ORU has shot at MVC

(08-03-2018 04:04 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  ORU has shot at MVC

I think that's unlikely, as they're now a geographic outlier. I think UMKC would be a far better choice.

The other problem with ORU is that while the private vs public thing in the MVC is a real thing, I don't think the privates really want ORU with them.

Here's the teams that I think would be better fits for the MVC than ORU, even before you get into the culture issue

UMKC
Nebraska - Omaha
Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Detroit Mercy
IUPUI


All would go to the Valley if asked. All are in better markets and are better located. And UMKC would solve Missouri State's travel partner problem just as easily as ORU. And I'm just curious, does Missouri State even WANT Oral Roberts in the conference? They do play each other.

BTW, ORU has a tiny endowment, a small enrollment, hasn't won a NIT or NCAA basketball game since 1975, hasn't been to the NCAAs in 10 years.

ORU is basically wholly controlled by one benefactor, Mart Green, who at one time (perhaps still today) controls all of the Board Seats at ORU. And they've had some pretty spectacular scandals too.

And just so we're clear...ORU basketball has sucked recently.

Here's ORU's recent resume vs D1.

2017-18 8-20 plus a loss to a Division II team with 2 wins coming vs 20 loss teams....wins vs winning record teams 1
2016-17 6-22 with 0 wins coming vs 20 loss teams...wins vs winning record teams 3
2015-16 12-17 with 0 wins coming vs 20 loss teams...wins vs winning record teams 5
2014-15 17-15 with 5 wins coming vs 20 loss teams....wins vs winning record teams 3
2013-14 15-16 with 7 wins coming vs 20 loss teams...wins vs winning record teams 3
2012-13 18-15 with 9 wins coming vs 20 loss teams...wins vs winning record teams 4

They did have a good year in 2011-12, losing in the first round of the NIT.

And when you get into the actual wins in that group, you'll find that ORU was snacking on the absolute dregs of D1.

Total D1 wins 76. Wins vs 20 loss teams (mainly 20 loss teams from the worst conferences too) 23. Wins against teams finishing with a D1 winning record....19. Roughly 3 wins per year over teams with winning records.

Basically, ORU has Tulsa's and Missouri State's number, and that's about it.

----

On just about every single last metric, ORU matches up poorly with its potential competitors.

Basically they're broke, they're private, they're small, they're controversial, they're dependent upon 1 or perhaps 2 single individuals for financing, they're outside the current footprint, they'll never carry their market, and they suck in basketball. Not a good resume for ORU right now.

Like Tom as a poster but wonder if all this disdain for ORU is rooted in the two being extreme opposites politically. lol

ORU is in a rough stretch and carries baggage, but they’re mostly a model mid-major until that stretch.

Oral Roberts earned an at-large bid in 2012 and was in the bracket about to be publicly released. Andrew Nicholson stole the A10 autobid an hour before the selection show knocking them out.

Oral Roberts was one of the most dominant mid-majors in the country in the mid-2000s. 3 straight NCAAs highlighted by beating KU at Allen Fieldhouse the year before the Jayhawks won it all.

ORU’s budget would place 5th in the MVC. Their attendance is at a low watermark and would place 9th currently but just 6 years ago drew 9k against Oakland, 8600 against Western Illinois, etc. Like any mid-major they just need to win.

ORU’s 20 year stretch until the new President meddled:
‘96 18-9
‘97 21-7
‘98 19-12
‘99 17-11
‘00 13-17
‘01 10-19
‘02 17-14
‘03 18-10
‘04 17-11
‘05 25-8
‘06 21-12
‘07 23-11
‘08 24-9
‘09 16-15
‘10 20-13
‘11 19-16
‘12 27-7
‘13 20-15
‘14 17-16
‘15 19-15

ORU historically is lightyears ahead of UMKC, UNO, & IUPUI. If you ranked D1 schools 1-351 based on their modern history, ORU would be a solid 100-150 spots higher than that trio.

(08-03-2018 01:34 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Like Tom as a poster but wonder if all this disdain for ORU is rooted in the two being extreme opposites politically. lol

ORU is in a rough stretch and carries baggage, but they’re mostly a model mid-major until that stretch.

Oral Roberts earned an at-large bid in 2012 and was in the bracket about to be publicly released. Andrew Nicholson stole the A10 autobid an hour before the selection show knocking them out.

Oral Roberts was one of the most dominant mid-majors in the country in the mid-2000s. 3 straight NCAAs highlighted by beating KU at Allen Fieldhouse the year before the Jayhawks won it all.

ORU’s budget would place 5th in the MVC. Their attendance is at a low watermark and would place 9th currently but just 6 years ago drew 9k against Oakland, 8600 against Western Illinois, etc. Like any mid-major they just need to win.

ORU’s 20 year stretch until the new President meddled:
‘96 18-9
‘97 21-7
‘98 19-12
‘99 17-11
‘00 13-17
‘01 10-19
‘02 17-14
‘03 18-10
‘04 17-11
‘05 25-8
‘06 21-12
‘07 23-11
‘08 24-9
‘09 16-15
‘10 20-13
‘11 19-16
‘12 27-7
‘13 20-15
‘14 17-16
‘15 19-15

ORU historically is lightyears ahead of UMKC, UNO, & IUPUI. If you ranked D1 schools 1-351 based on their modern history, ORU would be a solid 100-150 spots higher than that trio.

The whole dynamic has changed at ORU. 10 years is a long time. Is it possible that the new President's 'meddling' is the result of their disastrous previous administration, now is basically beholden to the whims of one (or possibly two) single individuals?

Basically, the problem with ORU's history is that there's a question as to whether the pieces exist to compete at a high level anymore. Is Mart on board? Basically, he's the shot caller at ORU.

Past is past. Jacksonville University went to a Final Four, but they ain't going back. Heck LaSalle won an NCAA championship. So did UTEP. Doesn't matter if you're not able to get back there. Lets put together a league of GMU, Jacksonville, UNCC, UTEP, CCNY, LaSalle, St Bonaventure and see what that gets us. And lets face facts, ORU did have one good season when the ran the tables in the 29th best basketball conference. They've stunk the joint up since moving to the Summit.

Maybe if the MVC was desperate or had a primier team that was demanding they be admitted. Neither is the case. Who the hell wants them in the league? Who besides Missouri State recruits in Tulsa?

And the bigger problem is that.....ORU isn't getting better - but worse.

The final line on ORU is that they don't really do anything for the MVC at this point. And every other potential entrant, including a private religious school, does more than they do for the league. They're just another mouth to feed right now. And will probably be one for a while.

It's interesting that SoCalBobcat78 brought up Denver's men's basketball attendance in recent years. On paper, it looks like the WAC was a bigger draw than the Summit for Denver.

It's a bit more nuanced than those pure numbers would suggest. First, Denver hit it's playing zenith as a program in the D-I modern era in 2012-2013, when it shared the WAC regular season title in its one WAC season with 22 wins. DU also won it's only D-I postseason tournament game in the NIT that season. Since that time, DU has faded into mediocrity, and changed coaches as well as leagues, so some attendance has fallen off the bandwagon since then.

In that 2009-2013 era, DU was also "papering the house" with all kinds of kids-oriented ticket giveaways, with the goal of boosting hoops attendance to become more attractive to other conferences. That kind of activity has been drastically reduced in recent years, and the crowds have fallen back the 1,200-ish average that DU has had for most of it's years since going back to D-I in 1999.

(08-03-2018 03:33 PM)puck swami Wrote:  It's interesting that SoCalBobcat78 brought up Denver's men's basketball attendance in recent years. On paper, it looks like the WAC was a bigger draw than the Summit for Denver.

It's a bit more nuanced than those pure numbers would suggest. First, Denver hit it's playing zenith as a program in the D-I modern era in 2012-2013, when it shared the WAC regular season title in its one WAC season with 22 wins. DU also won it's only D-I postseason tournament game in the NIT that season. Since that time, DU has faded into mediocrity, and changed coaches as well as leagues, so some attendance has fallen off the bandwagon since then.

In that 2009-2013 era, DU was also "papering the house" with all kinds of kids-oriented ticket giveaways, with the goal of boosting hoops attendance to become more attractive to other conferences. That kind of activity has been drastically reduced in recent years, and the crowds have fallen back the 1,200-ish average that DU has had for most of it's years since going back to D-I in 1999.

I actually really enjoyed you guys being in the league. I think we all understand why it didn't work out with the Sun Belt and you guys. Really an issue of when NMSU left (a decision they surely regret greatly now).

What do you think about the WAC, as it currently is comprised vs the Summit as far as y'all's affiliation?

(08-03-2018 03:33 PM)puck swami Wrote:  It's interesting that SoCalBobcat78 brought up Denver's men's basketball attendance in recent years. On paper, it looks like the WAC was a bigger draw than the Summit for Denver.

It's a bit more nuanced than those pure numbers would suggest. First, Denver hit it's playing zenith as a program in the D-I modern era in 2012-2013, when it shared the WAC regular season title in its one WAC season with 22 wins. DU also won it's only D-I postseason tournament game in the NIT that season. Since that time, DU has faded into mediocrity, and changed coaches as well as leagues, so some attendance has fallen off the bandwagon since then.

In that 2009-2013 era, DU was also "papering the house" with all kinds of kids-oriented ticket giveaways, with the goal of boosting hoops attendance to become more attractive to other conferences. That kind of activity has been drastically reduced in recent years, and the crowds have fallen back the 1,200-ish average that DU has had for most of it's years since going back to D-I in 1999.

Didnt your awesome AD retire too

pionship

(08-02-2018 08:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Lets recap the WAC.

1) The school with a G5 FBS team that doesn't have an appropriate home for football or a high profile basketball home. They're a good team. They might get a bid in the Belt in the future.

2) the school who can't get into the 29th best basketball league with over a half dozen teams in their state.

3) A private business, or a 'non-profit" run by a for-profit corporation

4) A D2 moveup

5) Chicago friggin' state

6) A team that might have some regrets about leaving the Summit for the WAC (https://info.umkc.edu/unews/costly-wac-m...cs-budget/)

7) A school over a thousand miles from any other member who really hasn't done much. Good school and decent endowment though.

8) And Utah Valley. No issue with them.

---

And the league has huge travel costs and is inhernetly highly unstable. It isn't able to make strategic moves, but rather makes desperation moves. Either way, the WAC will always make room for Denver, but there's no guarantee the Summit would let them back if they left.

Again, you don't have it right:

1. NMSU is going to be fine as an independent. They have completed their 2019 schedule and are well on their way on the 2020 & 2021 schedules. They are not getting into the belt unless a school leaves. The basketball in the WAC is solid and of the 14 conferences with a higher RPI last season than the WAC, only the MWC would be a good fit that makes sense. The WAC is competitive and this season there are probably four teams that could win the championship. I personally think GCU is going to win the WAC title this year.

2. UTRGV was rejected by the Southland in 2011. They have not applied to the Southland since they joined the WAC. They are in a better basketball conference now.

3. GCU, profit or non-profit, has a good basketball program and a good athletic program with the best athletic facilities in the WAC.

4. Cal Baptist is another GCU. They have the facilities and the leadership. They are a D2 powerhouse that just moved up to D1 and they give the WAC a foothold in Southern California.

5. Chicago State is D1 and they do have new leadership, so maybe they turn it around. Membership is not always perfect, as we know in the Belt with ULM.

6. UMKC is entering their 6th year in the WAC. Another school with new leadership and if you listen to them, they want to get into the MVC. They need a five year plan to turn the athletic program around and get an invite to the MVC. Parking for a few years in the Summit, where they really don't want to be, makes no sense and would be costly. Moving to the Summit means a $250,000 entry fee and $1 million exit fee. They may have to add baseball to get back into the Summit. For a short stay in the Summit. UMKC was not happy in the Summit and the only reason they left was because the WAC paid the $250,000 exit fee from the Summit and waived the WAC $450,000 entry fee. That won't happen again.

7. Seattle is a long way from everyone. The WCC would be an ideal fit, but they have no interest. They hiring of Jim Hayford away from Eastern Washington in one year has turned that basketball program around. Hayford led EWU to a 26-9 record in 2014-2015 and an NCAA berth. He is considered one of the best offensive coaches in the country.

The travel out west is not easy. There are not a lot of bus trips. The markets are large and that helps. This discussion was about Denver, not the WAC. My basic point was that Denver could have stayed. Leaving the WAC for the Summit has not helped the basketball program.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree about the WAC vs the Summit

But I do have to set you straight on ULM vs Chicago State ULM is not Chicago State. ULM actually has a credible football team and decent basketball too. They do more with less. They're probably bowling and sending their basketball team to the post season next year. It will be their fourth trip in 5 years to postseason basketball and their second in six years in football.. They do more in the big dollar sports with an athletic budget of 14 million a year than Texas State does with an athletic budget over twice that (sorry - I couldn't resist - I know its your ADs fault - I hope you get rid of him and Withers too). Texas State did finish above ULM once since joining the Belt in mens basketball. In football, ULM is 3-2 vs Texas State. I actually think that Texas State should hire ULM's AD, who apparently can conjure up miracles out of no money and subpar facilties. Imagine what he could do in San Marcos with a real budget. I actually respect ULM. They make it work. Give them a budget of 6 million and they'll find a way to make that work too. Lord only knows how they do it. Quite frankly if USA needed a new AD, ULM would be the first place I'd look for a replacement. Because that's a really well managed Athletic Department.

ULM's budget constraints are only an issue to the extent that it prevents them from being competitive. They're plenty competitive. Heck in the last 11 season they have 4 P5 wins including a win at Alabama. Are they a premier program. Nope. Are they the bottom program. Not in the Belt. And they wouldn't be the bottom team in CUSA or the MAC or the MWC either.

Chicago State is the absolutely worst program in all of D1 in the last 4 years. Here's the D1 wins

2017-18....1
2016-17....2
2015-16....1
2014-15....5
2013-14....11

ULM won 67 D1 games during the last 5 seasons. Chicago State won 20. Chicago State crushes the conference's RPI. Absolutely crushes it. That's two games that even if a tournament seeking team beats by 20 points, they'll still drop. And that's another reason why Denver is probably better off in the Summit. There aren't any hopeless teams in that league.

Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

No idea what conference your proposing these teams for, but

The Sun Belt ain't adding anyone. And even if they did, they're adding football teams (and NMSU still could get back in if they needed a team). The Belt doesn't want private schools and they're pretty adamant about that. They also aren't looking to expand the footprint.

If youre talking about the MVC. Murray State - maybe, but I think Wisconsin Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy are the best options. Maybe Belmont would beat out Detroit Mercy - but both would be better adds than ORU. Denver would be also a better add than ORU. The MVC isn't adding D2 moveups.

If you're talking about the WAC...They'll take anyone at this point but. Bellarmine is tiny and poor and is located far away from the rest of the teams (Chicago State isn't going to hang on in D1). NKU, Belmont and Murray State aren't going to go to the WAC, Drury - maybe. Lindenwood - maybe.

Why not UMSL if you're looking at teams in the Midwest? 281 million endowment, 16k students, in St Louis. Only one team to compete with for D1 basketball too.

As far as better teams than ORU from the perspective of the MVC, I think that ORU would probably be more attractive than the D2 schools, based upon facilities and legacy of D1 membership. Unless the University Presidents balk at ORU membership.

But none of the teams on your list are going to make Denver see any confernce more attractive.

(08-04-2018 03:00 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

No idea what conference your proposing these teams for, but

The Sun Belt ain't adding anyone. And even if they did, they're adding football teams (and NMSU still could get back in if they needed a team). The Belt doesn't want private schools and they're pretty adamant about that. They also aren't looking to expand the footprint.

If youre talking about the MVC. Murray State - maybe, but I think Wisconsin Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy are the best options. Maybe Belmont would beat out Detroit Mercy - but both would be better adds than ORU. Denver would be also a better add than ORU. The MVC isn't adding D2 moveups.

If you're talking about the WAC...They'll take anyone at this point but. Bellarmine is tiny and poor and is located far away from the rest of the teams (Chicago State isn't going to hang on in D1). NKU, Belmont and Murray State aren't going to go to the WAC, Drury - maybe. Lindenwood - maybe.

Why not UMSL if you're looking at teams in the Midwest? 281 million endowment, 16k students, in St Louis. Only one team to compete with for D1 basketball too.

As far as better teams than ORU from the perspective of the MVC, I think that ORU would probably be more attractive than the D2 schools, based upon facilities and legacy of D1 membership. Unless the University Presidents balk at ORU membership.

But none of the teams on your list are going to make Denver see any confernce more attractive.

MVC that I am talking about.
Bellarmine got a lot of donations and building up their facilities which compare between them and Detroit Mercy? Bellarmine have a much better facilities looking than some of the privates including Detroit Mercy. They are adding women's LAX which they want it to be in D1, and looking to add a football team, and building an FCS size stadium. They bought land to do all these projects that they started a few years ago. They are already D1 in Men's LAX as an affiliate to the Southern Conference.

Missouri State would look at joining C-USA. They have turned down invites from the SBC. SBC would add two, and they are looking at Missouri State and Chattanooga.

MVC have been flirting to invite Murray State last year.

Been some talks that Lindenwood wants D1. They were a former for-profit school like Grand Canyon, but dropped it several years ago. They have the money to move to D1. Their athletics are not great, but they are in the Saint Louis tv market. UMSL seems they don't have the money to go D1 yet, Lindenwood does. Lindeonwood is already D1 in several sports.

(08-04-2018 03:20 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 03:00 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

No idea what conference your proposing these teams for, but

The Sun Belt ain't adding anyone. And even if they did, they're adding football teams (and NMSU still could get back in if they needed a team). The Belt doesn't want private schools and they're pretty adamant about that. They also aren't looking to expand the footprint.

If youre talking about the MVC. Murray State - maybe, but I think Wisconsin Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy are the best options. Maybe Belmont would beat out Detroit Mercy - but both would be better adds than ORU. Denver would be also a better add than ORU. The MVC isn't adding D2 moveups.

If you're talking about the WAC...They'll take anyone at this point but. Bellarmine is tiny and poor and is located far away from the rest of the teams (Chicago State isn't going to hang on in D1). NKU, Belmont and Murray State aren't going to go to the WAC, Drury - maybe. Lindenwood - maybe.

Why not UMSL if you're looking at teams in the Midwest? 281 million endowment, 16k students, in St Louis. Only one team to compete with for D1 basketball too.

As far as better teams than ORU from the perspective of the MVC, I think that ORU would probably be more attractive than the D2 schools, based upon facilities and legacy of D1 membership. Unless the University Presidents balk at ORU membership.

But none of the teams on your list are going to make Denver see any confernce more attractive.

MVC that I am talking about.
Bellarmine got a lot of donations and building up their facilities which compare between them and Detroit Mercy? Bellarmine have a much better facilities looking than some of the privates including Detroit Mercy. They are adding women's LAX which they want it to be in D1, and looking to add a football team, and building an FCS size stadium. They bought land to do all these projects that they started a few years ago. They are already D1 in Men's LAX as an affiliate to the Southern Conference.

Missouri State would look at joining C-USA. They have turned down invites from the SBC. SBC would add two, and they are looking at Missouri State and Chattanooga.

MVC have been flirting to invite Murray State last year.

Been some talks that Lindenwood wants D1. They were a former for-profit school like Grand Canyon, but dropped it several years ago. They have the money to move to D1. Their athletics are not great, but they are in the Saint Louis tv market. UMSL seems they don't have the money to go D1 yet, Lindenwood does. Lindeonwood is already D1 in several sports.

David I get you have fun with your random lists but don't make **** up.

Missouri State doesn't want FBS football. The Sun Belt is a great geographic fit with A-State and UALR bus trips but the university DOES NOT WANT FBS FOOTBALL and CUSA isn't worth their time unless they add FBS football.

UMKC can aspire for the MVC all they want but that isn't going to bring an invitation their way. If the Summit expressed interest they'd be foolish not to go back.

Realistically only 4 WAC schools are legitimate flight risks:

Chicago St--dropping sports
UMKC--Summit
NMSU--an FBS league
UTRGV--Southland (requires FB)

(08-04-2018 09:34 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UMKC can aspire for the MVC all they want but that isn't going to bring an invitation their way. If the Summit expressed interest they'd be foolish not to go back.

Realistically only 4 WAC schools are legitimate flight risks:

Chicago St--dropping sports
UMKC--Summit
NMSU--an FBS league
UTRGV--Southland (requires FB)

True about escaping the WAC -- if you can, do so. I don't think there are any FBS conference invites coming NMSU's way any time soon, though. The WAC schools are there mostly because no one else really wants them.

(08-04-2018 03:20 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 03:00 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

No idea what conference your proposing these teams for, but

The Sun Belt ain't adding anyone. And even if they did, they're adding football teams (and NMSU still could get back in if they needed a team). The Belt doesn't want private schools and they're pretty adamant about that. They also aren't looking to expand the footprint.

If youre talking about the MVC. Murray State - maybe, but I think Wisconsin Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy are the best options. Maybe Belmont would beat out Detroit Mercy - but both would be better adds than ORU. Denver would be also a better add than ORU. The MVC isn't adding D2 moveups.

If you're talking about the WAC...They'll take anyone at this point but. Bellarmine is tiny and poor and is located far away from the rest of the teams (Chicago State isn't going to hang on in D1). NKU, Belmont and Murray State aren't going to go to the WAC, Drury - maybe. Lindenwood - maybe.

Why not UMSL if you're looking at teams in the Midwest? 281 million endowment, 16k students, in St Louis. Only one team to compete with for D1 basketball too.

As far as better teams than ORU from the perspective of the MVC, I think that ORU would probably be more attractive than the D2 schools, based upon facilities and legacy of D1 membership. Unless the University Presidents balk at ORU membership.

But none of the teams on your list are going to make Denver see any confernce more attractive.

MVC that I am talking about.
Bellarmine got a lot of donations and building up their facilities which compare between them and Detroit Mercy? Bellarmine have a much better facilities looking than some of the privates including Detroit Mercy. They are adding women's LAX which they want it to be in D1, and looking to add a football team, and building an FCS size stadium. They bought land to do all these projects that they started a few years ago. They are already D1 in Men's LAX as an affiliate to the Southern Conference.

Missouri State would look at joining C-USA. They have turned down invites from the SBC. SBC would add two, and they are looking at Missouri State and Chattanooga.

MVC have been flirting to invite Murray State last year.

Been some talks that Lindenwood wants D1. They were a former for-profit school like Grand Canyon, but dropped it several years ago. They have the money to move to D1. Their athletics are not great, but they are in the Saint Louis tv market. UMSL seems they don't have the money to go D1 yet, Lindenwood does. Lindeonwood is already D1 in several sports.

David, you really need to provide credible links for your claims. Bellarmine talked about adding football and women's lacrosse and building a 2,500 seat football stadium 2-to-3 years ago. There has been no new teams added or D1-level facility improvements. Bellarmine having a D1 men's lacrosse team is irrelevant. Lindenwood is not looking at D1. They may be in the Saint Louis market but that doesn't mean they get any media attention. Their 3 sports that play at the D1 level do so because those sports do not have a D2 championship.

(08-04-2018 10:38 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 09:34 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UMKC can aspire for the MVC all they want but that isn't going to bring an invitation their way. If the Summit expressed interest they'd be foolish not to go back.

Realistically only 4 WAC schools are legitimate flight risks:

Chicago St--dropping sports
UMKC--Summit
NMSU--an FBS league
UTRGV--Southland (requires FB)

True about escaping the WAC -- if you can, do so. I don't think there are any FBS conference invites coming NMSU's way any time soon, though. The WAC schools are there mostly because no one else really wants them.

UMKC just had a study not long ago to see if they should drop their athletics to D2. They aren't MVC material right now. #1 priority for them has to be escaping the WAC and their high travel costs.

If Seattle can get better and Gonzaga bolts from the WCC I think they can be a possible replacement candidate.

(08-04-2018 11:08 AM)AZcats Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 03:20 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 03:00 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

No idea what conference your proposing these teams for, but

The Sun Belt ain't adding anyone. And even if they did, they're adding football teams (and NMSU still could get back in if they needed a team). The Belt doesn't want private schools and they're pretty adamant about that. They also aren't looking to expand the footprint.

If youre talking about the MVC. Murray State - maybe, but I think Wisconsin Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy are the best options. Maybe Belmont would beat out Detroit Mercy - but both would be better adds than ORU. Denver would be also a better add than ORU. The MVC isn't adding D2 moveups.

If you're talking about the WAC...They'll take anyone at this point but. Bellarmine is tiny and poor and is located far away from the rest of the teams (Chicago State isn't going to hang on in D1). NKU, Belmont and Murray State aren't going to go to the WAC, Drury - maybe. Lindenwood - maybe.

Why not UMSL if you're looking at teams in the Midwest? 281 million endowment, 16k students, in St Louis. Only one team to compete with for D1 basketball too.

As far as better teams than ORU from the perspective of the MVC, I think that ORU would probably be more attractive than the D2 schools, based upon facilities and legacy of D1 membership. Unless the University Presidents balk at ORU membership.

But none of the teams on your list are going to make Denver see any confernce more attractive.

MVC that I am talking about.
Bellarmine got a lot of donations and building up their facilities which compare between them and Detroit Mercy? Bellarmine have a much better facilities looking than some of the privates including Detroit Mercy. They are adding women's LAX which they want it to be in D1, and looking to add a football team, and building an FCS size stadium. They bought land to do all these projects that they started a few years ago. They are already D1 in Men's LAX as an affiliate to the Southern Conference.

Missouri State would look at joining C-USA. They have turned down invites from the SBC. SBC would add two, and they are looking at Missouri State and Chattanooga.

MVC have been flirting to invite Murray State last year.

Been some talks that Lindenwood wants D1. They were a former for-profit school like Grand Canyon, but dropped it several years ago. They have the money to move to D1. Their athletics are not great, but they are in the Saint Louis tv market. UMSL seems they don't have the money to go D1 yet, Lindenwood does. Lindeonwood is already D1 in several sports.

David, you really need to provide credible links for your claims. Bellarmine talked about adding football and women's lacrosse and building a 2,500 seat football stadium 2-to-3 years ago. There has been no new teams added or D1-level facility improvements. Bellarmine having a D1 men's lacrosse team is irrelevant. Lindenwood is not looking at D1. They may be in the Saint Louis market but that doesn't mean they get any media attention. Their 3 sports that play at the D1 level do so because those sports do not have a D2 championship.

LOL. I lived in St Louis for 2 years as an adult and a sports fan and I didn't know where they were.

(08-04-2018 11:56 AM)seaking4steel Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 10:38 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 09:34 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UMKC can aspire for the MVC all they want but that isn't going to bring an invitation their way. If the Summit expressed interest they'd be foolish not to go back.

Realistically only 4 WAC schools are legitimate flight risks:

Chicago St--dropping sports
UMKC--Summit
NMSU--an FBS league
UTRGV--Southland (requires FB)

True about escaping the WAC -- if you can, do so. I don't think there are any FBS conference invites coming NMSU's way any time soon, though. The WAC schools are there mostly because no one else really wants them.

UMKC just had a study not long ago to see if they should drop their athletics to D2. They aren't MVC material right now. #1 priority for them has to be escaping the WAC and their high travel costs.

If Seattle can get better and Gonzaga bolts from the WCC I think they can be a possible replacement candidate.

No, I don't think the MVC is interested in UMKC. They'd be lucky to get back into the Summit.

(08-04-2018 09:24 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 03:20 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 03:00 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-04-2018 02:19 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Northern Kentucky
Murray State
Belmont
Drury (in case Missouri State gets an invite into FBS that is not Sun Belt Conference.)
Bellarmine
Lindenwood Those schools are much better fit into the MVC better than oral Roberts.

No idea what conference your proposing these teams for, but

The Sun Belt ain't adding anyone. And even if they did, they're adding football teams (and NMSU still could get back in if they needed a team). The Belt doesn't want private schools and they're pretty adamant about that. They also aren't looking to expand the footprint.

If youre talking about the MVC. Murray State - maybe, but I think Wisconsin Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy are the best options. Maybe Belmont would beat out Detroit Mercy - but both would be better adds than ORU. Denver would be also a better add than ORU. The MVC isn't adding D2 moveups.

If you're talking about the WAC...They'll take anyone at this point but. Bellarmine is tiny and poor and is located far away from the rest of the teams (Chicago State isn't going to hang on in D1). NKU, Belmont and Murray State aren't going to go to the WAC, Drury - maybe. Lindenwood - maybe.

Why not UMSL if you're looking at teams in the Midwest? 281 million endowment, 16k students, in St Louis. Only one team to compete with for D1 basketball too.

As far as better teams than ORU from the perspective of the MVC, I think that ORU would probably be more attractive than the D2 schools, based upon facilities and legacy of D1 membership. Unless the University Presidents balk at ORU membership.

But none of the teams on your list are going to make Denver see any confernce more attractive.

MVC that I am talking about.
Bellarmine got a lot of donations and building up their facilities which compare between them and Detroit Mercy? Bellarmine have a much better facilities looking than some of the privates including Detroit Mercy. They are adding women's LAX which they want it to be in D1, and looking to add a football team, and building an FCS size stadium. They bought land to do all these projects that they started a few years ago. They are already D1 in Men's LAX as an affiliate to the Southern Conference.

Missouri State would look at joining C-USA. They have turned down invites from the SBC. SBC would add two, and they are looking at Missouri State and Chattanooga.

MVC have been flirting to invite Murray State last year.

Been some talks that Lindenwood wants D1. They were a former for-profit school like Grand Canyon, but dropped it several years ago. They have the money to move to D1. Their athletics are not great, but they are in the Saint Louis tv market. UMSL seems they don't have the money to go D1 yet, Lindenwood does. Lindeonwood is already D1 in several sports.

David I get you have fun with your random lists but don't make **** up.

Missouri State doesn't want FBS football. The Sun Belt is a great geographic fit with A-State and UALR bus trips but the university DOES NOT WANT FBS FOOTBALL and CUSA isn't worth their time unless they add FBS football.

This. Also, Chattanooga isn't really on the Belts radar at this time, nor do I think UTC really wants to spend FBS money. They do have a stadium, but they only have 11k undergrads. They appear to be happy in FCS.

The Belt is largely happy right now. There's no need to dilute the conference further with moveups. Also, note that since TV money for G5 conferences is pretty much a thing of the past, there's no point in going for 'marketz'. Its about rivalries, attendence, and product quality. The great move up to FBS is over. No more room at the inn right now.