilein is once again as intimidating a team to play in college basketball as they were back in the 80's through the mid-90's.

My school sucks at basketball and hasn't been to the tournament since 2000. 03-hissyfit
07-25-2018 11:34 AM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
This leaves no doubt the P5 sees the Big East as a P6 in basketball. The Big Ten and Big XII proved it.
07-25-2018 11:45 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  It'll be interesting with the Gavitt games if the Big Ten flagship team ever participates(Michigan St). The fact they never have is embarassing for the Big East.

03-lmfao

01-wingedeagle

03-lmfao

so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door. Are you sure you don't mean Wisconsin or Michigan or Ohio State?

2018 Michigan
2015 Michigan STate, Wisconsin
2014 Wisconsin
2013 Michigan

(07-25-2018 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  top to bottom strength doesn't mean that much though. To casual fans, all they care about is how good your top teams are. I mean SEC last year in football wasn't good, but folks think they were because Alabama and Georgia were so great.

??????

Our top team has 2 national championships in the last 3 years.

You can maybe make a case point that the rest of the league is underperforming in the tournament. But you're really grasping at straws here, Stever.
07-25-2018 11:45 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Online
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Post: #28
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:52 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:20 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Fine- forget the blue bloods label. If you ask anyone to name the top 5-6 programs right now, Michigan St would absolutely be in that group. Right now, they are the gold standard of the Big Ten.

And I totally disagree with you on the Big East not caring that MSU hasn't participated. They didn't do a challenge with the Pac 12 due to Arizona/UCLA not wanting to participate. The agreement for the Gavitt games was supposed to be with all 14 teams. From a perception side- it's a really bad look.

My past five years (no order): Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky, and Kansas. Michigan has been better overall in the tournament than Michigan State, IMO.

Mich St last 5 years has a final 4 and 2 elite 8's
Mich last 5 years has the title game appearance, but only 1 elite 8 and missed the tourney 1 year.
So no.

Michigan made the NCAA Championship in 2013 and 2018, Elite Eight in 2014, Sweet 16 in 2017. Michigan State, while making the Final Four in 2015, hasn't escaped the second round in three consecutive years. The dual championship appearances in the time frame put Michigan over them, IMO.

Regardless, the B1G has not won a championship in basketball since 2000. That's a far bigger issue for them than whether Michigan or Michigan State has been the better basketball program.
When I see 5 years- I think 5 seasons. 2013 isn't a part of that any longer. In the last 5 seasons, Michigan has missed the tourney one year, and been in first 4 another year.

Arguing over whether Michigan or Michigan State is better is not really a big deal, mostly because Michigan State has not participated in the games yet is not a big deal. Like I said, they have played Providence, DePaul and St. Johns already the past three seasons, and they would still be able to play four times over the next four years in the scheduling agreement.

But, if there was a way to proclaim that the Big East getting a scheduling agreement with the Big 12 was actually not good, you would definitely be able to find one... 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2018 12:01 PM by GoldenWarrior11.)
07-25-2018 11:59 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #29
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:50 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:46 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 09:38 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Man, the Big East is flourishing. They do need their non-Villanova brethren to go deeper in the tournament, but that league is just killing it in every other way. Very impressive.

Great move by the Big 12, too. Names like Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier, and Creighton are a bigger deal than they were five years ago and should be able to draw some fans better than if this had started back then.

A few years ago, the Big East tried to get a challenge with the Pac-12, but it couldn't get off the ground because, supposedly, the two biggest brand names in Arizona and UCLA were not interested. That's their loss.

Yeah, the Big East has had a great last 3 years. Even with some bad luck in there.

I do think there's a chance there gets to be the perception that it's the big 1 and everyone else. Nova has 15 NCAA tourney wins in the last 5 years. The rest of the league has 16 wins combined. And that's with Xavier having 7 wins.

Except ... as was explained a few weeks ago, the Big East's top-to-bottom strength has been very strong, always in the top 4 of RPI and Sagarin the entire 5 years of its history.

You keep trying to denigrate the Big East, and I'll keep slapping it down, while laughing, OK? 03-lmfao

top to bottom strength doesn't mean that much though. To casual fans, all they care about is how good your top teams are. I mean SEC last year in football wasn't good, but folks think they were because Alabama and Georgia were so great.

03-lmfao

So, Big East is strong top to bottom, and it's strong at the top (national titles recently) but .... somehow they don't quite hit the mark on what matters??

I guess next post you will claim Big East isn't strong because positions 7 and 8 are truly what matter and we are weak there? 03-lmfao

BTW, the SEC was good last year. By Massey and Sagarin it was the #3 conference. That's strong. Now yes, it's not #1, which is where we all expect the SEC to be. But don't confuse a 'weak' year by ultra-high SEC standards to mean 'weak' in an objective sense.
07-25-2018 12:01 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #30
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  It'll be interesting with the Gavitt games if the Big Ten flagship team ever participates(Michigan St). The fact they never have is embarassing for the Big East.

03-lmfao

01-wingedeagle

03-lmfao

so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip .... 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2018 12:07 PM by quo vadis.)
07-25-2018 12:06 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 11:59 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:52 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 10:20 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  My past five years (no order): Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky, and Kansas. Michigan has been better overall in the tournament than Michigan State, IMO.

Mich St last 5 years has a final 4 and 2 elite 8's
Mich last 5 years has the title game appearance, but only 1 elite 8 and missed the tourney 1 year.
So no.

Michigan made the NCAA Championship in 2013 and 2018, Elite Eight in 2014, Sweet 16 in 2017. Michigan State, while making the Final Four in 2015, hasn't escaped the second round in three consecutive years. The dual championship appearances in the time frame put Michigan over them, IMO.

Regardless, the B1G has not won a championship in basketball since 2000. That's a far bigger issue for them than whether Michigan or Michigan State has been the better basketball program.
When I see 5 years- I think 5 seasons. 2013 isn't a part of that any longer. In the last 5 seasons, Michigan has missed the tourney one year, and been in first 4 another year.

Arguing over whether Michigan or Michigan State is better is not really a big deal, mostly because Michigan State has not participated in the games yet is not a big deal. Like I said, they have played Providence, DePaul and St. Johns already the past three seasons, and they would still be able to play four times over the next four years in the scheduling agreement.

But, if there was a way to proclaim that the Big East getting a scheduling agreement with the Big 12 was actually not good, you would definitely be able to find one... 07-coffee3

If Michigan St never participated in the games, would you say that's not a big deal at all? Because I just totally disagree with you on that. You have a program that I think a lot of folks think is the top team from the Big Ten. For them to avoid participating in it sure as hell isn't a good look.
07-25-2018 12:10 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 12:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:43 AM)stever20 Wrote:  It'll be interesting with the Gavitt games if the Big Ten flagship team ever participates(Michigan St). The fact they never have is embarassing for the Big East.

03-lmfao

01-wingedeagle

03-lmfao

so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip .... 07-coffee3

ahh yes- the dumb **** fudging of numbers. Why would you go 12 and 8? Oh that's right in 2009 and 2010 Michigan St made the final 4. I could see that even before I looked it up to confirm. So it's 1999-2008 4 times. 2009-18 3 times.
07-25-2018 12:15 PM
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Big Frog II Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
This is a great challenge. Jamie is familiar with most of these schools. Should be fun.
07-25-2018 12:25 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 01:05 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Neither league showing signs of expanding to 20 games.

There's a reason for that.

The reason is that each of those leagues, the Big East and Big 12, has 10 teams, and they already play a double round-robin in basketball, which is 18 conference games. To play 20 or more, each team would have to play some of their conference-mates at least 3 times in the same regular season.
07-25-2018 12:31 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 12:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  03-lmfao

01-wingedeagle

03-lmfao

so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip .... 07-coffee3

ahh yes- the dumb **** fudging of numbers. Why would you go 12 and 8? Oh that's right in 2009 and 2010 Michigan St made the final 4. I could see that even before I looked it up to confirm. So it's 1999-2008 4 times. 2009-18 3 times.

OK, last 10 years is a nice round number.

Michigan STate, 3 Final Fours
Wisconsin 2 Final Fours (2014, 15)
Michigan 2 Final Fours (2013, 18)
Ohio State 1 Final Four (2012)

So yes, 3 is more than 2, but "Big Ten without Michigan State" isn't comparable to "PAC without Arizona and UCLA."
07-25-2018 03:26 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #36
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 03:26 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 12:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip .... 07-coffee3

ahh yes- the dumb **** fudging of numbers. Why would you go 12 and 8? Oh that's right in 2009 and 2010 Michigan St made the final 4. I could see that even before I looked it up to confirm. So it's 1999-2008 4 times. 2009-18 3 times.

OK, last 10 years is a nice round number.

Michigan STate, 3 Final Fours
Wisconsin 2 Final Fours (2014, 15)
Michigan 2 Final Fours (2013, 18)
Ohio State 1 Final Four (2012)

So yes, 3 is more than 2, but "Big Ten without Michigan State" isn't comparable to "PAC without Arizona and UCLA."

elite 8's last 20 seasons
Arizona- 6
Oregon- 4
UCLA- 3
USC/Stanford- 1 each

So it's actually a very apt comparison. Arizona and Michigan St very similar.
07-25-2018 03:38 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 12:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  03-lmfao

01-wingedeagle

03-lmfao

so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip .... 07-coffee3

ahh yes- the dumb **** fudging of numbers. Why would you go 12 and 8? Oh that's right in 2009 and 2010 Michigan St made the final 4. I could see that even before I looked it up to confirm. So it's 1999-2008 4 times. 2009-18 3 times.

There's no fudging, my numbers are accurate:

MSU had a 12-year period where they want to 6 Final 4s, but since then, they have fallen off pretty dramatically, only one F4 in the past 8 seasons.

Here's another number: Since winning the title in 2000, 18 long years ago, Izzo has only won a single Final 4 game. Two of the three wins he's had in the Final 4 came during the Clinton Administration. He's 1-5 since then.

Like it or not, that's the way it has been. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2018 04:05 PM by quo vadis.)
07-25-2018 04:02 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
MSU is a top program but I doubt the average fan realizes they haven't played in the gavitt games yet.(except of course some MSU fans. if the even know the Gavitt games are a thing)
07-25-2018 08:28 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #39
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 04:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 12:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-25-2018 08:53 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so you think it's fine that Michigan St has never participated in it? What's the difference in that and what the Pac 12 did reportedly where they wanted to do the challenge with Arizona and UCLA never participating? The Big East rightly said FU to that.

Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip .... 07-coffee3

ahh yes- the dumb **** fudging of numbers. Why would you go 12 and 8? Oh that's right in 2009 and 2010 Michigan St made the final 4. I could see that even before I looked it up to confirm. So it's 1999-2008 4 times. 2009-18 3 times.

There's no fudging, my numbers are accurate:

MSU had a 12-year period where they want to 6 Final 4s, but since then, they have fallen off pretty dramatically, only one F4 in the past 8 seasons.

Here's another number: Since winning the title in 2000, 18 long years ago, Izzo has only won a single Final 4 game. Two of the three wins he's had in the Final 4 came during the Clinton Administration. He's 1-5 since then.

Like it or not, that's the way it has been. 07-coffee3

yeah and in the middle 2 years of the period they went to the final 4 both years. So of course you want to put that in the earlier section when they make your case look better- even though it makes it 12/8 in years. When if you do it 10-10- it looks a whole hell of a lot different. The final 4 years are 99, 00, 01, 05, 09, 10, and 15.

He had a period from 2009-15 where he made the final 4 in 3 of the 7 years.

Michigan St to the casual fan is the Big Ten, even over Michigan. Indiana right now isn't even a thought You can make the case that Michigan St shouldn't be. But the fact is with Izzo they are. You see more stuff about Izzo and Michigan St than the rest of the Big Ten.
07-25-2018 10:19 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Big East/BXII Challenge
(07-25-2018 08:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  MSU is a top program but I doubt the average fan realizes they haven't played in the gavitt games yet.(except of course some MSU fans. if the even know the Gavitt games are a thing)

I follow this stuff as closely as anyone and had no idea that Michigan State hasn't played in the Gavitt Games until I saw this thread. My general overarching thought: IDGAF. It's a good early season event that has already put together several non-conference matchups that wouldn't have occurred otherwise (e.g. Maryland-Georgetown, Illinois-DePaul, etc.). The fact that Michigan State hasn't played in it yet is completely and utterly meaningless to the success of the event. This wasn't ever intended to be a comprehensive challenge like the Big Ten/ACC Challenge.
07-25-2018 11:56 PM
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