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Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
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debragga Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-04-2018 01:40 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree about the WAC vs the Summit

But I do have to set you straight on ULM vs Chicago State ULM is not Chicago State. ULM actually has a credible football team and decent basketball too. They do more with less. They're probably bowling and sending their basketball team to the post season next year. It will be their fourth trip in 5 years to postseason basketball and their second in six years in football.. They do more in the big dollar sports with an athletic budget of 14 million a year than Texas State does with an athletic budget over twice that (sorry - I couldn't resist - I know its your ADs fault - I hope you get rid of him and Withers too). Texas State did finish above ULM once since joining the Belt in mens basketball. In football, ULM is 3-2 vs Texas State. I actually think that Texas State should hire ULM's AD, who apparently can conjure up miracles out of no money and subpar facilties. Imagine what he could do in San Marcos with a real budget. I actually respect ULM. They make it work. Give them a budget of 6 million and they'll find a way to make that work too. Lord only knows how they do it. Quite frankly if USA needed a new AD, ULM would be the first place I'd look for a replacement. Because that's a really well managed Athletic Department.

ULM's budget constraints are only an issue to the extent that it prevents them from being competitive. They're plenty competitive. Heck in the last 11 season they have 4 P5 wins including a win at Alabama. Are they a premier program. Nope. Are they the bottom program. Not in the Belt. And they wouldn't be the bottom team in CUSA or the MAC or the MWC either.

Chicago State is the absolutely worst program in all of D1 in the last 4 years. Here's the D1 wins

2017-18....1
2016-17....2
2015-16....1
2014-15....5
2013-14....11

ULM won 67 D1 games during the last 5 seasons. Chicago State won 20. Chicago State crushes the conference's RPI. Absolutely crushes it. That's two games that even if a tournament seeking team beats by 20 points, they'll still drop. And that's another reason why Denver is probably better off in the Summit. There aren't any hopeless teams in that league.

04-rock
08-04-2018 02:27 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-04-2018 09:34 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UMKC can aspire for the MVC all they want but that isn't going to bring an invitation their way. If the Summit expressed interest they'd be foolish not to go back.

UMKC AD has a tough task ahead. Fans believe they belong in AAC.
http://umkcroos.proboards.com/thread/1089/where-belong
08-04-2018 04:35 PM
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puck swami Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
As a DU fan, I will say that I prefer the Summit to the WAC (as it was when DU left) or the Sun Belt, but in all honesty, the differences are relatively minor ones. All three leagues lack geographic proximity and real familiarity for the local audiences here in Denver, so none of the teams were much of a draw in all three leagues. And even if DU leaves the Summit someday for the fellow small privates of the WCC, I don't know if fans here will care very much for that league either, outside of BYU and Gonzaga, who will draw fans anywhere.

The Summit has been a very good league from a competitive standpoint, especially in basketball. The downside of course, is that DU is still isolated in this league, which is a problem in pretty much all the conferences where DU plays, except for skiing. This means that you don't have the rivalries that exists with other schools who have geographic proximity to stoke the fires. The hope now is that with North Dakota joining the conference this year that DU can carry over the 60+ years of hockey rivalry with UND into other sports. Omaha also has been a competitive challenge for DU in a number of sports (hockey, hoops, soccer) but the DU fans aren't yet rabid about Omaha, who have not been D-I long enough to build that level of hatred all rivalries need...

The WAC was pretty fun the year DU played in it in 2012-2013, but the conference it eventually became would probably not excite fans in Denver today. I respect (and envy) the job GCU did in building a basketball program that draws 6K per game out of nowhere, but I do know that the for-profit nature of the school really did ruffle a lot of institutional feathers when Denver was thinking about leaving the WAC. Chicago State was also a dumpster fire at that time (broke+scandal ridden) and that bothered Denver people, too. NMSU and Seattle were both very respected peers here, and UVU (with its very low graduation rate) was viewed with suspicion. All in all, the Summit felt like a much safer destination/leap at the time for DU.

The Sun Belt was an excellent league competitively when DU played there, but again, the geographic reality and sports mix differences eventually grated on everyone when Denver was there, both here and in the rest of the league. Those SBC schools had little identification here in Denver, and I'm sure few were very interested in seeing Denver play around the South.

Denver is a tough, oversaturated sports market for a small private school, where most of the DU students (and many of the state's residents) are from out of state and didn't grow up cheering for the Pioneers. Competing with eight pro teams here (NFL,MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS, NLL, MLL and ECHL/AHL), and four larger public D-I schools within an hours' drive (CU, CSU, Air Force and UNC) and all those ski areas is no picnic, either. Fans in Denver mostly would like to see DU play schools like Colorado, Colorado State, Wyoming, Air Force, New Mexico, Nebraska, Utah or Utah State, but games with those schools these days are pretty rare, given all those schools are already in larger leagues and DU is a private with no football to offer. DU fans also turn out for hockey and lacrosse in greater numbers than hoops, and many of the powerhouse brands in those sports draw very well here, too.

All in all, if DU were ever to get really good in basketball, the MWC or the Big East would be the best options DU could hope for as an all-sports conference, but those are pipe dreams for DU right now...
08-04-2018 08:53 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-04-2018 08:53 PM)puck swami Wrote:  As a DU fan, I will say that I prefer the Summit to the WAC (as it was when DU left) or the Sun Belt, but in all honesty, the differences are relatively minor ones. All three leagues lack geographic proximity and real familiarity for the local audiences here in Denver, so none of the teams were much of a draw in all three leagues. And even if DU leaves the Summit someday for the fellow small privates of the WCC, I don't know if fans here will care very much for that league either, outside of BYU and Gonzaga, who will draw fans anywhere.

The Summit has been a very good league from a competitive standpoint, especially in basketball. The downside of course, is that DU is still isolated in this league, which is a problem in pretty much all the conferences where DU plays, except for skiing. This means that you don't have the rivalries that exists with other schools who have geographic proximity to stoke the fires. The hope now is that with North Dakota joining the conference this year that DU can carry over the 60+ years of hockey rivalry with UND into other sports. Omaha also has been a competitive challenge for DU in a number of sports (hockey, hoops, soccer) but the DU fans aren't yet rabid about Omaha, who have not been D-I long enough to build that level of hatred all rivalries need...

The WAC was pretty fun the year DU played in it in 2012-2013, but the conference it eventually became would probably not excite fans in Denver today. I respect (and envy) the job GCU did in building a basketball program that draws 6K per game out of nowhere, but I do know that the for-profit nature of the school really did ruffle a lot of institutional feathers when Denver was thinking about leaving the WAC. Chicago State was also a dumpster fire at that time (broke+scandal ridden) and that bothered Denver people, too. NMSU and Seattle were both very respected peers here, and UVU (with its very low graduation rate) was viewed with suspicion. All in all, the Summit felt like a much safer destination/leap at the time for DU.

The Sun Belt was an excellent league competitively when DU played there, but again, the geographic reality and sports mix differences eventually grated on everyone when Denver was there, both here and in the rest of the league. Those SBC schools had little identification here in Denver, and I'm sure few were very interested in seeing Denver play around the South.

Denver is a tough, oversaturated sports market for a small private school, where most of the DU students (and many of the state's residents) are from out of state and didn't grow up cheering for the Pioneers. Competing with eight pro teams here (NFL,MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS, NLL, MLL and ECHL/AHL), and four larger public D-I schools within an hours' drive (CU, CSU, Air Force and UNC) and all those ski areas is no picnic, either. Fans in Denver mostly would like to see DU play schools like Colorado, Colorado State, Wyoming, Air Force, New Mexico, Nebraska, Utah or Utah State, but games with those schools these days are pretty rare, given all those schools are already in larger leagues and DU is a private with no football to offer. DU fans also turn out for hockey and lacrosse in greater numbers than hoops, and many of the powerhouse brands in those sports draw very well here, too.

All in all, if DU were ever to get really good in basketball, the MWC or the Big East would be the best options DU could hope for as an all-sports conference, but those are pipe dreams for DU right now...

Thanks for your perspective. I agree on the Belt and Denver. I don't think there's 1 ounce of bad blood on either side between the Belt and Denver. Utah State got a MWC bid instead of joining the Belt, NMSU left, and then Denver and the Belt were kind of stuck.
08-05-2018 10:57 AM
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PDNJ Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-04-2018 08:53 PM)puck swami Wrote:  As a DU fan, I will say that I prefer the Summit to the WAC (as it was when DU left) or the Sun Belt, but in all honesty, the differences are relatively minor ones. All three leagues lack geographic proximity and real familiarity for the local audiences here in Denver, so none of the teams were much of a draw in all three leagues. And even if DU leaves the Summit someday for the fellow small privates of the WCC, I don't know if fans here will care very much for that league either, outside of BYU and Gonzaga, who will draw fans anywhere.

The Summit has been a very good league from a competitive standpoint, especially in basketball. The downside of course, is that DU is still isolated in this league, which is a problem in pretty much all the conferences where DU plays, except for skiing. This means that you don't have the rivalries that exists with other schools who have geographic proximity to stoke the fires. The hope now is that with North Dakota joining the conference this year that DU can carry over the 60+ years of hockey rivalry with UND into other sports. Omaha also has been a competitive challenge for DU in a number of sports (hockey, hoops, soccer) but the DU fans aren't yet rabid about Omaha, who have not been D-I long enough to build that level of hatred all rivalries need...

The WAC was pretty fun the year DU played in it in 2012-2013, but the conference it eventually became would probably not excite fans in Denver today. I respect (and envy) the job GCU did in building a basketball program that draws 6K per game out of nowhere, but I do know that the for-profit nature of the school really did ruffle a lot of institutional feathers when Denver was thinking about leaving the WAC. Chicago State was also a dumpster fire at that time (broke+scandal ridden) and that bothered Denver people, too. NMSU and Seattle were both very respected peers here, and UVU (with its very low graduation rate) was viewed with suspicion. All in all, the Summit felt like a much safer destination/leap at the time for DU.

The Sun Belt was an excellent league competitively when DU played there, but again, the geographic reality and sports mix differences eventually grated on everyone when Denver was there, both here and in the rest of the league. Those SBC schools had little identification here in Denver, and I'm sure few were very interested in seeing Denver play around the South.

Denver is a tough, oversaturated sports market for a small private school, where most of the DU students (and many of the state's residents) are from out of state and didn't grow up cheering for the Pioneers. Competing with eight pro teams here (NFL,MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS, NLL, MLL and ECHL/AHL), and four larger public D-I schools within an hours' drive (CU, CSU, Air Force and UNC) and all those ski areas is no picnic, either. Fans in Denver mostly would like to see DU play schools like Colorado, Colorado State, Wyoming, Air Force, New Mexico, Nebraska, Utah or Utah State, but games with those schools these days are pretty rare, given all those schools are already in larger leagues and DU is a private with no football to offer. DU fans also turn out for hockey and lacrosse in greater numbers than hoops, and many of the powerhouse brands in those sports draw very well here, too.

All in all, if DU were ever to get really good in basketball, the MWC or the Big East would be the best options DU could hope for as an all-sports conference, but those are pipe dreams for DU right now...

As usual, well said Puck.
08-06-2018 11:19 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

The MVC will NOT invite a DII move-up. You can take that to the bank.
08-06-2018 11:29 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-04-2018 04:35 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-04-2018 09:34 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UMKC can aspire for the MVC all they want but that isn't going to bring an invitation their way. If the Summit expressed interest they'd be foolish not to go back.

UMKC AD has a tough task ahead. Fans believe they belong in AAC.
http://umkcroos.proboards.com/thread/1089/where-belong

wow, that poster has lost touch with reality. I'm pretty sure, with all the budget issues UMKC have reached out to the Summit and so far the Summit has not bitten. The poster may want to take that into consideration when posting his 10 year AAC plan.
08-06-2018 12:21 PM
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seaking4steel Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
(08-06-2018 11:29 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

The MVC will NOT invite a DII move-up. You can take that to the bank.

If they wanted NKU why wouldn't they have added them when they were still D2?
08-06-2018 12:22 PM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
If the MVC goes to 12, Murray State is a slam dunk and for 12 if it was me, I would go with UIC. Double down on the Chicago market, they play all the MVC sports, academic rep is outstanding.

Summit needs to make a strike for Milwaukee and Green Bay if UIC went to the MVC.
08-06-2018 07:19 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: Why did the Sun Belt add Denver?
While Denver would much rather be in the MWC or the WCC the Summit, with their hockey rivals, is probably the next best fit.
08-07-2018 05:19 PM
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